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Wonder what the Eonir Offer to sell?
Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism
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Wonder what the Eonir Offer to sell?
We did clarify awhile back, actually. Massgamer even did a little map edit. Informational tab, clarified Nordland borders map. Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism
iggyfan
Verified Man-Thing
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I've already begun working on that omake.
Fully Clarified Borders Between Laurelorn/Nordland
Here is a redone map which is hopefully fully informative as to the current borders between the Province of Nordland and the High Realm of Laurelorn. Massgamer's original map was fine, but I wanted to get a little more in-depth/detailed.
- The two blue X's are areas of particular note due to being often problematic areas full of either actual Wreckers - essentially land-based pirates who work to ruin ships/drive them to wreck upon the shore so that they can be looted, often worshippers of Stromfels - and greenskin pirate settlements, as well as generally used for clandestine/smuggling purposes from the seas. After being given over to the Eonir, however, such things have been painfully curtailed. There are no safe havens for Wrecker Crews within Eonir borders, nor for greenskins. They take such things seriously. Smugglers are not welcome either, and often claims that they are just temporarily ashore to recuperate and that they'll just wait for rescue or are soon to leave are countered with the Eonir stating that they'll speed them along right into the hands of the Nordland authorities.
- The red X's are former Imperial settlements, initially lost due to Gruber and the whole Nurgle overtaking the province thing, including him inviting a great many of the province's nobles to the big party in Salzenmund that ended with them all as sacrifices. Never repopulated or reclaimed before the new border treaty was signed anyway. Stephan evacuated as many as he could back in the day, but his grand accomplishment was managing to pull out 1/3 of Nordland's populace, not 1/2 or higher. After which they mainly were concentrated in east of the river anyway.
- The small green X's are denoting the somewhat contested border of the Schadensumpf, as Middenland claims all of it and more - as Middenland has made efforts to try and push into/claim Laurelorn 'as humanity's right' and so on and so forth before in the past.
- As mentioned before, part of the border agreement is flat out legal acceptance that anyone crossing into Laurelorn's borders without Eonir permission ceases to have any right to protest/complain/etc. about whatever treatment the Eonir or the Forest Spirits elect to give them. If you go across to try and do anything, if you die, you die, and you don't get to protest to the local lord about trying to 'punish those despicable knife-ears for takin' mah boy what just wanted some firewood' or anything like that. Or rather, you can, but the lord gets to stick his hand into the thornpatch and then can't really complain to Stephan if his household troops get massacred.
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Given his recent loss of 40,000 men, I doubt that Gunther is going to send any doomed expeditions into Laurelorn for the foreseeable future, but it's honestly not our problem if Middenland voluntarily throws their troops away. Their loss.
The east of Nordland seems to be the most densely populated and cultivated part anyway and the Empire is certainly not lacking for wood, but having to officially line yourself up as one of the smaller provinces, along with Hochland and the Moot, obviously smarts the national pride. No matter how sensible and beneficial the decision was.
Prestige politics.
It's not like they ever truly controlled it fully, but the claim to said territory is what's important. Same with the Middle Mountains where Gunther had to give up claims to us.
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sort of wandering but about the Nordland nobles ? , its been a topic that they are actively challenging and making trouble for their elector count but at the same time its being mentioned over and over that Gruber killed the vast majority of them so hard even the settlements they ruled were wiped out never mind what he did to their heirs and families , which is the contradiction that pops to mind , if Steffen had replaced the nobles then those newly appointed noble houses would be utterly loyal to him till the end of his life at least since they would owe him big time for all their new power ,land and status , while the surviving old nobles might be annoyed at these upstarts they shouldn't be able to act on that since a great many of their fellow old nobles houses that they could ally with were wiped out .
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Nordland gets less coastland to patrol and less internal land territory to patrol. Hopefully, Nordland becomes best buds with the Eonir. Make it like Sigmar and the Dawi.
Concerned with Middenland though. Sure they may have lost troops now in this generation but what about in the next lets say 3 or 4. I can trust Nordland to not go and try to tangle with the Eonir. The treaty works but the one that probably will get people to stick with it long term is the trade. Merchants and nobles dont want war with a profitable trade partner after all.
Middenland on the other hand with its current family is most likely to gain some revanchist ideals down the dynastic line to get the area as since its not "technically" Nordland clay. They may feel it politically safe to attack that contested swamp/plain thing (?) to get to the misty hills.
Concerned with Middenland though. Sure they may have lost troops now in this generation but what about in the next lets say 3 or 4. I can trust Nordland to not go and try to tangle with the Eonir. The treaty works but the one that probably will get people to stick with it long term is the trade. Merchants and nobles dont want war with a profitable trade partner after all.
Middenland on the other hand with its current family is most likely to gain some revanchist ideals down the dynastic line to get the area as since its not "technically" Nordland clay. They may feel it politically safe to attack that contested swamp/plain thing (?) to get to the misty hills.
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pucflek
Verified simpleton
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It is if they do it now. Gunthar will be instrumental in fighting the beast tide.
I sadly can't really see the peace lasting that long because the lack of accountability is just foolish. What happens if people or children get lost on the other side of the border and get eaten by trees. Just accept that? I think it's not going to last long. Accidents, resentment, entitlement all of it's going to just explode one day.
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In a world where beastmen and greenskins roam the forests of the Empire. Laurelorean which is constantly patrolled by the Eonir. I reckon even the peasants and people will get knowledgeable enough to realize to not go into a forest where you LEGALLY will not be rescued from. Plus its not that hard to not go to the forest as the majority of Nordland is east of the River Sals and the Erengrad road. The only area I can see where you accidentally go in is the Silver Hills, and the road isnt close to any villages that anyone who goes in there is most likely doing it for malicious purposes.
I reckon even at the Erengrad road by the forest there are wardens and signs that state "Do not enter the forest." At some point, its kinda not explainable on how you "accidentally" get in.
From Nordlands side the border is clearly marked by the River Saltz, Silver Hills and the main road from north to south. Accidently crossing the border is not going to be easy unless you are willfully ignorant. As fie children, this is Mallus children walking alone in a forest is just asking for them to get killed by the horrors that reside in them. The parents would be lucky to find the bodies if they ended up dead. Never mind recognizing them and the cause of death. If anything they would get accused for neglect for allowing their children going into the forest.
Edit: got ninja-Ed.
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I hear what your saying @Lonosic. Yes that northern part has a river to cleanly divide the border but that southern part of the border specifically the silver hills to Frote is not an insignificant part of land and it is really easy to get lost in forests and hills especially with all the magic and monsters that are probably changing geographic features. The fact that it is entirely on men to just deal with that with no recourse to elves who can just kill them for mistakes will to my reckoning create a lot of hostile experiences which will boil over eventually.
The treaty in my mind puts too much on men and not enough accountability on elves. If elves go onto human lands can they be killed with no recourse or is it only men who suffer that clause.
The treaty in my mind puts too much on men and not enough accountability on elves. If elves go onto human lands can they be killed with no recourse or is it only men who suffer that clause.
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That's the thing. It's have been Humans going into Eonir Lands. IIRC, it has been noted that there have been multiple attempts to try to get this treaty working but it has been Human Incursions that have ruined it. The Eonir have been noted to just stay within the forest. The reason why it puts too much on men because it is said men who actually cannot be held accountable historically.
To my mind, its a perfectly reasonable treaty because it in the end just formalizes an informal status quo that has been on-going in Nordland since the start of said province. Do not go into the forest, or else the things in there will kill you.
Correct me if Im wrong with the Eonir going into Nordland but from my knowledge it has just been the humies that keep into the forest despite it already being lived in by the Eonir.
IIRC, in the Nordland campaign it was even noted by Stephan that Gruber ruined the treaty that his father made with the Eonir which understandably made them pissed.
Its been through the MONUMENTOUS effort by Frederick that Stephan and Narial are even having diplomatic talks and have fixed the treaty. It has also been said that Narial is giving us, the Empire, a final chance with this treaty because she has lived through a large amount of imperials making the treaty then just breaking it a couple of generations later. That's why the treaty itself noted it will be continuing three generations and not just Stephan's.
The Empire is at fault here, not the Eonir.
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From what I recall the main problem isn't those nobles but their children who were born after the whole mess and his main worry is Mera and how the nobles don't really like her at all. Also Mera isn't making things better for her future reign by activity ignoring or just not bothering to make friends or ally's among the nobles to in their eyes hang out with a bunch of lowborn in the woods for months at a time until they all died
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Eonir are not the ones who have repeatedly invaded territory. Eonir are not the ones illegally poaching and hunting, crimes that can carry quite severe punishments in Imperial lands. Eonir are not the ones illegally setting up settlements and clear cutting lands that don't belong to them for lumber. Eonir are not the ones regularly attempting to march troops in, trumpet noisome irritations about Imperial rights to the land. Eonir are not the ones illegally trying to harvest plants and general belongings in lands that do not belong to them. Eonir are not bringing fire and death and destruction to lands that don't belong to them, only to them scream and shout and swear vengeance upon being repulsed. Eonir don't send treasure hunters into Nordland trying to acquire human artifacts and items that can be sold on the black market.
If a human of the Empire travels to Araby, only to kill some Arabyans, steal gems out of their mines, and then builds a house in sight of their palaces with their trees and reeds, he does not magically become somehow 'right' to do so, nor do the Arabyans suddenly become 'wrong' to want that person dead.
It is sovereign territory. With legal permission, some humans are allowed in, and allowed to do certain things. The river is the clearest possible border, even in the Empire, and going from province to province does not magically grant protection from laws laid down.
The Silver Hills are specifically delineated, with Laurelorn's borders also defined by menhirs and the like. Those who go inside without permission forfeit any protections of Nordland, just as any Imperial entering Kislev. A place where, quite frankly, different laws apply. And frankly, it's as much for the human's protection like as not sometimes by virtue of the fact that an Eonir patrol might bleed you or simply escort you out depending on what you've done, especially for children as per treaty agreements between Stephan and Naraiel, but because sometimes you get found by Forest Spirits instead.
If a man goes across the river from Hochland to Talabecland, and gets killed by a bear, that's just what happens sometimes. If someone travels into Norsca, or the Chaos Wastes, what happens, happens.
There are degrees, obviously, with punishments and treatments. Children have priority in terms of return/kinder treatment, but that's thanks to Stephan and Naraiel. And yet they can't control every Forest Spirit, just like the Elector Counts can't wave a hand and remove all wild animals, beastmen, goblins, etc
If Eonir travel Nordland, they generally are not overmuch bothered because they don't do much bothering. Or are accompanied by Nordland troops that they are aiding as a scout or the like. Or just leave if the people are getting particularly xenophobic. And if they should cause actual major issues, there are now proper legal channels.
If a human of the Empire travels to Araby, only to kill some Arabyans, steal gems out of their mines, and then builds a house in sight of their palaces with their trees and reeds, he does not magically become somehow 'right' to do so, nor do the Arabyans suddenly become 'wrong' to want that person dead.
It is sovereign territory. With legal permission, some humans are allowed in, and allowed to do certain things. The river is the clearest possible border, even in the Empire, and going from province to province does not magically grant protection from laws laid down.
The Silver Hills are specifically delineated, with Laurelorn's borders also defined by menhirs and the like. Those who go inside without permission forfeit any protections of Nordland, just as any Imperial entering Kislev. A place where, quite frankly, different laws apply. And frankly, it's as much for the human's protection like as not sometimes by virtue of the fact that an Eonir patrol might bleed you or simply escort you out depending on what you've done, especially for children as per treaty agreements between Stephan and Naraiel, but because sometimes you get found by Forest Spirits instead.
If a man goes across the river from Hochland to Talabecland, and gets killed by a bear, that's just what happens sometimes. If someone travels into Norsca, or the Chaos Wastes, what happens, happens.
There are degrees, obviously, with punishments and treatments. Children have priority in terms of return/kinder treatment, but that's thanks to Stephan and Naraiel. And yet they can't control every Forest Spirit, just like the Elector Counts can't wave a hand and remove all wild animals, beastmen, goblins, etc
If Eonir travel Nordland, they generally are not overmuch bothered because they don't do much bothering. Or are accompanied by Nordland troops that they are aiding as a scout or the like. Or just leave if the people are getting particularly xenophobic. And if they should cause actual major issues, there are now proper legal channels.
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This topic has come up before. Torroar mentioned that children wandering in would be scooped up by the Eonir and politely returned with a firm warning. Probably to them and their parents.
The borders are pretty well established at this point, at least as far as the Eonir and Nordlanders are concerned. I doubt a lot of adults are innocently getting lost.
Also, keep in mind trespassing isn't an automatic death sentence. It's just that if you trespass, your fate is up to the Eonir or forest spirits. So be careful to start with. But the Eonir can tell the difference between someone deliberately intruding and someone who might actually be lost. If there's doubt they probably capture/detain them if possible to learn more.
If it was an accidental trespass, then payment/restitution might be demanded or something.
Edit: Grey 🧙♂️
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And to be further clear, the Eonir have NEVER perpetrated something like the Wild Hunt onto Nordland. That's strictly an Asrai thing. They've never ranged out at full strength and destroyed cities like the Asrai have to Bretonnia and others. They have joined it before, by way of traveling all the way to Athel Loren and joining it, but never to Nordland or the Empire proper. They have only ever obliterated people entering their borders aggressively, excepting those settlements allowed with careful negotiation I.e. the red x settlements on the map, and have even allowed special carefully observed logging operation for the super magic great Laurelorn lumber, but only those special permission areas. Hence illegal logging being mega punished.
At MOST in terms of actual aggression and not defense, they have sent elite bands to alpha strike very specific nobles and merchants behind major invasion/incursion attempts who then promptly return with very low to zero collateral. Because, you know, elves.
EDIT: Have they been absolutely brutal, devastating, ruinous, etc. To their enemies? Yes. Plenty of mostly innocent loggers or hunters have gotten strung up by their own entrails outside their houses before because they crossed the border illegally and illegally harvested or hunted. Some children have *not* been helped back across. Etc. But again, after 2300+ years of telling people where NOT TO GO and repeated attacks/invasions, for a lot of the Eonir, it's difficult to have patience/allowance for certain things.
EDIT EDIT: As an additional reminder, the Eonir were written before I got access/read general 'canon' Eonir material with the stuff about the Wards and a city of glass and what not. I've incorporated bits and pieces here and there, but in general, I wouldn't try overmuch to rely on too much of the source materials now out there.
At MOST in terms of actual aggression and not defense, they have sent elite bands to alpha strike very specific nobles and merchants behind major invasion/incursion attempts who then promptly return with very low to zero collateral. Because, you know, elves.
EDIT: Have they been absolutely brutal, devastating, ruinous, etc. To their enemies? Yes. Plenty of mostly innocent loggers or hunters have gotten strung up by their own entrails outside their houses before because they crossed the border illegally and illegally harvested or hunted. Some children have *not* been helped back across. Etc. But again, after 2300+ years of telling people where NOT TO GO and repeated attacks/invasions, for a lot of the Eonir, it's difficult to have patience/allowance for certain things.
EDIT EDIT: As an additional reminder, the Eonir were written before I got access/read general 'canon' Eonir material with the stuff about the Wards and a city of glass and what not. I've incorporated bits and pieces here and there, but in general, I wouldn't try overmuch to rely on too much of the source materials now out there.
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At first impression, this looks like a huge and devastating loss of territory.
Then you realize that aside form the colored lines, this whole map is from a an original canon source. An Original Canon source where Grubber's whole story arc took place in Ostmark, and Nordland hadn't had their population devastated by Nurgle cultists.
This isn't Stephen giving up two thirds of his territory, this is Stephen admitting that Nordland doesn't control this territory, and never did control that vast majority of it in any meaningful way.
Honestly, what it reminds me of, was when the old Ostland counts finally admitted they weren't going to be ruling Kislev, and left.
Looking at the scale of this map, Nordland's reformed borders still conservatively contain 20000 square miles. That's 125% the land area of the Netherlands.
After everything I've seen in thread, that the vast majority of the Empire is unpopulated or severely underpopulated wilderness, crawling with mortal dangers, deciding to build moderately tall sounds like a wise move.
Especially considering that from what I understand, Stephen still doesn't really have enough people to fully repopulate this (relatively) small segment of territory.
The main detriment to not occupying a huge area of land you can't actually control or populate enough to exploit, is that your enemies might occupy it. But that won't happen here, because the Eonir can put down forest goblins and beastmen in a dense forest far easier thana state army can.
With the Beasttide building up, he and his province seem to have set themselves up to survive as well as anyone could expect to.
Then you realize that aside form the colored lines, this whole map is from a an original canon source. An Original Canon source where Grubber's whole story arc took place in Ostmark, and Nordland hadn't had their population devastated by Nurgle cultists.
This isn't Stephen giving up two thirds of his territory, this is Stephen admitting that Nordland doesn't control this territory, and never did control that vast majority of it in any meaningful way.
Honestly, what it reminds me of, was when the old Ostland counts finally admitted they weren't going to be ruling Kislev, and left.
Looking at the scale of this map, Nordland's reformed borders still conservatively contain 20000 square miles. That's 125% the land area of the Netherlands.
After everything I've seen in thread, that the vast majority of the Empire is unpopulated or severely underpopulated wilderness, crawling with mortal dangers, deciding to build moderately tall sounds like a wise move.
Especially considering that from what I understand, Stephen still doesn't really have enough people to fully repopulate this (relatively) small segment of territory.
The main detriment to not occupying a huge area of land you can't actually control or populate enough to exploit, is that your enemies might occupy it. But that won't happen here, because the Eonir can put down forest goblins and beastmen in a dense forest far easier thana state army can.
With the Beasttide building up, he and his province seem to have set themselves up to survive as well as anyone could expect to.
Blackout
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Weeell, it does also have Eonir kidnapping human travelers to perform blood sacrifices to the Forest Spirits.
Hm, Nordland went from technically one of the biggest provinces, to now de facto small. Is it the size of Hochland or old Solland roughly? basically the small sized counties?
and yeah, the benefits of this deal are obvious, hopefully enough that 100+ years later they keep it up.
and yeah, the benefits of this deal are obvious, hopefully enough that 100+ years later they keep it up.
Voikirium
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Modern Warhammer tries not giving elves the stupidest possible fucking lore for ten minutes challenge (99% impossible)