While it is true that the authority of the Colleges technically derives from the emperor, it should be noted that the power of the Colleges comes from them being well magicians. How many beastmen o(r Sigmarite flagellates) can one Bright wizard lord incinerate if they so choose? A lot. Power must be considered in terms of what the Colleges can do, subtle and overt, not just in terms of who has the most social influence by tradition.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
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While it is true that the authority of the Colleges technically derives from the emperor, it should be noted that the power of the Colleges comes from them being well magicians. How many beastmen o(r Sigmarite flagellates) can one Bright wizard lord incinerate if they so choose? A lot. Power must be considered in terms of what the Colleges can do, subtle and overt, not just in terms of who has the most social influence by tradition.
From what Mathilde has seen and heard so far, the Faniour are more Asrai-ish and the Toriour are more Asur-ish.
Codex
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Except we're not talking about power in the literal "I have Magic and can do stuff with it" sense alone are we? I'm discussing the social and political pressures exerted on the college that Magnus deliberately inflicted on the Colleges. The balance of power is very delicate, and disrupting it with blatant moves can cause the whole system to crumble. Notice the wording of some of these articles of example:
The wording is important here because the actions of the colleges are laid out here. The first loyalty is to the laws and ideals of the Empire, including the Articles, THEN the Emperor, then the Supreme Patriarch, then the laws of their order, then the patriarch, then the authorities, then the Order. They may not obstruct in malice or financial or political gain the rulings of the Emperor, which is a very broad statement, and they must followed the laws. But there's more:
No Magister may cast spells in public outside of war without permission from the Emperor, Electors or a legitimate employer, you can skirt around this rule by not performing magic in the public eye, but you must also skirt around other laws I will mention soon. Also notice the very careful wording of Article 8. The Colleges may not obstruct the rulings of the Emperor, but no such thing is stated for the Electors, and article 8 simply states that you must "Respond favorably" to the "reasonable requests" of an Elector. There's a clear gap here where it's made clear that the Emperor holds a great degree of power over the College and they can't mess with him unless it's for the good of the Empire, but no such thing applies to the Electors. "Favorable Response" can be just a "yup I heard your message, but I'm busy right now".
Then there's this article, which is honestly kind of blatant. The colleges must be ready to render service to the armies "unless such service aids in the seceding of an Imperial Province, cause overt harm to the Electoral System, or to the authority of the Emperor who resides upon Sigmar's Throne, or to the unity of purpose and identity that marks Sigmar's Empire". There are rules that explicitly disallow military involvement of the Magisters in very specific circumstances, and nearly all of them reinforce the Emperor's control over the Empire.
This is simple, Magisters are not allowed to be employed by enemies of the Empire or by someone that would lead to them breaking any of these articles.
And here is the kicker, the big big BIG article. This is what Regimand used to skirt around the Articles of Imperial Magic when he assassinated the Empress. Regimand did obstruct the government of the Empire by killing the Empress and the unborn heir to the Empire, but Article 2 says "may not obstruct the rule of the Empire in malice or financial and political gain" and article 15 here explicitly says that the articles are rendered null and void if the Magisters fail in their authority to counter "anti-imperial machinations, practices, peoples and creatures that are beyond the means of civil authorities and Sigmar's Templars to counter".
The Colleges have a lot of power yes, but all that power is useless if they violate the articles in a way that could be directly pointed to as a way to disrupt them. Except, there's a lot of leeway in the articles! The thing is, the majority of that leeway is in the hands of the Emperor. Notice how many of these articles put the Emperor's rule above the Electors in an undeniable way. Even Article 9 says that you may not render aid if it assists in "overt harm to the electoral system". Overt is the operative word here, so if the Emperor decided he wanted a magister to do something questionable, Article 1 says their loyalty is first to the law and articles, then to the Emperor, and there's nothing in the Articles that says they can't mess with an Elector. No wonder the Electors would be angry at the power the Emperor holds with the Colleges. On the other hand, it also means the Colleges have to make peace with the Emperor unles they are such a menace to the unity of the Empire that they would tear it apart, anything short of that they can make do with.
I really like the Articles as a piece of worldbuilding. Consider how Article 2 isn't:
2. No Magister may obstruct the rulings of the Emperor, nor may they seek to overthrow him.
That would be a very understandable rule for an Emperor to write, but it's not the one Magnus wrote. Instead, he implicitly enshrined the right for Magisters to seek to overthrow the Emperor as long as their motives are pure.
2. No Magister may obstruct the rulings of the Emperor, nor may they seek to overthrow him.
That would be a very understandable rule for an Emperor to write, but it's not the one Magnus wrote. Instead, he implicitly enshrined the right for Magisters to seek to overthrow the Emperor as long as their motives are pure.
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Since I've already done a post on the Articles detailing the limitations placed upon Magisters, what are Magisters actually allowed to DO of their own volition? Well:
TL;DR There's a reason that Elector Counts should be wary of the Colleges, and the power of the Colleges is limited by employment and orders from the Emperor. Their mandate is not actually that huge, which is why they so often seek employment. So they can actually do stuff.
The Colleges have free reign to study, document, experiment and practice with magic and grant the rights to such things by taking on apprentices, and are not allowed to study the "Forbidden Lores". The wording makes it so that you can study Dhar, but not the actual Lores of casting involved, and even Dhar study requires special dispensation from the colleges. This is what the Colleges do most of the time. Here is what the Colleges are "required" to do:
13 says that if a magic user is within the bounds of the Empire, they are required to seek them out to "ascertain their suitability", then either send them to the orders, report them or destroy them. 14 states that if sufficient evidence is provided, they are required to assist the witch hunters in their duties.
And 15 here says that they must seek out and counter destructive and anti imperial machinations etc. that are beyond the means of etc. but still serve Chaos or sorcerous/infernal corruption of imperial citizens. These three articles are the "required" ones. Here is the "must" ones:
They must respond favorably to reasonable requests from Electors, but they don't need to accede to their requests in any way, especially if it is deemed to not be reasonable. They must be ready to render services to the Emperor and Electors upon request, but terms and conditions may apply. And article 10 says they must grant protection for diplomatic missions and tasks of defence and war required by the "duly elected Emperor", not a self proclaimed Emperor or an Elector.
Notice that this article uses "permitted" instead of "must" or "required". There is no particular obligation to seek out employment by any particular authority if you don't want to unless a superior of yours orders you to do so (will talk about this later). This wording means that the only time that a Magister can "do something" that isn't included in the "required" and "must" that doesn't involve "magical research" has to fall under this article. If you're not employed by a legal authority deemed permissable by this article, and what you want to do doesn't fall under other articles, you can't do much (unless you're operating not as a Magister I suppose).
Finally, we go back full circle to the beginning. The point of this whole analysis I'm making is to point out that magisters are not permitted to exert power unless they are "employed by a legitimate authority", or following one of the articles that indicate that they "must" or are "required" to do something. However, it should also be reminded that while ultimate authority rests with the articles, as long as they aren't breached, the Emperor has the utmost power after them, then the Supreme Patriarch, indicating that he is indeed subordinate to the Emperor's will. Notice that the chain of command never mentions Elector Counts once, because they are not a part of it (EDIT: They can actually be part of the chain of command as "Authorities that a magister may be required to serve in the course of his duties", which is quite vague and below Patriarch of the order and the laws and ideals of the Order, so kinda low on there). Even the articles that include "must" have qualifying words that can allow a Magister to deny serving an Elector Count under specific conditions.
TL;DR There's a reason that Elector Counts should be wary of the Colleges, and the power of the Colleges is limited by employment and orders from the Emperor. Their mandate is not actually that huge, which is why they so often seek employment. So they can actually do stuff.
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I mean, yes, but unlike the oaths, the ideals of the empire are nebulously defined (apart from "opposse chaos, ally with Dawi, be united", none of which is a problem) and pretty much depend on what the Emperor wants/how they interpret them.
Got some bad news for you about that last one and 11 of the past 13 centuries...
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I mean, yes, true and fair, but I would think it would be a central ideal after Magnus did his reforms, even though it wasn't (at least in practice) during the time (millennium?) Of the three (four?) Emperors. It is relatively new, though, younger than many Dawi and Elgi we have met, yes.
Besides, even if an Emperor (or twenty) does not follow an ideal that does not stop it from being one.
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Looking at the articles Magnus' priorities are most clearly illustrated in articles 1 and 15 - art 1 places the somewhat vaguely laws and ideals (including the Articles as the one piece of law that is specifically defined) as the most important thing and article 15 places countering "destructive and anti-Imperial machinations, practices, peoples, and creatures that are beyond the means of civil authorities and Sigmar's Templars to counter, but yet still serve the Daemon Gods or advance the corruption of Imperial citizens through any sorcerous or infernal means" as the prime purpose of the Colleges beyond even the other articles.
Basically everything in the other articles has some level of flexibility and potential for politics - the combo between the 1st and 15th article doesn't.
This is some great worldbuilding as it indicates just how laser focused Magnus was in screwing Chaos: there's no single individual, institution or law that sits above screw Chaos/destructive powers in general. Indeed a lot of the leeway the other articles grant seem to be pointed largely towards the possibility of Chaos or other malign corruption (or someone like Dieter who wasn't Corrupt but was just mundanely corrupt and incompetent enough that he could inadvertently facilitate such corruption).
The articles make it clear that you hit the exotic destro stuff first and then worry about everything else later.
Basically everything in the other articles has some level of flexibility and potential for politics - the combo between the 1st and 15th article doesn't.
This is some great worldbuilding as it indicates just how laser focused Magnus was in screwing Chaos: there's no single individual, institution or law that sits above screw Chaos/destructive powers in general. Indeed a lot of the leeway the other articles grant seem to be pointed largely towards the possibility of Chaos or other malign corruption (or someone like Dieter who wasn't Corrupt but was just mundanely corrupt and incompetent enough that he could inadvertently facilitate such corruption).
The articles make it clear that you hit the exotic destro stuff first and then worry about everything else later.
Every Emperor of the Time of Three Emperors would argue and most would genuinely believe they were living up to the ideal of unity. They were the rightful Emperor, so everyone should be united in obedience to them. It was the other pretenders that were eroding the unity of the Empire by pursuing their wrongful power grab. That's kind of the problem with 'unity' as an ideal, it can so easily be used as a bludgeon against justified dissent.
Terminology-wise, 'three emperors' is more of a running average instead of three distinct lines of descent. The only constant were the Ottilian Emperors, the rest of it was rounded out by the Wolf, Elected, Marienburger, and Reiklander Emperors at various periods.
deathofrats0808
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All of them. The Sigmarites are not bound to obey the Dawi, and their other beliefs are just as important to them as the one to help Dwarfs (or more so; given a choice between protecting the Empire by killing a few hundred Dwarfs and not doing that, most Sigmarites will kill the Dwarfs). Not to mention, the Sigmarites are in fact capable of understanding that Mathilde wouldn't be SM for ever, and voting against her on that principle alone.
Sigmarites are not going to do what random Dawi in a tavern wants them to but the High King's personal seal of approval ought to at least counter the automatic rejection of all things magic that Sigmarites have. That still means an uphill battle to win their votes - but at least their votes would be winnable rather than the outright refusal every other Supreme Matriarch or Patriarch that doesn't have the High King's stamp of approval (or hasn't done something ridiculous like killing an Everchosen) would expect.
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Honestly, I kind of disagree with both the assertions about Sigmarites being an auto success and an auto fail.
I think being a Dwarven hero gets us a foot in the door when other Magister's would never get that. But we still need both luck and effort to actually secure the votes.
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Okay I haven't been paying much attention since page 10217, why are people trying to make Mathilde the supreme matriarch?
Thread madness, pretty much. Something to fill the time between updates since the relevant stuff has been discussed.
And well, there was also the whole stint for about half a century where the Elector Count of Sylvania also claimed the Throne. Came close to succeeding as well. Would take a few more centuries for someone else to do better.
Unfortunately, still cleaning up the mess of that Claimant even now.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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I disagree. The Sigmarites have every reason to not want the Colleges to get a vote. It goes against their beliefs, it weakens their political power, both generally, and especially over the Reikland ECs, they will know damn well that once the SP/M has a vote they can't take it away so even if the current EC is endorsed by the Dwarfs the next one is supremely unlikely to be. Like, the Sigmarites only accepted magic because Magnus made them do it, and they still don't like it. And Magnus had a ridiculous amount of pull with the Cult.
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NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
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There's no trying yet, it's all hypotheticals at the moment.
Thorgrim Grudgebearer is not the boss of them and they have no obligation to listen to a single word he says unless that word is 'help me kill this common enemy of ours'. That is it, they do not have to acknowledge that dwarfs are smart, they do not even have a religious obligation to like dwarfs, just render aid in times of need.
Also as has been pointed out before they just like every other elector have the best of all reason not to want more electors. Every single extra vote diminishes their power.
Titles for the Title God!
Hats for the Hat throne!
But the serious answer is that this is a quest about engaging with political systems, and Mathilde's kinda hit a glass ceiling for how much higher she can climb. There are not many options for those that aspire to climb even higher, and SM is the obvious candidate. The other options are become an EC, become upper nobility, or carve out our own kingdom somewhere. (Funnily enough, some variant of those all appeared as options in the expedition epilogue, and the thread voted for Waystones instead).
Not saying we're going to actually make the attempt—there's a lot of soft power and influence we can throw already around as a Lady Magister, and we have some very good connections to higher political institutions. Some may argue that we don't have to aspire to greater heights, that being a LM is more than sufficient to be one of the movers and shakers of the world.
But as long as the car exists, the dog is going to chase it, even if it's only in dreams.
I would actually like to point out that being LM mathy does have limits at SM/EC/BP mathy doesn't.
now, SM/EC/BP mathy has responsibilities LM doesn't, just like LM mathy has responsibilities Journeyman didn't (well, shouldn't have had.)
But you really can't honestly say LM would have more soft power or hard power or ability to get stuff done then a higher rank.
now, SM/EC/BP mathy has responsibilities LM doesn't, just like LM mathy has responsibilities Journeyman didn't (well, shouldn't have had.)
But you really can't honestly say LM would have more soft power or hard power or ability to get stuff done then a higher rank.
They're under no obligation to like dwarfs but you don't spend 2000 years worshiping someone whose primary claim to fame was making nice with dwarfs and getting them to teach otherwise primitive humans craftsmanship and also give the most important regalia not only for the Empire as a whole but also for individual provinces without developing a rather high level of respect. Sigmarites are bound to have 'Dawi are worthy allies' very deeply ingrained in cult culture because at least half of what Sigmar did was off the back of 'Dawi are worthy allies'.
Becoming an EC outside pushing the Colleges over the top would be... tricky.
And by tricky I mean nigh impossible. Mathilde isn't related to any nobility and she'd have no big organisation backing her up.
Ironically her best shot would be to carve a kingdom somewhere and then have the Empire annex that kingdom in exchange for an EC vote; however the number of places where a sufficiently prosperous kingdom can be carved is very small if not non-existent.
Sure, they are worthy allies, which means you like their craft and you want them on your side on a battlefield, it does not mean you take their word about wizards, a thing they do not even have in their society and which they could claim no great experience with, it also does not mean diminishing your own political power because the current dwarf king thinks wizards are alright, especially since there is a history of dwarfs being deeply suspicious of wizards going back millennia. A skeptical (or self interested) Grand Theogonist could justify any recommendation from Thorgrim as a fluke when set against that history.
The Cult has no interest to hand anyone another vote, they just like every other elector will be looking for excuses to deny it. There are plenty to be found in the case of the Colleges of Magic.
SuperSonicSound
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That's great and all but it literally didn't stop there being pogroms against imperial dwarves in the past. The individual sects of the cult of Sigmar don't have to put the same prominence to every tenant of their beliefs and strangely enough wouldn't you know it 'Aid the dwarves' traditionally has been one they don't particularly cleave to.
Then throw in all the other selfish reasons they'd have to basically go "Lol no" and the idea doesn't seem likely.
Example from the quest: The church of Sigmar was too busy with their slap fight with the Ulricans to actually help. Now, "wiped out villages" is a pretty good reason to be busy, but it's still pathetic that they didn't even manage a few priests or something.