I think some of it comes down to the fact some fan favourite characters were given pathetic deaths, some were forgotten about, some regions like the border princes, Estallia and Tillia were given like 3 sentences which were killed by skaven and Malakith being the true phoenix king but wasn't because he didn't cheat like the others did
 
I think some of it comes down to the fact some fan favourite characters were given pathetic deaths, some were forgotten about, some regions like the border princes, Estallia and Tillia were given like 3 sentences which were killed by skaven and Malakith being the true phoenix king but wasn't because he didn't cheat like the others did
All these people infiltrating and buying out entertainment media franchises seem to possess a collective hard-on for killing off fan favorites and letting the the bad guy win. It's like they want to prove Matt Ward wasn't the worst.

Methinks they don't see the difference between "chaos" and "evil." I.e., how the former can include the latter, but the later can't include the former without immediately destroying itself.
 
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I only dislike the fact that in other media some evil guys have a ridiculous amount of plot armor even for things like logistic and personal.
Here at last when you add super edge and evil guys they Will murder each other, take each other shinnies, plan and be wary of other evil plans, be a obstacle if another is about to win more than them and etc.
Oh. And here the good guys have gods and magic too. Which is always good.
And some of the evil guys things here comes with lots of down sides too. Orks are stupid and need to fight, daemons like I said are self destructive, dark elfs and rats do backstabbing, lots of it, with time they have to plan being the only diference in my mind.
I don't know enough about chaos dwarf but I can't see the combination of lot of grudges with chaos being good and even less adding 'acceptable' work with chaos self destructive actions. I mean we have see dwarfs when they are truly, Complete Pissed off will destroy masterpieces works of their enemies (like that handmaiden), so I can see evil dwarfs having grudges like that with one another far worse than normal dwarfs.

Anyway my post is already too long. I just really glad that the good guys can help one another like we did, talk their problems out. Or just ignore one another for the many, many, many beings/things needing to be murder extra hard to be sure they stay dead.
Edit: my auto corruption had changed m elf for evil. Weird .
edit2: grammar. sorry about that.
 
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I'm going with it just being different mystical traditions than elsewhere in the world. Dunno if that's fully canon, but then there almost isn't any anyhow.

The only thing we really know about canon Cathayan magic is the following due to how little GW focused on that region:

Cathayan Magic
Magic has a long history among the humans of Cathay. In their tradition, Dark Magic and High Magic (known as yin and yang, respectively) are both held as sacred energies. Sometimes Cathayans use jet to craft fine pendants, bowls, rings or other trinkets that serve as protective amulets against all forms of hostile magic, excepting for those two and, for some reason, Ogre Gut Magic.[10g]

The strongest school of magic appears to be Astromancy - Dragon Emperor Xen Huong had a coven of astromancers already circa -2750 IC, and they were so powerful that some credit them with the summoning of the warpstonemeteor that crashed in the Ogre homelands and created the Great Maw.[10a][16d][17a] Celestial Magic is still important in the Empire of the Celestial Dragon, as the Tower of Ashshair kept watch for signs and portents of woe and threats from distant lands, and when it was attacked by Sayl the Faithless around 2509, his vanguard forces were crushed under a comet brought down by magical means.[18b]

Another magical feat of this great empire was the overturning and sinking of the Dark Elf Black Ark Talon of Agony in 860 with a gigantic magical tidal wave off the coast of Cathay.[4b]

Some, if not all, Cathayan wizards are known as Shugengan, and are said to have Dragon blood in their veins. They are able to hurl blasts of white fire and blizzards of murderous ice-shards against their foes.[18b]

Clan Eshin also learnt from Cathayan sorcerers and certain groups in Nippon, blending what they already knew of the warp with the techniques used in Cathay to develop their own lore, one that serves to enhance their Clan's power and mystique - the Lore of Stealth. These spells are designed to augment the stealth, speed, and strength of the Clan's attack forces, and none are quite sure whether Clan Eshin Skaven's legendary skills have ever been completely mundane. Clan Eshin guards the secrets of this art to ensure that none of the rival Clans learn the answer. For this reason, Eshin Sorcerers are mysterious, rare, and keep to themselves; they are well aware that the Grey Seers brook no competition from other Skaven spellcasters.[20g][20j]

Tzeentch's crew apparently had a foothold in Cathay via a cult that worshipped him as Chi-an. They were rivals with a group of vampires called the Jade blooded.

Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos, a book from Forge World's fantasy line, quite surprisingly contains a battle scene where the forces of Cathay are involved. A chaos sorcerer dupes a Beastman army into attacking the Tower of Ashshair, a Cathayan watchtower outpost at the edge of the Ogre Kingdomswhich it uses to scry on the Old World. Its defenders included fancy bronze cannon that shoot harpoons, "crow-men", stone "temple dogs", elite warriors with back-banners and "thousand-folded" swords, and "Dragon-blooded Shugengan" who wield elemental magics. In other words, your usual collection of oriental cliches, mostly Japanese. And sadly, it's likely the closest thing we'll get to an official Cathay army list.

But then, things get interesting when the Tower's garrison started to get overwhelmed by the Beastmen's numbers. The Tower turns the tide by dropping a frikking' Comet of Casandora into the horde, then starts sending "strange creatures of living stone" that can swim through the ground, bronze golems, terra-cotta soldiers and minotaur-suplexing "living statues of onyx" to beat the shit out of the survivors. So at least we know that Cathay isn't to be messed with in the Warhammer world.

Also the name of the native spellcasters
Shugengan seem to be derived from the shugenja, the 7th century practitioners of the Japanese religion of Shugendō. They were sometimes known as yamabushi too.

We know even less about Nippon magic just that they worshipped a common deity with Cathay the Orange Simca, whose monks exist in both places and wear orange robes and spend most of their time in contemplation which gave them special powers. Vimto is the martial version of Simcism.[2b]

The stone statues known as Temple Dogs can be found in both places guarding temple entrances. They resemble nothing so much as a cross between a giant pekinese and a lion. In times of war, the power of the temple gods is channeled into these statues to animate them. It is a great honour to mount this divine animal, indicating that the rider has found great favour with the gods.[4a]

Some Nipponese worship Lord Tsien-Tsin, known in the Old World as Tzeentch.[9b]
 
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I'm aware of the wiki pages. You don't need to repost the entire section, my dude. And I've mentioned my issues in-thread with certain parts of Cathay being blatant Japanese things, when Nippon is literally right there next to it. Don't expect the wiki page on it to be wholly accurate or correct in general. Or 1d4.
 
I'm aware of the wiki pages. You don't need to repost the entire section, my dude. And I've mentioned my issues in-thread with certain parts of Cathay being blatant Japanese things, when Nippon is literally right there next to it. Don't expect the wiki page on it to be wholly accurate or correct in general. Or 1d4.

Sorry, just trying to be helpful by consolidating the info. To be fair to GW it makes sense their would be some overlap between the two cultures given China did influence Japan irl for a long while.
 
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No worries. Just be aware that I'm fully willing to ignore the flimsy amount of stuff that GW made in certain cases. Like I understand that they wanted to make a neat connection with High/Dark and Yin/Yang, but literally everything else we've seen throughout all other sources tells us that High Magic is blatantly beyond the human mind, while Dark Magic is bad for the human body, soul, and mind in the extreme. The only human even able to perceive High Magic properly, Volans, of whom even Teclis was surprised and impressed by [for a human, but still ] could not even dare to try and wield High Magic and he knew it very, very well. The first Supreme Patriarch, personal student of Teclis, could only bear to see it, but to grasp it would drive him insane and break him and eventually kill him. So...yeah. Yin and Yang are not simply good/bad, they are meant to be complementary forces and not just opposition. The relationship between High Magic and Dark Magic is pure opposition only, there is absolutely nothing complementary about it, or any proper sort of cosmic duality.

Maybe, just maybe, depending on how one interprets the dragon-blooded sorcerers of Cathay, perhaps they are not quite fully human anymore, and thus have different options. But even then I find it dubious.

The 'thousand-folded sword' crap is obviously just straight up a reference to a Japanese Katana.

You'll note that I have Genevieve using a proper jian as a sword, and not some blatant katana rip-off.

Also, fucking...the crow-men are absolutely just built off of a tengu, which is annoying as well. What with Tengu being a japanese yokai. If they wanted bestial animal-headed guardian creatures they could have gone with Ox-Head and Horse-Head. If they wanted a flying statue creature, they could have used Pixiu.

It's annoying, and it's just a depressing lack of effort. If they wanted Cathay to have a crap ton of Japanese-related/derived stuff, they might as well have just not had Nippon exist at all. There are plenty of Chinese-specific beasts/weapons/cultural things that they could have used, but they went for katanas and back-banners.
 
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An English company operating in the early 2000s being a band of culturally ignorant dipshits?

Perish the thought.
On the bright side, if CA ever does tackle Cathay (which is, still, a big if) they've certainly shown due diligence already towards Chinese cultural touchstones. I think they'd do a better job of it then a bunch of Japanese myths and stereotypes.
 
Well, they did a good job with Total War: Three Kingdoms, so I would hope that they'd know a bit better. But only time will tell for certain. Though, yes, I doubt that we'll be getting Cathay at all. If I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
 
No worries. Just be aware that I'm fully willing to ignore the flimsy amount of stuff that GW made in certain cases. Like I understand that they wanted to make a neat connection with High/Dark and Yin/Yang, but literally everything else we've seen throughout all other sources tells us that High Magic is blatantly beyond the human mind, while Dark Magic is bad for the human body, soul, and mind in the extreme. Yin and Yang are not simply good/bad, they are meant to be complementary forces and not just opposition. The relationship between High Magic and Dark Magic is pure opposition only, there is absolutely nothing complementary about it, or any proper sort of cosmic duality.

The 'thousand-folded sword' crap is obviously just straight up a reference to a Japanese Katana.

You'll note that I have Genevieve using a proper jian as a sword, and not some blatant katana rip-off.

Also, fucking...the crow-men are absolutely just built off of a tengu, which is annoying as well. What with Tengu being a japanese yokai. If they wanted bestial animal-headed guardian creatures they could have gone with Ox-Head and Horse-Head. If they wanted a flying statue creature, they could have used Pixiu.

It's annoying, and it's just a depressing lack of effort. If they wanted Cathay to have a crap ton of Japanese-related/derived stuff, they might as well have just not had Nippon exist at all. There are plenty of Chinese-specific beasts/weapons/cultural things that they could have used, but they went for katanas and back-banners.
No but real honest shit for a second, this, absolutely this. Every time I try and look up info and lore for human nations anywhere outside of the Old World, I feel this virulent mix of disappointment and annoyance on the level of a mosquito trapped in a tent with me.
 
An English company operating in the early 2000s being a band of culturally ignorant dipshits?

Perish the thought.

You would think they could have done better. I mean I get the internet was still in its infancy so it was harder to look up info back when they wrote it but for fuck's sake they still had options for info. I mean how hard is it to check out books at your local library/university?
 
Well, they did a good job with Total War: Three Kingdoms, so I would hope that they'd know a bit better. But only time will tell for certain. Though, yes, I doubt that we'll be getting Cathay at all. If I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Anyone get the feeling that the New Warhammer fantasy books are just going to steal everything they possibly can from the CA games, but then fuck up are the things they fill in between?
 
Here's a simple one that I also have a problem with. Instead of the major Cathayan magical tradition being pulled from the ancient Japanese Shugendō, why not utilize Daoism (Taoism), due to the fact that there is a significant amount of magic/sorcery within its mythology? If you don't want it to be straight up called Daoism or Taoism, i.e. Daoist Sorcerer or Taoist Magician, you could create the name of their magical tradition with aid of Huangdi, the legendary mythological Yellow Emperor of which it was claimed Daoism originated. So you could call their magical tradition Huangden or Huangdengan or something rather than Shugengan. Then you can have the Japanese magicals called Shugengan!

Hey, look at that, I made a magical tradition based in foundational Chinese mythology rather than a somewhat obscure 7th Century Japanese tradition. It took me, what, a minute?

Ugh.

EDIT:

To be fair to GW it makes sense their would be some overlap between the two cultures given China did influence Japan irl for a long while.

There is overlap, yes, but not to the point that it went in reverse like GW suggests. If they were having Cathay influencing Nippon more, the katanas would be replaced with jian and daos, the back-banners with Yuan Dynasty-esque brigandine coats, tengu/crow-men would be replaced with Pixiu which is a cool winged lion thing, and so on.

Instead, the tinier country of which there is barely anything known has managed to be a cultural juggernaut despite being incredibly distrustful of outsiders who rarely ever permit foreigners to enter their country? To the point of outright overwhelming Cathayan cultural weaponry, language, mythology, and technology?

It is one thing for countries to influence one another due to being near to one another, through trade, etc. It is another to have one somehow completely dominate the culture of the other to the point that you might as well call it New Nippon. A small example of this is the Ki-rin, the Japanese spelling of the creature, with Qilin being the Chinese, both transformed into English here, obviously. That's just a simple thing, but it's a notable one and indicative of greater issues.
 
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I mean, it could have work
On the bright side, if CA ever does tackle Cathay (which is, still, a big if) they've certainly shown due diligence already towards Chinese cultural touchstones. I think they'd do a better job of it then a bunch of Japanese myths and stereotypes.

Depending on how much of a free hand they have in fluff, they could probably spin something like cathy having absorbed nippion or something if they want to be able to use japans inspired stuff.
 
On the bright side, if CA ever does tackle Cathay (which is, still, a big if) they've certainly shown due diligence already towards Chinese cultural touchstones. I think they'd do a better job of it then a bunch of Japanese myths and stereotypes.
Total War's a big hit in China. They'd be insane to just treat it like the 80's when Asia's got that Eastern Mystique and Japan is the hottest country around.

An English company operating in the early 2000s being a band of culturally ignorant dipshits?

Perish the thought.
I assume most of this stuff was written in the 80's when Japan and Ninja were the coolest stuff in the world (this was the era of the Ninja Craze and stuff like American Ninja and Shogun) and China was still a relative mystery besides some contact with Hong Kong. The extent of popular knowledge was Kung Fu, Communism, and Kung Pao Chicken. Sure that applies heavily to America, but considering the domination American culture has, I think it's fair to assume a heavy bleed over to the UK considering the UK's focus on Asia seems to be based heavily on India.
 
Is there buddhisism in Cathay? Buddha is already considered a god ( or god-like). I'd imagine he'd be OP in WHF smiting down demons all willy nilly :cool:

Ironically, we know more about Nippon's religions than Cathay, and it is that there is a 'common god' amongst the 'Orientals' called the Orange Simca. Which is literally just a reference to Richard Halliwell's car at the time. [A GW Employee] Which, sure, a lot of stuff about Warhammer is tongue-in-cheek stuff, funny references, and general goofiness. Green soccer hooligans and so on and so forth. But it's all the information there is.

There is Tzeentch, though, and he is known as Chi'an Chi in Cathay and Lord Tsien-Tsin in Nippon. Some worship him, but then that could be said all over the world, really.

An overarching Cathayan religion? Such as, say....Daoism or Buddhism? Zero reference at all.
 
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...This make me think all the money they lost with the Chinese that they could get from them buying their products, probably would way Hyped to have something like the war of the three kingdoms with 3 magical armies (given the number of games and novels) or mixing that with warhammer ones. Or just enjoying some over the top shenanigans that probably everyone does with strategic games. So they would need mods to get this then :(

Hell even a gacha game if they were brave enough to do this.
 
...This make me think all the money they lost with the Chinese that they could get from them buying their products, probably would way Hyped to have something like the war of the three kingdoms with 3 magical armies (given the number of games and novels) or mixing that with warhammer ones. Or just enjoying some over the top shenanigans that probably everyone does with strategic games. So they would need mods to get this then :(

Hell even a gacha game if they were brave enough to do this.
A fantasy Dynasty Warriors would be fun.
Adding the winds of magic or a bonus level with a "literal dragon" emperor flying around eating skaven and goblins would be nice.
 
A fantasy Dynasty Warriors would be fun.
Adding the winds of magic or a bonus level with a "literal dragon" emperor flying around eating skaven and goblins would be nice.
Lu Bu vs skulltaker. Or just Lu Bu fighting warhammer evil races would be wonderful to see^^.

Hell if the idea is chinese/japanese they could just allow a Sun Wukong version.
 
No but real honest shit for a second, this, absolutely this. Every time I try and look up info and lore for human nations anywhere outside of the Old World, I feel this virulent mix of disappointment and annoyance on the level of a mosquito trapped in a tent with me.
You would think they could have done better. I mean I get the internet was still in its infancy so it was harder to look up info back when they wrote it but for fuck's sake they still had options for info. I mean how hard is it to check out books at your local library/university?
Not really defending GW here, but you do have to consider the fact that GW never had any real intention on having the likes of Cathay, Nippon, Araby, and Ind be playable factions in the tabletop game. If they did have such intentions, I'm sure they would have at least tried to have these factions be a bit less stereotypical and shoddily researched, though whether or not they would have succeeded is another thing enitrely.

Alas, Warhammer was always centered on Fantasy Europe from the get go, so the non Old World human nations were always destined to be background dressing, and nothing more.
 
While while we're on the topic of weird stuff about Warhammer lore, did you know that kislev is the name of a Hebrew month? I didn't.
 
While while we're on the topic of weird stuff about Warhammer lore, did you know that kislev is the name of a Hebrew month? I didn't.

Yeah Kislev is the month where Hanukkah happens according to the Jewish lunar calendar. Because lunar cycles fluctuate year to year this means the Holiday can fall immediately before or after the solstice which marks the beginning of winter thus making Kislev a month that straddles fall and winter. Depending on who you ask the month's name is either from the Hebrew word for hope, the constellation Orion, or some old Akkadian word.
 
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Not really defending GW here, but you do have to consider the fact that GW never had any real intention on having the likes of Cathay, Nippon, Araby, and Ind be playable factions in the tabletop game. If they did have such intentions, I'm sure they would have at least tried to have these factions be a bit less stereotypical and shoddily researched, though whether or not they would have succeeded is another thing enitrely.

Alas, Warhammer was always centered on Fantasy Europe from the get go, so the non Old World human nations were always destined to be background dressing, and nothing more.
You can never believe GW when they say "we'll never do that" because they always do if they think they can make a buck off of it.
 
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