Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

[Zaealix]

*crosses arms*
...*thinks* So I guess the reason Freddy is simultainously Blessed by Sigmar but also has a Demonic counterpart just waiting to take his skull and present it to Khorne is because while we've Acted to stamp out Chaos and build the Empire we've also Acted in ways that Chaos Approves of. Like we're trying to be smart but even in being smart we're ending up taking 'the first step' before doing something to break the pattern and keep the number of doom from tolling on us. And even then...
Well. Three Demon Imps in Natasha's womb...
*groans* It's fun the mess of theorum, politics just...A big tangling snarl of a knot that knowledge and settings are.

 

[spudman]

IF there is a 'version' of Frederick in the Realm of Chaos right now (assuming that's precisely what the dream in the Laurelorn epilogue was), it would be because a big portion of his soul was ripped out and sent there as part of a ritual sacrifice during Karak Ungor. Not because of anything he did that would compromise his soul in one way or another.

 

[Qeqre]

To be fair, Freddy's soul was already compromised to the point of fracturing by the time it was ritually sacrificed in Karak Ungor. It's why only (an admittedly large)part of the soul got yanked out.

Without the ritual, we might've kept seeing multicoloured rolls with Freddy's soul continuing to fragment and splinter until he either mutated, died or if some benign and hard-to-replicate act of divine intervention occurred. Like consecutive crazy high rolls from the Sigmarite part until it assimilated all other energies for example. Or Freddy deliberately stepping into Ulric's Fire to burn away the tainted portions(roll to survive). Or the Everqueen deigning to grace Freddy with her presence.

Edit: I'm not quite certain on the Sigmarite assimilation possibility, and the Ulric's flame possibility pretty much broils down to whether or not we think Logan is currently pure.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I'm talking about the political paradigm that Warhammer operates under and how it's Fantasy reflects it. it's the same as pointing out that Kislev is a month in Judaism that corresponds to November-December and the deepest Winter making the name of the nation in Warhammer one big "Soviet Russia is being run by Jews" meme.

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...Uh, no, it just makes it one big "Russia == Winter" meme. There's no Soviet reference at all there, Kislev is Czarist Russia and not Soviet Russia.

On the philosophical front Warhammer has two starting points:

- The Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale is a philosophical concept that as a Sapient species advances up the Kardashev Scale it needs to go trough social adjustments of the structure of it's civilization or suffer a cataclysm that sets it back lower on the Energy/Population scale. The version that Warhammer references regularly in it's subtext is the Filter Code Sin one.

So Code Sin Wrath/Roaring Filter, Code Sin Sloth/Beaten In Filter, Code Sin Greed Filter, Code Sin Envy Filter, Code Sin Grief Filter, Code Sin Shame/"Vainglory" Filter, Code Sin Lust Filter, Code Sin Gluttony Filter, Code Sin Spite Filter and Code Sin Embarrassment/"Hubris" Filter.

- The Warriors of the Veil is a take on the nature of faith and belief and how those two things are different and even discordant with one another. Under this system belief is what you say/state your wants for the world to be are and faith is what you actually make of the world around you with your actions.

...

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Where are you getting all this from? It's extremely detailed, I've never heard of it before, and I have to question whether it really applies to the setting- like, is it confirmed that this is all part of the theology of Chaos? Or is this stuff you basically, uh... made up? I can't tell.

 

[Ekzentric Lohner]

Maybe I'm mixing it up with 40K, but isn't Warhammer inherently political due to being based off of political satire?

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I know 40K started as satire, but too many authors focused on the Grimdark without remembering that it was supposed to be a joke and too many edgelord fanboys took it seriously and turned the whole thing into a demonstration of Poe's Law at work.

That's the problem with this kind of satire - the people who really are satirizing the political/philosophical ideas that require all this Grimdark in order to be justified are indistinguishable from the people who actually believe in those political/philosophical ideas and are deliberately glorifying them and then using "it's just a joke" as an excuse if they're called on it. And the former frequently inspire the latter instead of getting their intended point across.

 

[Garlak]

... Eh, pretty sure it's just Kiev. As others pointed out when this first came up. That sounds about exactly right for the level of "Warhammer name origins" stuff, naming it after Kiev. Same as with Bretonnia and Britanny or the Britons or Great Britain. A slightly-altered place-name like Kiev -- like with Bretonnia, Tilea, Estalia, Araby, Cathay -- makes more sense and fits in more. Even if it were the month, I don't see how that even makes the 'joke' or hidden message make sense. It feels like a bit of a stretch even then.

... Honestly, if anything, I've kind of sometimes wondered whether Kislev had a secondary sort-of reference to "kislaya", aka "sour" in Russian. Put it off as coincidence though. The sounds are only the same in the first half.

 

[Qeqre]

I know 40K started as satire, but too many authors focused on the Grimdark without remembering that it was supposed to be a joke and too many edgelord fanboys took it seriously and turned the whole thing into a demonstration of Poe's Law at work.

That's the problem with this kind of satire - the people who really are satirizing the political/philosophical ideas that require all this Grimdark in order to be justified are indistinguishable from the people who actually believe in those political/philosophical ideas and are deliberately glorifying them and then using "it's just a joke" as an excuse if they're called on it. And the former frequently inspire the latter instead of getting their intended point across.

Click to shrink...

Simple solution. Laugh and poke fun at the concepts.* Promote the notion that these ideas are deserving of ridicule.
If your mockery is funny, the first group will laugh with you because it's funny and the second group will laugh with you to save face. Both will appear to belong to the first group, thus demoralizing members of the second group.

*or even just at how unrealistically grimdark the setting is so the actual edgelords have a harder time trying to justify RL authoritarianism.

 

[ilbgar123]

Simple solution. Laugh and poke fun at the concepts.* Promote the notion that these ideas are deserving of ridicule.
If your mockery is funny, the first group will laugh with you because it's funny and the second group will laugh with you to save face. Both will appear to belong to the first group, thus demoralizing members of the second group.

*or even just at how unrealistically grimdark the setting is so the actual edgelords have a harder time trying to justify RL authoritarianism.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, my response to most nihilistic points is 'Okay. So? You haven't told me anything I didn't know.' and something similar tends to leave grimdark edgelords flabbergasted. They're like Nurglites. They want to drag everyone down to their level, and when they get met with 'And?' they just kind of peter out for lack of any response.

Generally, my response to Authoritarianism is 'Okay, but you realize the people in charge will still be people and by your own logic no more likely to be good or competent than anyone else?' Much like Anti-Nihilists, I've swung so far into misanthropy, that I've come back around to anti-authoritarianism!

 

[Knightperson]

Yeah, my response to most nihilistic points is 'Okay. So? You haven't told me anything I didn't know.' and something similar tends to leave grimdark edgelords flabbergasted. They're like Nurglites. They want to drag everyone down to their level, and when they get met with 'And?' they just kind of peter out for lack of any response.

Generally, my response to Authoritarianism is 'Okay, but you realize the people in charge will still be people and by your own logic no more likely to be good or competent than anyone else?' Much like Anti-Nihilists, I've swung so far into misanthropy, that I've come back around to anti-authoritarianism!

Click to shrink...

Keep learning, young one. Soon you'll see more of the truth and come to see that your anti-authoritarianism was misguided, and you'll begin to speak anti-anti-authoritatively - but the nuance will be missed by most, and you'll have to suffer through being perceived as being a mere misguided authoritarian and not the learned examiner of the human condition you truly are.

It's turtles all the way down, my friend.

 

[Archaicx1]

Is paper cartridge's possible in this world? After all they are relatively easy to make (at least in modern terms) and would greatly enhance the reloading times of our handgunners. (Assuming that they are loading it like old time muskets with black powder like the wiki suggests, admittedly I don't know what Handguns signify. I assume a larger musket that in real life).

 

[REAPER35]

I think it's mainly matchlocks with especially well made rifles being wheellocks. the dwarfs MIGHT have flintlocks at this point.

 

[Mopman43]

... Eh, pretty sure it's just Kiev. As others pointed out when this first came up. That sounds about exactly right for the level of "Warhammer name origins" stuff, naming it after Kiev.

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I go by that position, myself. Like, Pragg is just Prague but spelled weird, and Erengrad just sounds like a Russian city.

 

[Dmol8]

...Uh, no, it just makes it one big "Russia == Winter" meme. There's no Soviet reference at all there, Kislev is Czarist Russia and not Soviet Russia.

Click to shrink...

... Eh, pretty sure it's just Kiev. As others pointed out when this first came up. That sounds about exactly right for the level of "Warhammer name origins" stuff, naming it after Kiev. Same as with Bretonnia and Britanny or the Britons or Great Britain. A slightly-altered place-name like Kiev -- like with Bretonnia, Tilea, Estalia, Araby, Cathay -- makes more sense and fits in more. Even if it were the month, I don't see how that even makes the 'joke' or hidden message make sense. It feels like a bit of a stretch even then.

... Honestly, if anything, I've kind of sometimes wondered whether Kislev had a secondary sort-of reference to "kislaya", aka "sour" in Russian. Put it off as coincidence though. The sounds are only the same in the first half.

Click to shrink...

I go by that position, myself. Like, Pragg is just Prague but spelled weird, and Erengrad just sounds like a Russian city.

Click to shrink...

Kislev sounds like Kiev. The name first appears in the 2nd edition so 2004. Because of the old Cold War antisemitic meme "That Communism is a Jewish Plot" Russia has a meme of being run by Jews so it could be just the usually Warhammer naming conventions, it could be a reference to kislaya or it could be an antisemitic meme. Or it could be a mix of those three or even all of those three things at the same time. It's Warhammer Fantasy and it has a history of really racist stuff in it and as such I assume racism was involved if the possibility exists for it. Then there is also the fact that:

I know 40K started as satire, but too many authors focused on the Grimdark without remembering that it was supposed to be a joke and too many edgelord fanboys took it seriously and turned the whole thing into a demonstration of Poe's Law at work.

That's the problem with this kind of satire - the people who really are satirizing the political/philosophical ideas that require all this Grimdark in order to be justified are indistinguishable from the people who actually believe in those political/philosophical ideas and are deliberately glorifying them and then using "it's just a joke" as an excuse if they're called on it. And the former frequently inspire the latter instead of getting their intended point across.

Click to shrink...

Simple solution. Laugh and poke fun at the concepts.* Promote the notion that these ideas are deserving of ridicule.
If your mockery is funny, the first group will laugh with you because it's funny and the second group will laugh with you to save face. Both will appear to belong to the first group, thus demoralizing members of the second group.

*or even just at how unrealistically grimdark the setting is so the actual edgelords have a harder time trying to justify RL authoritarianism.

Click to shrink...

Edgelords don't just take Warhammer, Fantasy or 40K, straight, they also wrote and write some of the lore for it as well so if one of the names of a nation fits into the Warhammer Fantasy naming conventions and serves as an antisemitic in-joke to Edgelords then at best the writers of Warhammer Fantasy picked a very unfortunate name. At best.

Pragg is a Switzerland city name. I don't have the mental energy to spare to look up what it means right now since I want to finish my philosophy post(s).

Beograd means White City in Serbian with Beo meaning white and grad meaning city or hail. Russian has a similar naming convention and grad in Russian means city or hail or riot (I think, I'm missing some nuance on this second meaning so it could be scuffle maybe or something similar) and eren actually has multiple ways to be written out/spoken in russian so it could be made of hair or it could be horseradish or it could be actually eren and in that case I honestly don't have the time to dig out what the hell does that mean in russian. I'd have to ask someone fluent in russian for that one.

OK one more post and then back to the philosophy stuff.

Edit: Thanks to @Simon_Jester for pointing out a brainfart of mine. Grad also means city in Russian see underlined words for this edit. Also the Strike-trough parts are another brainfart of mine since I confused kheren and khren for eren.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Edgelords don't just take Warhammer, Fantasy or 40K, straight, they also wrote and write some of the lore for it as well so if one of the names of a nation fits into the Warhammer Fantasy naming conventions and serves as an antisemitic in-joke to Edgelords then at best the writers of Warhammer Fantasy picked a very unfortunate name. At best.

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The problem is there are a LOT of Hebrew words, so there are a LOT of potential names for a "Sort of Foreign Sounding" country or city that sound 'suspiciously' like one or more Hebrew words.

Once you start building your arguments around "this word sounds kind of like that word that is, uh... well, it's offensive because of what language it's in!" then your potential for false positives and just plain being mistaken about where the references becomehilariously high. Remember how easy it is for conspiracy theorists to construct entirely fake arguments out of nothing based on this kind of "six degrees of separation" logic, where "Kislev sounds like one of dozens of Hebrew words associated with winter, and Kislev is a fantasy version of Russia, and so to antisemites it's an in-joke because of course they know and immediately recognize the names of Hebrew months and of course will immediately get the "this fantasy version of Czarist Russia is ruled by Jews." reference.

Almost anything can be used to prove almost anything if you make enough inferential leaps getting from A to B... It's just that the proof becomes useless.

Pragg is a Switzerland city name.

Click to shrink...

"Pragg" is also functionally how English-speakers pronounce "Prague," the name of the city that is now the capital of the Czech Republic (for all I know you may think of it as 'Praha'). Since Prague/Praha is at least sort of Eastern European while Switzerland decidedly is not, I suspect that the more likely source of the reference is the Czech one.

Beograd means White City in Serbian with Beo meaning white and grad meaning city or hail. Russian has a similar naming convention, but grad in Russian means hail or riot (I think, I'm missing some nuance on this second meaning so it could be scuffle maybe or something similar)

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Yes, indeed you are correct; 'grad' ALSO means, quite conspicuously, "city" in Russian. See as examples of this Petrograd, Volgograd/Stalingrad, and Kaliningrad, just for starters.

But you should bear in mind that when talking about Games Workshop, the reality is that the authors were quite likely to not speak Russian or any other Slavic language and to just make up vaguely Russian-sounding nonsense words

 

[Dmol8]

Yeah, my response to most nihilistic points is 'Okay. So? You haven't told me anything I didn't know.' and something similar tends to leave grimdark edgelords flabbergasted. They're like Nurglites. They want to drag everyone down to their level, and when they get met with 'And?' they just kind of peter out for lack of any response.

Generally, my response to Authoritarianism is 'Okay, but you realize the people in charge will still be people and by your own logic no more likely to be good or competent than anyone else?' Much like Anti-Nihilists, I've swung so far into misanthropy, that I've come back around to anti-authoritarianism!

Click to shrink...

Yeah pretty much. The Shock Corridor I'm talking about right now is a sub-culture of those sorts of grimdark edgelords. I've gone hypersane(shortest explanation of the concept I've got so it skips over some nuances) at this point so I'm not capable of being a misanthrope now. Can't really hate or pity people at this point.

Keep learning, young one. Soon you'll see more of the truth and come to see that your anti-authoritarianism was misguided, and you'll begin to speak anti-anti-authoritatively - but the nuance will be missed by most, and you'll have to suffer through being perceived as being a mere misguided authoritarian and not the learned examiner of the human condition you truly are.

It's turtles all the way down, my friend.

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The old Philosopher King argument is flawed at best.

Where are you getting all this from? It's extremely detailed, I've never heard of it before, and I have to question whether it really applies to the setting- like, is it confirmed that this is all part of the theology of Chaos? Or is this stuff you basically, uh... made up? I can't tell.

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Confirmed? No it's not. This is Warhammer most stuff is never confirmed, but it does show up in the subtext and metatext that is common to both Warhammer Settings. So it's more a philosophical paradigm that is constantly present in the setting over multiple iterations of it.

I didn't make it up, but the reason you haven't heard of it is because it is two different obscure philosophical paradigms and the Code Sin Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale which is a recent codification and I'm using the Serbian version of the terminology for it since I don't know if there is an English one.

The Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale is a philosophical answer to the Fermi Paradox using the concept of the Kardashev Scale:

- The Fermi Paradox was codified in the summer of 1950 by Enrico Fermi, Edwards Teller, Herbert York and Emil Konopinski.

- The Kardashev Scale was codified by Nikolai Kardashev in 1964 as an Energy Scale, but other people added their own versions of the Scale since Energy was found to be inaccurate on it's own: Kardashev-Zubrin Landownership Scale, Kardashev-Sagan Information Scale, Kardashev-Barrow Microdimensional Scale, Kardashev-Zubrin Range Scale, Kardashev-Arthur Population Scale. Yes Robert Zubrin made two different scales.

- So ever since the Kardashev Scale was codified people have been trying to figure out if there are Fermi Filters on it and where would such Civilizational Disasters be on the Kardashev Scale. This has resulted in many versions of the Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale by the time Warhammer was being written.

As for the Warriors of the Veil? That obscure philosophical interpretation of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse is at least as old as the Book of Revelations so around 95 AD.

The Code Sin Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale is the only thing that didn't exist at the time of Warhammer Settings creation because it was codified recently (I think somewhere in the last 5 years). But just because something was codified later than a work doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to a work since all a codification is is a standardization of words being used for description of something.

The problem is there are a LOT of Hebrew words, so there are a LOT of potential names for a "Sort of Foreign Sounding" country or city that sound 'suspiciously' like one or more Hebrew words.

Once you start building your arguments around "this word sounds kind of like that word that is, uh... well, it's offensive because of what language it's in!" then your potential for false positives and just plain being mistaken about where the references becomehilariously high. Remember how easy it is for conspiracy theorists to construct entirely fake arguments out of nothing based on this kind of "six degrees of separation" logic, where "Kislev sounds like one of dozens of Hebrew words associated with winter, and Kislev is a fantasy version of Russia, and so to antisemites it's an in-joke because of course they know and immediately recognize the names of Hebrew months and of course will immediately get the "this fantasy version of Czarist Russia is ruled by Jews." reference.

Almost anything can be used to prove almost anything if you make enough inferential leaps getting from A to B... It's just that the proof becomes useless.

Click to shrink...

Yeah fair. I said something similar already.

"Pragg" is also functionally how English-speakers pronounce "Prague," the name of the city that is now the capital of the Czech Republic (for all I know you may think of it as 'Praha'). Since Prague/Praha is at least sort of Eastern European while Switzerland decidedly is not, I suspect that the more likely source of the reference is the Czech one.

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In English it is Praag when spoken not Pragg. Edit 3: And in Warhammer it is called Praag. Another brainfart on my part. Sorry about that.

Yes, indeed you are correct; 'grad' ALSO means, quite conspicuously, "city" in Russian. See as examples of this Petrograd, Volgograd/Stalingrad, and Kaliningrad, just for starters.

But you should bear in mind that when talking about Games Workshop, the reality is that the authors were quite likely to not speak Russian or any other Slavic language and to just make up vaguely Russian-sounding nonsense words

Click to shrink...

Oh right. I actually forgot about that for some reason. Sorry about forgetting that grad means city in Russian as well. My bad. As for Eren? Dude there are like 4 different words in Russian that it could mean: эрен, эрэн, эрень, eren. It doesn't mean horseradish or made of hair. That was a brain fart on my part confusing хрен/khren and Херен/kheren with eren.

Edit: The Underlined stuff was missing from the post on a second look.

Edit 2: Added Херен.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah pretty much. The Shock Corridor I'm talking about right now is a sub-culture of those sorts of grimdark edgelords. I've gone hypersane(shortest explanation of the concept I've got so it skips over some nuances) at this point so I'm not capable of being a misanthrope now. Can't really hate or pity people at this point.

Click to shrink...

Uh, I think you may also have gotten deep into the weeds of seeing connections and conspiracies where they don't necessarily exist. Just an observation...

I didn't make it up, but the reason you haven't heard of it is because it is two different obscure philosophical paradigms and the Code Sin Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale which is a recent codification and I'm using the Serbian version of the terminology for it since I don't know if there is an English one.

The Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale is a philosophical answer to the Fermi Paradox using the concept of the Kardashev Scale:

- The Fermi Paradox was codified in the summer of 1950 by Enrico Fermi, Edwards Teller, Herbert York and Emil Konopinski.

- The Kardashev Scale was codified by Nikolai Kardashev in 1964 as an Energy Scale, but other people added their own versions of the Scale since Energy was found to be inaccurate on it's own: Kardashev-Zubrin Landownership Scale, Kardashev-Sagan Information Scale, Kardashev-Barrow Microdimensional Scale, Kardashev-Zubrin Range Scale, Kardashev-Arthur Population Scale. Yes Robert Zubrin made two different scales.

- So ever since the Kardashev Scale was codified people have been trying to figure out if there are Fermi Filters on it and where would such Civilizational Disasters be on the Kardashev Scale. This has resulted in many versions of the Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale by the time Warhammer was being written.

As for the Warriors of the Veil? That obscure philosophical interpretation of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse is at least as old as the Book of Revelations so around 95 AD.

The Code Sin Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale is the only thing that didn't exist at the time of Warhammer Settings creation because it was codified recently (I think somewhere in the last 5 years). But just because something was codified later than a work doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to a work since all a codification is is a standardization of words being used for description of something.

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OK, so basically you've taken the Kardashev Scale and the Fermi Filter concept (which are widely understood concepts in science fiction), and combined them with this weird Christian apocrypha stuff that is NOT widely accepted or agreed on.

As such, it is unlikely that Warhammer Fantasy aligns well with this weird idea you (or a bunch of other Serbs) only just made up in the past few years that hybridizes science fiction tropes and random Christian apocrypha.

In English it is Praag when spoken not Pragg. Edit 3: And in Warhammer it is called Praag. Another brainfart on my part. Sorry about that.

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In my dialect of English, it is at least possible to pronounce "Pragg" with a long 'a,' the way you appear to imagine 'Praag' to be pronounced, so it's easy for me to miss the distinction. But in any case, the point is that the name of this city in Warhammer Fantasy is almost certainly a reference to Praha/Prague, the capital of the Czech Republic.

Oh right. I actually forgot about that for some reason. Sorry about forgetting that grad means city in Russian as well. My bad. As for Eren? Dude there are like 4 different words in Russian that it could mean: эрен, эрэн, эрень, eren. It doesn't mean horseradish or made of hair. That was a brain fart on my part confusing хрен/khren and Херен/kheren with eren.

Click to shrink...

Remember Occam's Razor.

The most likely explanation is that some English-speaker working for Games Workshop, who, importantly, does not speak any Slavic language, thought "hmmm, how can I make up a fictional city name that sounds very Russian? Well, one pattern I recognize from looking at a map of Russia is a bunch of cities ending in 'grad,' with a few random syllables that may be a name or something before that. I think I will make up a few nonsense syllables that sound like they might plausibly be from the Russian language, then stick 'grad' on the end."

In much the same way I might make up a fictional Central Asian country and call it [word]-istan, not knowing that my choice of the nonsense fictional [word] is somehow a pun in Persian, the language where the 'istan' ending originated.

 

[The Lone badger]

I think it's mainly matchlocks with especially well made rifles being wheellocks. the dwarfs MIGHT have flintlocks at this point.

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Pretty sure everyone is matchlocks at the moment. In the Normal Canon period wheellocks are becoming common, but I think we're too early for them.

 

[Dmol8]

Uh, I think you may also have gotten deep into the weeds of seeing connections and conspiracies where they don't necessarily exist. Just an observation...

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Sigh. Look I'm not a conspiracy theorist. It's part of the whole hypersanity package: I can't fully descend into paranoia even when I litterally want to. I can however brainfart from time to time and miss things. Annoyingly enough.

OK, so basically you've taken the Kardashev Scale and the Fermi Filter concept (which are widely understood concepts in science fiction), and combined them with this weird Christian apocrypha stuff that is NOT widely accepted or agreed on.

As such, it is unlikely that Warhammer Fantasy aligns well with this weird idea you (or a bunch of other Serbs) only just made up in the past few years that hybridizes science fiction tropes and random Christian apocrypha.

Click to shrink...

No I've taken the concept of a Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale which is an obscure science fiction concept from the 80s and noticed that it is being used in the subtext of Warhammer. Specifically in the Fall of the Eldar and the Age of Strife material in 40K and in the Time of Woes and the Age of Three Emperors in Fantasy. Like Warhammer is obsessed with techo-barbarism which is itself a science fiction concept that originated in the discussions around the Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scales. So no I did not combine those two concepts and this concept has always been relevant to Warhammer and it is relevant to this quest since the Reign of Magnus the Pious is the point where a Filter Collision ended in canon.

As for the weird Christian Apocrypha that is the Warriors of the Veil? It's literally been there in the subtext since at least 2nd Edition of Warhammer Fantasy. Warhammer settings have been obsessed with their universes teetering on the edge of an Apocalypse since at least the early 2000s and this weird Christian Apocrypha is/was the Apocalypse the settings were teetering on the edge of.

As for the Code Sin Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale? Yeah I'm using that as a dictionary more than anything else since it saves me time in explaining what some of the subtexts in the settings are by having actual words to use to describe the concepts. Kind of. I can stop using it since unlike the rest of this philosophical stuff all it does is save me word count.

In my dialect of English, it is at least possible to pronounce "Pragg" with a long 'a,' the way you appear to imagine 'Praag' to be pronounced, so it's easy for me to miss the distinction. But in any case, the point is that the name of this city in Warhammer Fantasy is almost certainly a reference to Praha/Prague, the capital of the Czech Republic.

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Already conceded your point so I don't really understand fully what you are now going on about. Could you explain?

Remember Occam's Razor.

The most likely explanation is that some English-speaker working for Games Workshop, who, importantly, does not speak any Slavic language, thought "hmmm, how can I make up a fictional city name that sounds very Russian? Well, one pattern I recognize from looking at a map of Russia is a bunch of cities ending in 'grad,' with a few random syllables that may be a name or something before that. I think I will make up a few nonsense syllables that sound like they might plausibly be from the Russian language, then stick 'grad' on the end."

In much the same way I might make up a fictional Central Asian country and call it [word]-istan, not knowing that my choice of the nonsense fictional [word] is somehow a pun in Persian, the language where the 'istan' ending originated.

Click to shrink...

It could also be a pun in some other language that descended from a territory controlled by Persia at some point. I'm just incensed there are 4 different words Eren could refer to. Like this is GW who makes a lot of shady appearing decisions with their settings for the purpose of cornering the market on Grimdark. It's why I can't unsee the whole Kislev thing: It could be a nothing accident, but with GW being the way they are I can't just not notice it.

Edit: that one concept is supposed to be singular not plural.

 

[Mister Phantom]

It sure as hell seems like you are taking what is an inordinately expensive model marketing ploy as some form of deep conspiracy. It's made by nerds and for nerds, of course there will be irrelevant/"cool" references to things.

 

[Qeqre]

Oh right. I actually forgot about that for some reason. Sorry about forgetting that grad means city in Russian as well. My bad. As for Eren? Dude there are like 4 different words in Russian that it could mean: эрен, эрэн, эрень, eren. It doesn't mean horseradish or made of hair. That was a brain fart on my part confusing хрен/khren and Херен/kheren with eren.

Click to shrink...

Remember Occam's Razor.

The most likely explanation is that some English-speaker working for Games Workshop, who, importantly, does not speak any Slavic language, thought "hmmm, how can I make up a fictional city name that sounds very Russian? Well, one pattern I recognize from looking at a map of Russia is a bunch of cities ending in 'grad,' with a few random syllables that may be a name or something before that. I think I will make up a few nonsense syllables that sound like they might plausibly be from the Russian language, then stick 'grad' on the end."

In much the same way I might make up a fictional Central Asian country and call it [word]-istan, not knowing that my choice of the nonsense fictional [word] is somehow a pun in Persian, the language where the 'istan' ending originated.

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Doesn't even have to be random.

If you consider the combination of homonyms and beer, there's a bunch of names that sound like Eren(in addition to the Turkish name that is actually spelled Eren).
And if Erin's Isle can be Ireland...

 

[Mopman43]

Kislev actually first appeared in the 1st edition RPG, in the book "Something Rotten in Kislev", though the society described is rather different than modern-day Kislev. For one thing, it's ruled by Norscans.

Modern-Kislev instead first appeared in the 4th edition Empire army book, which included Katarin, Winged Lancers, and Horse Archers as supplemental units that could be taken in an Empire roster.

And then, of course, in 6th edition they got a WD article describing more of their history, included Ungols for the first time since the 1st edition book, and which added Katarin's father, Boris. I think Realm of the Ice Queen came out afterwards, but I'm not certain on that one.

edit: Wait, no, correction on that first bit- I always assumed it came out earlier, but now that I check, SRiK released in 1999, so the Empire army book came first.

I always forget that 1st edition ran through the 90s

 

[Crocea_mors]

I appear to have been quoted, but none of my posts were quoted in the post?

 

[Dmol8]

I appear to have been quoted, but none of my posts were quoted in the post?

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I have this big list of quotes from various posters in my draft to work on my philosophy post. I was sleepy yesterday when making part of the post and also posted the quotes. There are two of your posts in there. I'm not actually sure if I'm quoting anyone other than torroar in the final post, but the quotes help me keep it on topic.

 

[Knightperson]

Dmol8, you're quite a character. Not exactly clear what you're trying to drive at generally. I don't even know what constitutes as on topic.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Sigh. Look I'm not a conspiracy theorist. It's part of the whole hypersanity package: I can't fully descend into paranoia even when I litterally want to. I can however brainfart from time to time and miss things. Annoyingly enough.

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...I mean no disrespect, but I think you may be overestimating your own reliability.

With that being said, my point wasn't to call you a conspiracy theorist. My point was that the same neurological quirk (seeing patterns and connections that do not correspond to reality) is often present in conspiracy theories. Humans have a very strong tendency towards pareidolia, the perception of familiar patterns, symbols, or ideas in the middle of a random collection of stimuli.

Conspiracy theorists get a lot of their energy out of this. It's easy to see evidence of the Illuminati secretly ruling the world, for a man whose pareidolia is in full force. He'll make up connections between concepts and organizations that are spurious or logically nonsensical, or that reverse cause and effect. He'll see secret signals in commonplace things, and from them reverse-engineer elaborate "castle in the air" masses of unsupported speculation about what's "really" going on behind the scenes.

Nearly every human is susceptible to this, to one degree or another.

No I've taken the concept of a Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scale which is an obscure science fiction concept from the 80s and noticed that it is being used in the subtext of Warhammer. Specifically in the Fall of the Eldar and the Age of Strife material in 40K and in the Time of Woes and the Age of Three Emperors in Fantasy. Like Warhammer is obsessed with techo-barbarism which is itself a science fiction concept that originated in the discussions around the Fermi-Kardashev Filter Scales.

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No it didn't. The idea of civilizations regressing after a catastrophe can be found in many references and sources. Plato talked about Atlantis. Plenty of historians of the classical Muslim world and imperial China had cyclic theories of history. You can find techno-barbarism (which I interpret to mean either high-tech societies with low-tech social structure, or low-tech reversion and decay from a high-tech pinnacle) in science fiction long before the 1980s and frankly going back into the '30s and '40s.

This "filter scale" you keep talking about didn't invent the concept, and it fits very poorly to Warhammer Fantasy. Because the "filter scale" appears to be talking about the idea that a civilization experiences existential crises as it expands and advances. And that these crises are of their own making, or associated with their progress (e.g. nuclear weapons proliferation, gray goo nanotech, and so on). But in Warhammer Fantasy, civilizations usually undergo crises brought on by external forces, with internal factors being limited to maybe some traitors undermining things. The dwarves didn't cause the Time of Woes, for instance; it happened due to completely external and unpredictable factors.

As for the weird Christian Apocrypha that is the Warriors of the Veil? It's literally been there in the subtext since at least 2nd Edition of Warhammer Fantasy. Warhammer settings have been obsessed with their universes teetering on the edge of an Apocalypse since at least the early 2000s and this weird Christian Apocrypha is/was the Apocalypse the settings were teetering on the edge of.

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No, not really. I mean, some of the ideas and imagery of Warhammer and the horrors of Chaos and so on are drawn from that! But only some. Not much. There's no one-to-one mapping of complex concepts involving multiple layers of mysticism and "veils" and "seals" and "sin codes" and so on. There's no direct process of these concepts being intentionally copied over and used verbatim in Warhammer, so when you try to make a complex analysis based on the concept in Warhammer, you're inevitably going to be ignoring a lot of the facts.

It could also be a pun in some other language that descended from a territory controlled by Persia at some point. I'm just incensed there are 4 different words Eren could refer to. Like this is GW who makes a lot of shady appearing decisions with their settings for the purpose of cornering the market on Grimdark. It's why I can't unsee the whole Kislev thing: It could be a nothing accident, but with GW being the way they are I can't just not notice it.

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Again, pareidolia.

If your "shady appearing decision" involves something that was clearly intentional on the part of the artist (such as the way that mutants in Warhammer are presented as inherently, irreversibly corrupt and 'must' be killed), then you have good evidence.

If your "shady appearing decision" involves "but place name A sounds vaguely like a word in language B that is spoken by ethnic group C so clearly the place name is a shout-out to anti-group-C racists who of course happen to know language B and will get the subtle reference!" then you may very well be imagining things. Especially when you're talking about two-syllable nonsense country names in a fantasy setting; there are only so many possible two-syllable words to go around.