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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Jreengus said:
Technically there's nothing preventing Mathilde from becoming Empress, she just needs to somehow secure enough votes right? I think we're getting there with Roswita though it will still need a lot more work. We can probably write of the Sigmarite votes entirely. The moot should like us, it's a start there at least...
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If Abelhelm didn't have an heir, we would've gotten the chance to install Anton as EC of Stirland and then marry him shortly after he would've elected by the other ECs.

Probably would've been followed by the Grey College asking Regimand wtf his apprentice is doing :p
 
LightLan said:
If Abelhelm didn't have an heir, we would've gotten the chance to install Anton as EC of Stirland and then marry him shortly after he would've elected by the other ECs.

Probably would've been followed by the Grey College asking Regimand wtf his apprentice is doing :p
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I'll take the magister exam once I'm done running the Empire, got to much on my plate right now.
 
K von Carstein said:
That would destroy any hope of neutrality for the Colleges. They're supposed to serve the Empire, not rule it.
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Was neutrality ever a goal for the Colleges? They (and Grey one specifically) are not supposed to use their magic against other institutions, but it's the same way ECs are not supposed to use their armies against other institutions. I am unaware of anything prohibiting them from usual politicking and pursuit of power - indeed, canonically, the Colleges did attempt to get a vote.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
The problem with the Age wasn't the number of votes required, they elected an Emperor. The problem was the perception that the vote was rigged and the (then more powerful) split between the Cults of Ulric and Sigmar.
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Though, I think there was an interregnum after Mandred's assassination? Might depend on the source (as ever) but I swear I read somewhere that the election that Otillia disputed was the first election since Mandred's death to actually result in an Emperor?
 
Mopman43 said:
Though, I think there was an interregnum after Mandred's assassination? Might depend on the source (as ever) but I swear I read somewhere that the election that Otillia disputed was the first election since Mandred's death to actually result in an Emperor?
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I don't know if the one that Ottilia disputed was the first to successfully elect someone since Mandred, but I think I've seen some sources say that what Emperors were elected weren't very powerful anyway. I suspect both have been written.
 
Oh, thought I'd mention, Shades of Empire also says Hisme is female (there's particular mention of a statue the Lodge has commissioned of her)
 
They did manage to banish a potential rival in the formidable Hluodwica off to lead the possibly-doomed K8P colonisation gamble. :)
 
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agumentic said:
Was neutrality ever a goal for the Colleges? They (and Grey one specifically) are not supposed to use their magic against other institutions, but it's the same way ECs are not supposed to use their armies against other institutions. I am unaware of anything prohibiting them from usual politicking and pursuit of power - indeed, canonically, the Colleges did attempt to get a vote.
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Well it might not be what the Colleges want right no, but neutrality is certainly the image they have to project lest they make enemies of the whole Empire, high and low. Arcane magic is still very new and for the most part very scary.
 
Technically, if we make Empress (governing Empress, not married to the Emperor empress) or Supreme Matriarch, we'd be above the oaths of the college according to the laws of magic.

Not certain it'll matter in practice... But technically, there is that
 
ShyPerson said:
I have seen Swiss cheese with less holes that the Warhammer canon. My solution is to point at setting details and say "I like this, therefore it's canon" or "I don't like this, therefore it's not canon". Better to keep stuff from official sources in a quantum state and pull what you need or like than trying to rationalize decades of contradictory factioids into a coherent timeline.
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Yeah I was just pointing out that in fact that is also GW's own policy.
 
On the topic of College neutrality, remember that they were founded by the man who ended a 1500 year long civil war. I think they are wary of becoming tools—or worse, instigators—of another civil war, if only to avoid bringing dishonour to Magnus and his ideals.

Not saying they are perfect at this—if there hadn't been infighting between the eight orders at the time, the Storm of Magic may never have happened—but I suspect it's an ideal that most would support, and as such wizards are encouraged to be detached from internal politics and instead focus on threats to the unity of the Empire.
 
storryeater said:
Technically, if we make Empress (governing Empress, not married to the Emperor empress) or Supreme Matriarch, we'd be above the oaths of the college according to the laws of magic.

Not certain it'll matter in practice... But technically, there is that
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I don't think so. First loyalty is to the ideals of the empire, then the emperor, supreme matriarch, laws of the college, etc etc. We would still be bound to the ideals.
 
The Colleges are political and politically involved by virtue of existing. The SP sits on the Council of State, and the Colleges are tasked to fulfill military, economic, and espionage goals. Even setting aside the ever-present need for influence and resources, you don't need to be Plato to know that staying out of politics is bad for your slice of the pie.
 
I would like to note in canon that Karl Franz did try to make the Supreme Patriarch an Elector during the reign of Karl Franz. It's mentioned in Realms of Sorcery as having happened when Thyruss Gormann was SP. Karl Franz is an extremely good statesman, and the results turned out overwhelmingly against in the votes. Only Karl Franz and Hisme Stoutheart gave their votes, Hisme because they saw no difference between the Theogonist getting a vote and the Patriarch getting one.

The remaining Electors voted against for the following reasons: The Sigmarites for the obvious reason that they don't want a filthy magic user in the council to oppose their agendas, and the remaining Electors because they don't want the Reikland vote to gain more power because they know the Supreme Patriarch would be in his pocket, since the Reikland Emperors are also the Princes of Altdorf and the SP operates in Altdorf.

Obviously DL isn't canon, but it would still be an absurdly uphill climb to get the College an Elector vote. Hell, the SP being in the Council of State isn't as big of a deal as you'd think. The Council of State are advisors, but their individual power is highly reliant on the Emperor actually following through and providing them with the resources to do it. The Grand Theogonist is blessed with a powerful organisation with its power structure being separate from the Emperor, but the SP is largely beholden to the Emperor at large and the amount of authority he holds without the Emperor's authorisation is limited.

The Colleges may seem neutral at first glance, but they are heavily influenced by the position of Emperor, Elector Count of Reikland and Prince of Altdorf, all of which hold the same seat at the moment. They have certain powers that aren't restricted by this, such as Regimand's assassination spree bypassing Imperial oversight and killing the Empress, but that power is not to be abused at all. If Regimand had attempted it without sufficient proof that the Empress was consorting with Dark Powers, it would have caused utter disaster.
 
Codex said:
I would like to note in canon that Karl Franz did try to make the Supreme Patriarch an Elector during the reign of Karl Franz. It's mentioned in Realms of Sorcery as having happened when Thyruss Gormann was SP. Karl Franz is an extremely good statesman, and the results turned out overwhelmingly against in the votes. Only Karl Franz and Hisme Stoutheart gave their votes, Hisme because they saw no difference between the Theogonist getting a vote and the Patriarch getting one.

The remaining Electors voted against for the following reasons: The Sigmarites for the obvious reason that they don't want a filthy magic user in the council to oppose their agendas, and the remaining Electors because they don't want the Reikland vote to gain more power because they know the Supreme Patriarch would be in his pocket, since the Reikland Emperors are also the Princes of Altdorf and the SP operates in Altdorf.

Obviously DL isn't canon, but it would still be an absurdly uphill climb to get the College an Elector vote. Hell, the SP being in the Council of State isn't as big of a deal as you'd think. The Council of State are advisors, but their individual power is highly reliant on the Emperor actually following through and providing them with the resources to do it. The Grand Theogonist is blessed with a powerful organisation with its power structure being separate from the Emperor, but the SP is largely beholden to the Emperor at large and the amount of authority he holds without the Emperor's authorisation is limited.

The Colleges may seem neutral at first glance, but they are heavily influenced by the position of Emperor, Elector Count of Reikland and Prince of Altdorf, all of which hold the same seat at the moment. They have certain powers that aren't restricted by this, such as Regimand's assassination spree bypassing Imperial oversight and killing the Empress, but that power is not to be abused at all. If Regimand had attempted it without sufficient proof that the Empress was consorting with Dark Powers, it would have caused utter disaster.
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Your continued insightful posts into Divided Loyalties and Warhammer are entertaining, informative, and appreciated. Your presence, actions, and manner make this thread better.
 
To be fully accurate, I will quote the direct relevant passage from Realms of Sorcery Pg 64 instead of relying on my faulty memory, which I realised twisted some details as there was no actual vote, just subtle pressure, and Hisme was neutral rather than supportive. The passage is under the spoiler:

"Under the last Supreme Patriarch of the Orders of Magic, Thyrus Gormann, subtle pressure was applied to the Empire's College of Electors to allow him to join their number and be allowed to cast a vote in the election of all future Emperors. This was vehemently opposed by all the Electors other than Karl Franz and the Elder of the Moot who stayed reasonably neutral in the matter. It is a given that the Supreme Patriarch would almost always choose to back the Princes of Altdorf with any vote he is granted, which would give the Prince (who is also the Elector Count of the Reikland), five secured votes, along with his own and the Sigmarite votes.

The Sigmarites opposed this on a matter of principle, and the other Electors condemned it because of the staggering advantage it would give the Reikland Count in all elections. While the Elder of the Moot admitted that such a thing would indeed unbalance the electoral system further in favour of the Reikland, he also saw no real difference between the Patriarch having the vote and the Sigmarite Theogonist and his two most senior Arch-Lectors having them, or indeed Ar-Ulric having a vote. Although the idea was never pursued actively, gossip and whispers continue about the issue within provincial courts across the Empire."
 
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Codex said:
The remaining Electors voted against for the following reasons: The Sigmarites for the obvious reason that they don't want a filthy magic user in the council to oppose their agendas, and the remaining Electors because they don't want the Reikland vote to gain more power because they know the Supreme Patriarch would be in his pocket, since the Reikland Emperors are also the Princes of Altdorf and the SP operates in Altdorf.
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If Mathilde gets in the Supreme Matriarch seat we might be able to use her dwarfyness to get the Sigmarites to vote yes - after all what proper Sigmarite would vote against a Dawi hero?

Securing the rest of the votes would be trickier but still there's a real chance if the whole Middenland/Nordland thing goes well.
 
The real issue with adding another vote is it is very hard to get people to vote to dilute their own power. So they'll only agree if they are getting something out of it or feel they have no other choice.
 
I mentioned this in my giant info post, but in Sigmar's profile where I was listing his deeds, I put in that he defeated a dragon that was probably Abraxas. I would like to make a further clarfication on that, because there's a lot of asteriks attached to that deed:

1. The dragon is described as a Great Wyrm and named Abraxas, but he did not kill said dragon. He merely wounded it. Circumstances surrounding the battle are unknown to me at the moment.

2. The information is from WHFRP 2E Old World Bestiary in the Common View section of Dragons, mentioned offhandedly by a quote from a Wandering Minstrel when he talks about dragonslayers being very rare and that even Sigmar didn't kill the dragon he defeated. The way the book is layed out, the quotes are merely the point of view of the person being quoted, and Common View section is mentioned in the intro of the book as a flawed perspective that may be inaccurate, just there to give you a feel for how the common people see it.

With these two points in mind, I can not say with any degree of certainty what the exact details were of Sigmar and Abraxas' battle, if it even happened. However, I do think that many myths hold some truth to it, and why would a wandering Minstrel know that exact name if it wasn't mentioned somewhere at some point? Abraxas was mentioned by Deathfang as having gone into exile, but he must have been in the Old World at some point for his name to be known.
 
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