Anyways, yours isn't the same as Mayto's anyway, I've read it, so it is unique.

Moving on from topic a bit, I wonder how Verena and her cultists view study of medicine and such considering her domain of knowledge and science.

I would not be surprised if surgeons and such down south pray to her during their studies of human bodies.
Makes me remember that other gods have views of the body like Morr, as Elspeth said to An only to get scoffed at.
 
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If it bothers you enough, you could add it to the thread banner?

The core issue with this is that there's nothing wrong, with mentioning or acknowledging the existence of other quests. The issue, instead, comes about with something exactly like what's just happened.

From a creative, writer, GM standpoint, it's infuriating. I've steadily been showing their growth in terms of medicine/surgery, I've shown in the Sidestory sections that there was discussion of the Jade Dragon's dedication to healing/medicine, I've shown most recently them doing surgical stuff to the vampires to interrogate them. Clearly, these users of Shyish are interested/focused on things like surgery. But we've also discussed, in-thread a couple times at this point, the issues of medicine/surgery and the competing concepts on the body and its treatment. Things like studying anatomy vs. accusations of necromancy, and more. To the point that books which closely examine human anatomy sometimes are treated as books of necromancy - because they were written by them - and there's the whole thing about corpse stealing for study for earnest physicians who want to learn to help others. And the thing with the Twins being incredibly versed in Morrite theology, but not themselves superbly strict Morrites. They're closer to Yemaraja religously at this point, and he doesn't have the same tenets as Morr.

There was even a mysterious section where the twins were hiding something from their teacher on the way back to the Empire.

The point, is that now, if/when I were to reveal something like that, the dramatic impact of it has simply ceased to be, at least for me as the writer. Because now it appears like a cheap imitation or alteration on something else that someone else has already done. And it doesn't even have to necessarily be true, they could be distinct from one another, but at the end of the day there's a difference between writing a homage to another quest, a cheeky little reference, an fun little acknowledgement, and doing so on purpose, and not doing it on purpose.

There's an inherent thing about writing something and building up to something, only to have - even if it's not done maliciously - the air get popped out of the balloon. To try and do something interesting, creative, clever, all in preparation for a reveal, only to have that momentum internally stolen out from beneath you. Planning part of a party for someone, only for someone else to mention something that's close to what you were already going to do. It doesn't have to be the exact same thing. It's just close enough to take the wind out of your sails, even if temporarily. Like...it's not a spoiler, technically. But it sorta feels like one anyway? In some ways?

Listen. I think that Mayto is doing a great job. Voikirium is doing a great job. Swordo is doing a great job. Blackout is doing a great job. Boney is doing a great job. soulcake is doing a great job. yrsillar is doing a great job. Durin is doing a great job. But I just don't necessarily want to draw things from their quests out of nowhere, or things like that. I'll ask before I do, for anything too in depth. A Grey Wizard who is short and has a big hat is one thing, something about the runic powers/Waystone network intricacies of the Eight Peaks is another. Potential lore on a powerful Runelord who made toys or what not in the northern Dwarf Realms, that's one thing, straight up naming that Runelord is another. And so on.

I don't know if I've communicated my feelings on this correctly, honestly. Because I love their writing, their quests, their hard work. And somedays, sometimes, it's interesting to think about how things are going on in their quests compared to my own. I don't know if I can explain, exactly, how it's just sort of disheartening to read posts like that at sometimes, and sometimes not. It seems to depend. Which is why, generally, I ask that we just keep out usual comparisons or whatever, because I don't care for them for the most part. Mentions are one thing, but pulling content unasked for, making comparisons, it's just a road I don't particularly care for the vast majority of the time.

Honestly, it feels like I'm being a weirdly little fragile glass creature or whatever about this sort of thing, which is also incredibly frustrating, but that's an inward facing sort of thing. So my emotions get all over the dang place, you know what I mean? Which just annoys me more, but towards myself for being frustrated, because why? Why should I be? Why should it bother me? Some kinda idiot just writhing uncomfortably in his own brain? What a weird creature. Ugh.

If we could all just move on, I would greatly appreciate it.
 
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Sorry for the disturbance. Accidentally posted it here, it was going to be bigger and ask a few more questions about witch hunter reaction and potential differences between purposely built undead monstrosities vs shambling corpses.

It also should have gone in the other thread now that I think about it. As it was directly discussing a development over there.
 
Moving on from topic a bit, I wonder how Verena and her cultists view study of medicine and such considering her domain of knowledge and science.

I would not be surprised if surgeons and such down south pray to her during their studies of human bodies.
Come to think of it I'll bet there have been some heated discussions on biology between Verenans whose domain is science and knowledge and Morrites whose domain is caring for the dead and death.
 
Come to think of it I'll bet there have been some heated discussions on biology between Verenans whose domain is science and knowledge and Morrites whose domain is caring for the dead and death.
As they aren't necessarily for the proliferation of such bannd knowledge, they'll stay friendly here and freely distribute in Tilea(Ironically Morrite Central), Estalia...etc. where it is acceptable.

Making them sort of a cartel or a corporation.
 
Come to think of it I'll bet there have been some heated discussions on biology between Verenans whose domain is science and knowledge and Morrites whose domain is caring for the dead and death.
Sure there has, especially since lots of members of cult ascribe to belief the two gods are married. Sure cultists interact a lot.

But yeah, Morrites believe dead bodies should be ritually dealt with as soon as possible and any attempt to mess with them is in poor taste at best and necromancy at worst. While Verenans likely think respectful study of human body through corpses can be done to increase knowledge in general for betterment of all.
 
@torroar

The Twins have been with their Sis in Kislev, so I am curious how much Salyak differs from Shallya on matters such as Surgery and Magic?

If Shallyans use Shyish, then do Salyakians also do so? Or do Salyak Clergy use other Winds such as Ghyran or Hysh?
 
Tor, your not being werid.. I do not entirely get the context as I don't always read ever user on the thread but. You are a wonderful writer unquestionably *you* and i can get why having a world ,*you have made your own* compared to another variation of that world has to..itch sometimes















Keep on writing when as as your willing able and want to
 
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1. Last I want to say on the topic, and then I don't wanna think about it anymore for at least a few IRL months. Or one hopes, at least. I think the idea of what's been done with medicine/Shyish/anatomy in Mayto's work is fine. There's enough similarities there with my own ideas relating to the subject, at least, which I would hope are also pretty good. I just don't love seeing it abruptly brought up in this thread. It should be entirely fine for two things to exist near each other without being pushed into each other. If someone is reading both quests, it should be enough that they could go 'oh, hey, that's neat' without quoting in/bringing up/etc. something else into one or the other thread as relating to a different thread. Not because one or the other did something bad, but because it can take away a bit of the power/impact of what one author might have been waiting days or months or longer in the thread to reveal. That's it. That's all I'm saying. There is nothing wrong at all with conceptual convergent evolution. It has, does, and will continue to happen because that's just life. But so long as they're not brought up overmuch, it's the same effect as the coyote running over the cliff - it's fine unless he looks down. It's the difference between 'that's interesting, that's sort of like this other thing' and 'hey, that other thing already happened, eh'. At least for me.

My issue is that I was overly wary, I think. The info, plus prior recent mentions of the Twins surgery/dissection traits plus mentions of religion, Morrite issues on anatomy studies in the past, in-quest Morrite theological splits, recent issues/friction between the Cults of Taal and Rhya, and a handful of other things ongoing in DoDA. All of it was particular contexts that, as GM, I saw unfolding from a more neurotic perspective by virtue of being, well, me. With all the background notes and what not.

So I figure I overreacted, now that I've slept on it. Apologies to all involved, my brain sucks sometimes. I got way too anxious over something minor.

Now please, let's all move on. I appreciate the kindness and so forth, but please, let's just move on.

2. All casting priests and priestesses of the Gods use the Winds of Magic. All of them. The difference is that it is filtered through basically the Divine Sieve which is the God in question, which reduces a lot of the potential issues that pure Arcane casters have to deal with. Though, they do exchange that for the God in question being mad at the priest if said priest does something against scripture/tenets or just acts too arrogant/demanding/etc. This is a notable issue for Priests of Morr, who find they cannot deny the Purple Wind's presence in their lives and end up as Amethyst Wizards a lot, in canon.

Generally, the idea is that a regular human can't grasp multiple Winds, usually. They'd go insane. But with Divine Participation, they do wield multiple Winds, but in greatly different ways than Wizards or the like. This is why the Liche Priests of Nehekhara are Liche *Priests*, their spells being prayers or exultations of the Gods of Nehekhara. Shallyans do not wield Shyish. They wield the favor of Shallya. In doing so they can numb pain, ease insanity, heal wounds, cure diseases, etc. They do not specifically wield any one Wind, they simply pray for a specific result/effort, not prioritizing any Wind at all. Many would not know their names or effects in any case. Many Imperials would be offended to hear Teclis say that so many of their priests are just Wizards with improper education, or however he phrases it.
 
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3) Magnus cares to actually intervene when Kislev has never been an ally of the Empire, but rather that of the Hohenzollerns. He has no reason to interfere in what otherwise appears to be a purely internal conflict with no bullshit from Chaos and other parties.
Kislev is where chaos goes through before it gets to the empire. Only an idiot allows his buffer state to crash and burn without sending help.
Granted Kislev hasn't been giving the Empire the warmest of welcomes.
 
Well, moving to a new topic.

Is Eldyra gonna be alright once we do rescue her? Feels like her mind shattered from the Druichii handling.

I also feel like she's gonna be feeling a lot of guilt since her rescue party got intercepted and was smashed to pieces. So if she gets back, that's also on her head.
 
Other question is how many other High Elves were potentially taken prisoners. As much as the Druchii cannot fuck around when fighting Asur, they probably held the absolute advantage and might have captured more of them. Not all devote themselves to Khaine and Asur are their favorite captives/slaves/etc.

That's usually a worse fate than simple death, but in this case we might actually get them out of captivity. Given their feud it's not going to be pleasant, but better than slavery.

In light of this Tyrion is probably going to visit soon, too, which means the Everqueen might be coming as well. Makes me almost wish the Beasstide occurs simultaneously just for us to have Tyrion murderblend his way through them.
 
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Well, moving to a new topic.

Is Eldyra gonna be alright once we do rescue her? Feels like her mind shattered from the Druichii handling.

I also feel like she's gonna be feeling a lot of guilt since her rescue party got intercepted and was smashed to pieces. So if she gets back, that's also on her head.
Depends she was in the DE hands for less time than the WE twins but the DE are Much Better at torture. Her body can be healed its the rest thats the problem, what with the wellness of of the twins now as a baseline.
 
I doubt she'll be hunky dory or anything like that, but young as she is she's still Tyrion's squire. She's probably made of stern enough stuff to bounce back from a brief (by elven standards at least) period of Druchii torture. I'd be more worried about the ramifications for her political career...but well, knowing how Ulthuan typically regards human militaries and their achievements there's pretty good odds that the lion's share of the credit for any Black Arks that get sunk here will probably go to her and Sadrina regardless of any attempts she makes to deny it, so she'll probably be fine on that front.
 
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Depends she was in the DE hands for less time than the WE twins but the DE are Much Better at torture. Her body can be healed its the rest thats the problem, what with the wellness of of the twins now as a baseline.
Nothing to worry about. Everqueen/Ariel can handle whatever a dreadlord/executioner could do within.... Oh dear.
She's been captured for 2+months at least.
Her mind has every reason to be shattered.
 
Generally, the main thing is that the Cult of Shallya believe in comfort and what not. Wiping you down with a cold cloth, feeding you, keeping you in a nice warm blanket, and praying over you - which, this being Mallus, works sometimes with sheer divine prayer power.

They do not necessarily believe in cutting someone open with a saw to remove something, or perform amputations, or whatever, because such things could constitute causing pain to the patient which is the opposite of their usual philosophy. In the Tome of Salvation there's even a grumbling bit:

"They're just sneaky, manipulative politicians who steal business
from honest folk. Someone should expose them for the frauds
they are."
—Master Augustus Limmerskind, Altdorf Doctor


So there is, while not necessarily actual friction between them and those considered Doktors or Physicians or whatever, they are not themselves necessarily perfectly aligned either. It's more likely you've got the latter group who, sure, pray to Shallya and what not, but are not themselves actually members of the Order of the Bleeding Heart. So in a large army camp, you've likely got the general cultists, like 'The Shallyans and the Morrites' who care for the wounded living and dying/dead, but you've also got the armies Barber-Surgeons and so on at the same time.
I don't think you've been interpreting Shallyans correctly. That Augustus Limmerskind quote wasn't supposed to communicate to the reader that Shallyans are unskilled hacks, it's that there's physicians like Limmerskind who'll slander the charitable, professional healers to drive up business for themselves and keep charging high prices for their services. "sneaky, manipulative politicians" and "frauds" do not in fact accurately describe Shallyans, and the people they're stealing business from are, at least in some cases (like this one), certainly not honest folk.

While the running joke of the gameline is physicians denigrating Shallyans for the sake of profit and status, WFRP Companion is the exception. The book says Shallyans are unskilled quacks who rely on miracles more than anything. This is because the author of the relevant section - Steve Darlington - missed the joke. The book says Shallyans rarely have a Heal skill above 50%. In actuality, the average Shallyan initiate has a Heal skill of 51%, a full priestess having an average of 61%. The book says Shallyans can't treat disease and mental illness without divine magic and that such things are therefore for doctors to treat. Really? Come on.

I can imagine surgery being a point of contention within the cult (some think it's good, some think it's bad), but they absolutely have a good grasp on actual medicine, not just praying the sickness away. They understand hygiene, bedrest, herbs, chemistry, nutrition, not aggressively experimenting on asylum patients or making them fight each other for the entertainment of Altdorfers who pay 3 shillings for the privilege, anatomy, and so on. The mass of books in the Helmgart temple are not an excessive compendium of techniques for tucking people into bed.

Shallyans still operate from a pre-modern understanding of medicine, so there's limits in their ability to treat problems of the mind and the body. For the time period though, they're at least as good as everyone else when it comes to medicine. There are plenty of doktors who are good at their job and have good relations with the Cult of Shallya, and it's a doktor who'll come up with germ theory in 2512 IC. That doesn't mean you should take one at their word when they call Shallyans a bunch of duplicitous hacks and say you should pay a physician for healing instead.

EDIT: To be clear, my point of contention isn't the surgery stuff, it's the other stuff.
 
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I don't think you're interpreting my usage of a single quote correctly. I was not using him as a basis for the overall relationship between doktors/physicians and the Cult of Shallya throughout the entire Old World, I was using him as a single small point to demonstrate that there can be friction between doktors/physicians and the Cult of Shallya. At no point was I deriding the Cult as incapable of healing or treating things as compared to others. They run asylums, and of course they're capable of treating people to a reasonable extent. A lot of people prefer them greatly over doktors/physicians, and that's generally fine, because they do a reasonable amount of good work. Not every single Priestess of Shallya is capable of calling upon the Divine Lore, but they still manage to run asylums and sick houses that take appreciable care of people, to the point of being the ones to help petition the Emperor to create/manifest a better set of standards for said asylums for the better treatment of the mentally ill.

At no point did I say they were without knowledge about things like hygiene. They oppose Nurgle significantly, of course they know a lot about ways to defy him, including various sorts of treatments, things like nutrition and hygiene and general herbology and various kinds of medicines. I didn't say that they didn't?? At zero points did I say they were utterly ignorant about medicine. At zero points did I say that anyone should take that single quote as the greater feeling of the medical non-Shallya Cultist practitioner. And that they were differences amongst the Cultists, like there are in any Cult. There are some Shallyans who would weep but help amputate someone's overly infected arm to help save them, and there are others who would not do so. That's all that was being said there??? That there would be differences depending on the Shallyans in question depending on the treatments required?

I don't just use the Companion. I use the Tome of Salvation, I use Archives of the Empire II which discusses their hospices/places of specific treatments and specialties from mental disorders to various kinds of diseases, and so on.
 
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I don't think you're interpreting my usage of a single quote correctly. I was not using him as a basis for the overall relationship between doktors/physicians and the Cult of Shallya throughout the entire Old World, I was using him as a single small point to demonstrate that there can be friction between doktors/physicians and the Cult of Shallya. At no point was I deriding the Cult as incapable of healing or treating things as compared to others. They run asylums, and of course they're capable of treating people to a reasonable extent. A lot of people prefer them greatly over doktors/physicians, and that's generally fine, because they do a reasonable amount of good work. Not every single Priestess of Shallya is capable of calling upon the Divine Lore, but they still manage to run asylums and sick houses that take appreciable care of people, to the point of being the ones to help petition the Emperor to create/manifest a better set of standards for said asylums for the better treatment of the mentally ill.

At no point did I say they were without knowledge about things like hygiene. They oppose Nurgle significantly, of course they know a lot about ways to defy him, including various sorts of treatments, things like nutrition and hygiene and general herbology and various kinds of medicines. I didn't say that they didn't?? At zero points did I say they were utterly ignorant about medicine. At zero points did I say that anyone should take that single quote as the greater feeling of the medical non-Shallya Cultist practitioner. And that they were differences amongst the Cultists, like there are in any Cult. There are some Shallyans who would weep but help amputate someone's overly infected arm to help save them, and there are others who would not do so. That's all that was being said there??? That there would be differences depending on the Shallyans in question depending on the treatments required?

I don't just use the Companion. I use the Tome of Salvation, I use Archives of the Empire II which discusses their hospices/places of specific treatments and specialties from mental disorders to various kinds of diseases, and so on.
My interpretation of what you were saying came from the first paragraph, which contextualised the rest of what you said:
Generally, the main thing is that the Cult of Shallya believe in comfort and what not. Wiping you down with a cold cloth, feeding you, keeping you in a nice warm blanket, and praying over you - which, this being Mallus, works sometimes with sheer divine prayer power.
The way this reads, it's like it's saying the Cult of Shallya's more about making you comfortable as you die than actually treating you, save for the use of divine magic. With that context in mind, the quotation seemed to be saying the contention between doktors and Shallyans came from the former being actually good at medicine and the Shallyans not being good at medicine, rather than only saying that contention between the two exists.
 
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@torroar , @Andres , I'm looking at your posts here as a whole and this is starting to look like a case of violent agreement.

I'm not a big name on this thread, but can I suggest that everyone just back up for a minute and allow tempers to cool?

EDIT:

Because this really doesn't feel, intuitively, like a great time for a clash over something that's ultimately rather tangential.
 
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