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@Jyn Ryvia making the argument that we are selfish or hypocrites would perhaps be easier if the good of the Waystone project were not concerned with literally saving the world, just saying.

One assumes the Runesmith's Guild exists on the same planet yes?
that Is my point yes: I've decided that waystones is worth more then runesmiths(well half? of them).

selfishness has nothing to do with it: I'm very selflessly throwing them under the bus for my goals of saving the world.

And I don't think picking waystones is more important is hypocritical: I think arguing that giving throek ammo is going to be for the good of the people that he will shoot in the head is hypocritical: because that's not why we are doing it, we are doing for are own goals.

what i think you got confused by is my last comment about cult leader x.

what i met was 'don't be surprised if we selflessly take advantage of others selfishness.'
 
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that Is my point yes: I've decided that waystones is worth more then runesmiths(well half? of them).

selfishness has nothing to do with it: I'm very selflessly throwing them under the bus for my goals of saving the world.

And I don't think picking waystones is more important is hypocritical: I think arguing that giving throek ammo is going to be for the good of the people that he will shoot in the head is hypocritical: because that's not way we are doing it, we are doing for are own goals.

what i think you got confused by is my last comment about cult leader x.

what i met was 'don't be surprised if we selflessly take advantage of others selfishness.'

It will not be for the good of the people he will shoot in the head, but it can be very strongly argued that it will be for the good of the people left behind. At the end of the day the Guild of Runesmiths needs reform, I do not think this is a contentious argument. They are after al a dying breed and they are becoming irrelevant to the dwarf way of life.

Runesmiths are I would judge only about as useful for the Karaz Ankor as the Colleges are to the Empire. If every single runesmith in existence came down with the galloping Nurgle shits and died it would be a blow, but it would not spell their end. They would still have canons, They would still have gyrocopters and steam, they would survive.

That is what Thorek is fighting against, he is not the scheming politician trying to get ahead, he is a artisan and a priest staring at the obsolescence of his whole craft and trying to save what he can.
 
To be honest, I'm not convinced the runesmiths are going to go slayer. Thorek is giving them an ultimatum—they are failing their ancestors and must change to be better.

When High King Thorgrim was confronted with the same realisation, he didn't go slayer—he changed for the better. And I suspect many Runesmiths will follow both the High King and Runelord Thorek in changing as well. This is a good thing, and I'm not sure why people are claiming that this is going to be disaster.
 
Why isn't Thorek trying to convince them to pass on their secrets /find worthy apprentices, instead of contributing to the problem by killing what little Runelore is left? We should be trying to preserve Runes, not get those that carry them killed. This should be obvious.
You think he hasn't been trying? Thorek is immensely politically active.

Making the point of how wrong the elders who say "Don't share your secrets, don't try to advance runecraft, don't change anything" were when it came to Karag Dum is yet another way to try and get the younger runelords who're only 300 years old to change their ways. Because at the moment they're doing what dwarves tend to do: copying their elders. Only if those elders are forced to admit to an error will those who worship them change their approach.
 
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Not really, he's noted as being a political animal. He's going to change it in a way he thinks is better. Which includes multiple Slayer Runelords. This is obviously bad. I don't understand how people can say it's not.



Look, these all run together and seem to say the same thing: It's Thorek or the Runelords not sharing. But those are not the only options at all. The optimal solution isn't getting more runelords to die without passing on their secrets in the hope that new ones will be better about it, it's to get the Runelords not passing their secrets to pass them on, not lose even their knowledge as well.

This should be obvious. The best thing for the Karaz Ankor and the Empire and Everyone of the Good Guyz isn't dead Runelords, it's runelords with apprentices passing on their stuff.

If your answer to "How do we preserve the secrets of our ancestors" is kill the current generation so the nex one is better, your solution is terrible. Like, the High King just changed his opinion. Consider that.

Why isn't Thorek trying to convince them to pass on their secrets /find worthy apprentices, instead of contributing to the problem by killing what little Runelore is left? We should be trying to preserve Runes, not get those that carry them killed. This should be obvious.

This is a stupid, Grudge Dwarf solution. Don't help him.
And that's being charitable and not calling it an assassination attempt on his competition.
Remember, he is the rare politically savvy dawi.

The right solution is to convince them they are wrong, if not about the lost Karag, then about passing on the Runes. Turning them Slayer just makes the Runelore forever lost. That's only a victory for Thorek as he removes competition and makes himself and his students more prominent and indispensable.

That's not good for anyone, or the Waystones. Hell, by doing this we're removing the very people that may be hoarding said Waystone knowledge instead of trying to get it to work for us.
I don't think they'll actually go slayer over this, it'll just be a big political shakeup, but by all means explain your plan to convince the most conservative members of the most conservative society of the most conservative race on the planet to change their most deeply held traditions and literal religious obligations to something that won't see that knowledge lost in the long run, with less fallout, and I will gladly switch my vote.
 
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Well, he'll try, anyway.

This could still end up like our stint in the Stirland Watch.

Oh, I'm not convinced he'll succeed, just that it's a) a goal the thread has been talking about for literal years, only to reluctantly concede that Mathilde has no way of influencing the Runesmith Guild and b) he's going to try anyway even without Mathilde.
 
Well if he fails then he goes slayer, but he will still be pledged to help us. Going slayer does not free a dwarf of all oaths after all, so even at worst we still get his help.
... Yeah? It's all a net benefit for Mathilde's project. I'm not arguing that, or anything to do with Slayerhood.

I'm just saying that just because Thorek thinks he can shatter the Runesmith guilds and put them back together better afterwards isn't proof that he can. He might spend a lot of time and effort and get nowhere against cultural inertia.
 
See, I don't think of Imperial Dwarves as "Dwarves that are from the Empire". I think of Imperial Dwarves being their own separate culture, like Norse Dwarves or Chaos Dwarves or Karak Dwarves. Mathilde might be a part of Imperial culture, but she's never interacted with Imperial Dwarf culture, which is, in my mind, a different thing altogether.
I'm very sure that Imperial Dwarves have not just one but multiple expat subcultures. There's the "hill" Dwarves that have lived there since before the Empire was a thing and then swore fealty to it without breaking up their own societies. There's the various Dwarven Clans that over the centuries of the existence of the Empire left their Karaks and the Karaz Ankor for one reason or another and joined the Empire. There's individual Expat and/or Clanless Dwarves with or without families that chose to live in the Empire rather than being second class citizen or wilderness hermits. Some of them might have gotten adopted by more established Expat communities while others did not, but might have formed new ones. And then there's any Dwarves or groups of Dwarves which, for whatever reason, got kicked out of their Imperial Dwarf Clans and relocated internally, twice banished but never in a way that mattered to Humans. And maybe there's even a handful of Dwarves that live directly among Humans and may even have been raised by them in part or in full. Mathilde would belong to that last group, except even more so, what with being born in a Human body and not knowing about her "true" Dwarven nature until she was a (young) adult.
 
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It will not be for the good of the people he will shoot in the head, but it can be very strongly argued that it will be for the good of the people left behind. At the end of the day the Guild of Runesmiths needs reform, I do not think this is a contentious argument. They are after al a dying breed and they are becoming irrelevant to the dwarf way of life.

Runesmiths are I would judge only about as useful for the Karaz Ankor as the Colleges are to the Empire. If every single runesmith in existence came down with the galloping Nurgle shits and died it would be a blow, but it would not spell their end. They would still have canons, They would still have gyrocopters and steam, they would survive.

That is what Thorek is fighting against, he is not the scheming politician trying to get ahead, he is a artisan and a priest staring at the obsolescence of his whole craft and trying to save what he can.
I'm less than confident that the Karaz Ankor would survive the RG dying. Even beyond how useful runes are, it'd leave them with zero recourse against hostile mages other than 'shoot it'.
 
It will not be for the good of the people he will shoot in the head, but it can be very strongly argued that it will be for the good of the people left behind. At the end of the day the Guild of Runesmiths needs reform, I do not think this is a contentious argument. They are after al a dying breed and they are becoming irrelevant to the dwarf way of life.

Runesmiths are I would judge only about as useful for the Karaz Ankor as the Colleges are to the Empire. If every single runesmith in existence came down with the galloping Nurgle shits and died it would be a blow, but it would not spell their end. They would still have canons, They would still have gyrocopters and steam, they would survive.

That is what Thorek is fighting against, he is not the scheming politician trying to get ahead, he is a artisan and a priest staring at the obsolescence of his whole craft and trying to save what he can.
And that's all well and good, maybe right, maybe wrong.

but it's not why we are agreeing to what we agreeing to.

its a post justification (that's maybe right, maybe wrong) to not feel bad about cutting a deal for our own agenda.

helping him is payment: let's not pretend otherwise: we went to him for something unrelated and this is his price.

I just want that to be clear: because this is only the first deal we will be making, and post-justification of your own choices gets pathetic if we do it for every deal.

We are choicing to mess with the rune smiths and imperial dwarfs for our own ends (grander or otherwise)

if the consequences are worse then we thought they would be it would be I don't want people convincing themselves that 'we had good intentions' or if it went better then hoped that 'it's how we planned it!'

because that's not the case.
 
I'm less than confident that the Karaz Ankor would survive the RG dying. Even beyond how useful runes are, it'd leave them with zero recourse against hostile mages other than 'shoot it'.
Losing some runic knowledge won't remove the ability of the descendants of Thungni to sense and push against magic. Rhunkit can sense magical events just fine.

If all runic knowledge was lost (aside from the very basics that the rhunkit know) there would still be dawi with the inherent ability to repel magic - and they would still be able to train that ability.
 
And that's all well and good, maybe right, maybe wrong.

but it's not why we are agreeing to what we agreeing to.

its a post justification (that's maybe right, maybe wrong) to not feel bad about cutting a deal for our own agenda.

helping him is payment: let's not pretend otherwise: we went to him for something unrelated and this is his price.

I just want that to be clear: because this is only the first deal we will be making, and post-justification of your own choices gets pathetic if we do it for every deal.

We are choicing to mess with the rune smiths and imperial dwarfs for our own ends (grander or otherwise)

if the consequences are worse then we thought they would be it would be I don't want people convincing themselves that 'we had good intentions' or if it went better then hoped that 'it's how we planned it!'

because that's not the case.

Reasons do not matter, results do. If things go bad than that was the price of the project's advancement, but in this case the price may be no price at all. Reality is not always a zero sum game.
 
mhm, you know. ya being reminded that getting other groups to join us in the project and them demanding a deal to be made has me thinking.

I forget the name but the group of Hedge mages in Middenhiem province of Ulric I believe dying out due to being oofed by a necromancer they killed of and simultaneously being persecuted by Ulric's group and bnot accepting aid of other hedge mage groups due to them worshipping different gods.

Not saying it's a good idea, but ugh, if my memory is corect on such a group then their demands are going to be quite hefty I can imagine if we ever go to them for knowledge on waystones.

Stopping the persecution of their people in by forces in Middenhiem whether they be mercenery, state, religous forces? Acceptance of their group to some extant by the powers that be in Middenhiem and a grab for power politically speaking? A deal with the colleges which would be against the articles but very tempting?

Hoh boi, considering their pride I'd think they'll demand much for aid in the waystone project which would weaken Middenhiem and the Ulrican position by much is why i'm weary of doing deals with such a group with the whole Ulric vs Sigmar cult fued going on but would be very interested in such a plot and getting insight on such a group if we go head first and negotiate with them.
 
helping him is payment: let's not pretend otherwise: we went to him for something unrelated and this is his price.
His price is one thing I already felt was right, and another that seems like the right thing to do now that we know about it.

That's why the vote is so one-sided, because he's asking us to do things that many of us already want to do - they just weren't priorities.

[x] [ARM] Amputee
[x] [THOREK] Both
 
Reasons do not matter, results do. If things go bad than that was the price of the project's advancement, but in this case the price may be no price at all. Reality is not always a zero sum game.
What are you even arguing anymore? I was never taking about zero sum games or intent vs rusults

I even said 'I'm hoping and hopeful it will go well'

I was arguing against self delusion and post justification.
 
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