I meant distance and importance wise, with the Alaska analogy.
Being a huge forest with its own Treemen and Branchwraith(s) is great, but it's quite separated from Athel Loren proper and is almost only counted as part of the Wood Elf Realms (their version of provinces/dukedoms/etc.) due to the population and longterm elf presence there. And the fact that Laurelorn is far more Athel Loren-y than normal forests.
But when Orion and crew are talking about big Wood Elf matters, Laurelorn doesn't really ever get brought up. Like. Ever.
Naraiel doesn't even have a pipeline or ANWR equivalent to bring her into greater WE politics.
The biggest thing she's done is send most of her forces to go fight The Omen and that went well for her but she doesn't have much else to contribute to the WE than bodies right now.
All this talk of Wood Elves and territory is getting me wondering that with their most recent victory and death of another major Beastmen leader they will have a form of baby boom/celebration Great Hunt like they did when Slugtongue was killed.
I meant distance and importance wise, with the Alaska analogy.
Being a huge forest with its own Treemen and Branchwraith is great, but it's quite separated from Athel Loren proper and is almost only counted as part of the Wood Elf Realms (their version of provinces/dukedoms/etc.) due to the population and longterm elf presence there. And the fact that is far more Athel Loren-y than normal forests.
But when Orion and crew are talking about big Wood Elf matters, Laurelorn doesn't really ever get brought up. Like. Ever.
Naraiel doesn't even have a pipeline or ANWR equivalent to bring her into greater WE politics.
The biggest thing she's done is send most of her forces to go fight The Omen and that went well for her but she doesn't have much else to contribute to the WE than bodies right now.
Dutch's Kislevite Culture Corner: Ungol and Gospodar Law
First some background info for the people who know nothing about Kislev.
Kislev is a country forged from various warring invaders who finally settled alongside each other. The bulk of the Nation's population is made up of Ungols, the Gospodars, the Norse and the last remnants of the Roppsmen. Tribes such as the Dolgans make their home in Kislev's northern areas and many of the people living in the south share many traits with people living in the Empire, as it is common for people from this area to interact and mingle the bloodline.
In fact, Kislev can be called two nations in one. On the one hand, there are the more civilised peoples of the south and the cities, where the lands are relatively fertile. And in the north, particularly north of the Lynsk, there are wild, nomadic tribes.
In the time of Sigmar, the harsh lands north-east of the Urskoy were populated by the Ungol tribes, who also dominated the smaller tribes of the Ropsmenn who lived in what is now Troll Country. the Ungols were a scattered people consisting of nomadic, horse-riding tribesmen. Sigmar's influence did not stretch this far north and the Ungols didn't answer Sigmar's call of a confederation of tribes.
Around the year 1500 IC there was a large westward migration from the eastern steppes, and of particular importance was the arrival of the powerful and wealthy Gospodars. Torn with strife, the Empire was in no position to contest these lands, and the superior arms and tactics of the Gospodars drove the Ungols to the west and north, who in turn absorbed the Ropsmenn completely. Over the following century, the power of the Gospodars grew, and the city of Kislev was founded. The settlement of Praag grew in size as the Gospodars used the Lynsk to launch incursions into Ungol territory, eventually forcing the Ungols to accept Gospodar rule. By this time, the former Ungol city of Erengrad had grown into a busy port ruled by the new Kislevites, and from here, the Kislevites were able to sail the Sea of Claws, trading and fighting with the Norse and on occasion the Empire, as well as keeping the Ungols in check.
Alright. Now unto Ungol law. (Just going to copy this since it's a mouthful.)
The fundamental concept of Ungol law is that a group is responsible for the actions of all its members. If a member of a group commits a crime, any member of the group may be punished for that crime. The smallest such group is the family, defined as all the blood descendants of a living woman and the husbands of any married women in that bloodline. Men change families when they get married. Families split into groups defined by blood descendants of a matriarch's daughters when she dies. Ungol law has nothing to say about actions taken within a family, and the elders discipline as they see fit. In most cases, however, the harsh environment ensures families pull together. It is normal for a family to travel together or live in the same place. And while individual members may leave, it is unheard of for a family to be split between two stanitsas. Above the families come the clans and tribes, as well as the stanitsas. Both clans and tribes were originally defined by blood links, but over the centuries, they have simply become traditional groupings. It is unusual, but not unheard of, for a family to change clan or tribe, though an individual woman must belong to the clan and tribe chosen by her family. It is not uncommon for men, on marriage, to change both clan and tribe as well as family. Stanitsas are places of residence, typically villages, and often host a number of families and even different clans or tribes.
If a crime is committed against an individual, the penalty can be levied on any individual who shares membership with the criminal in a group to which the victim does not belong. Thus, if both criminal and victim are in the same family, there is no possible group to take the penalty. If they are in different families within the same clan, a member of the criminal's family must be punished. If they are in different clans, anyone in the same clan may be taken.
The law states that the actual criminal is the preferred target of punishment, and the judge grants the criminal's group a period of time to produce the malefactor for punishment. This deadline is normally at least a week, occasionally as long as a year; the length depends in large part on how important the criminal's group is. Gospodars are, for the purposes of Ungol law, considered to be one family. That means any crime committed by a Gospodar against an Ungol may be avenged on any other Gospodar. Kislevites are considered to be a single group, and all foreigners are treated as a single family. This generalisation has led to an innocent Tilean merchant being executed for a murder committed by a mercenary from Stirland, particularly because judges have been known to give foreigners only until sunset to find the true criminal.
Ungol Courts
Ungol law courts consist of a single judge who listens to the evidence, asks questions as he wishes, and then makes a decision. There is no appeal. The only rule is that the judge must not belong to the same group as either the victim or the accused. Thus, a judge between two families must be from a third family, which means that a judge between Gospodar and Ungol must be a foreigner, though the Ungol tribes have agreed the Tzarina in person can also serve as judge in such a case. When judging between a Kislevite and a foreigner, there is no neutral group, so any judge can serve. As a result, foreigners rarely win their cases. Although the formal requirements are simple, most judges are chosen based on their experience and reputation for fairness. The judge decides what evidence to hear, and the verdict is at his sole discretion, as is the penalty. For the most part, this process works well enough and provides something close to justice quickly enough to allow life to continue on the unforgiving steppes.
Ungol Laws
Ungol law is not written down anywhere authoritative. Rather, it is remembered by the judges and the wise women and applied according to common sense. It is unwise to argue the details of the definition of a crime in an Ungol court. The laws contain the normal kinds of prohibitions against theft and violence but also have a number of provisions based on life on the steppes. Refusing hospitality is a serious offence, only a little below murder. Some allowance is made for the circumstances, but turning someone away from your camp is always a criminal matter. The basic rule is that more permanent settlements must offer hospitality and that, if both groups are equally nomadic, the responsibility falls on the larger. Abusing hospitality is an even more serious offence than murder, and some judges argue that it is the most serious offence possible. It is one of the few cases in which a judge might order innocent members of the criminal's group to be punished as well. However, the most important mark of gravity is that the Ungol put a lot of effort into finding and punishing those who commit this crime, in some cases spending years on the hunt. For example, one Tilean follower of Ranald was finally slain by a half dozen travel-worn Ungol warriors on the streets of Sartosa.
Ungol Punishments
The Ungol do not use fines as punishments, though they may require compensation to be paid to victims. Similarly, they do not use imprisonment as a punishment, but criminals may be held while they await trial. Suspects are normally held by their own family, rather than by the accusers, in order to ensure the right person suffers if the decision goes against them. As a result, Ungol punishments are almost entirely corporal. Flogging and branding are popular, and the number of lashes or the size of the brand depends on the nature of the crime. Crippling is only employed when a whole group is held to bear some responsibility for a crime, as a crippled member becomes a burden on the group. Indeed, it is not uncommon for a crippled criminal to be killed by his family, an action outside Ungol law. However, minor mutilations, which do not affect a person's ability to survive, are used in much the same way as brands. Finally, capital punishment is common. The following specific punishments are popular in Ungol areas, but most judges have their own favourites.
Arrows
The criminal is tied to a post, and archers shoot arrows at him. The number of arrows, and the distance between the archer and the post, are determined by the judge. This punishment can be anything from a death penalty to a light slap on the wrist. In almost all cases, the victim is allowed to nominate an archer. The Ballad of Isukin and Noga includes a famous scene in which Noga shoots twenty arrows at Isukin—who was convicted of betraying Noga—from five paces and misses every time. In the ballad, this act is the start of an alliance that overthrows a horde of Kurgan. Satirical versions in which Isukin kills Noga as soon as he is untied are almost more popular than the original ballad.
The Glove
A metal glove that opens like a clam shell is heated until it glows and then is closed on the criminal's hand. It is left closed for a number of heartbeats depending on the severity of the crime and then removed.
The Helm
A closed helmet is heated until it glows and then is forced onto the criminal's head. This punishment is a form of execution, and if the judge is feeling merciful, the helmet is riveted to the base of the skull with a long spike, causing near-instant death and sparing the criminal considerable pain.
Horse Running
The criminal is tied to a rope, which is tied to the saddle of a horse. The horse is then set into motion. Many variations of this punishment exist, allowing it to be tuned to the crime. The length of the horse's run can be controlled, as can its speed. Similarly, the length of the rope and the means by which it is fastened to the criminal make a difference. A rope tied around the waist allows the criminal to run as fast as he can. One tied around the wrists makes him more likely to fall, while one tied around the ankles guarantees that he will be dragged. Further, the horse might be ridden or simply driven into a gallop out onto the oblast. Leaving the horse to its own devices means the final level of the penalty is in the hands of the Gods, something appealing to some judges.
Spirits' Mercy
The criminal is driven out into the oblast, branded on his face with a mark indicating that it is a legal duty to deny him hospitality. This act is basically a death sentence, and in most cases, the criminal is driven out naked and with no possessions, which guarantees a swift death. However, in some cases, the criminal is allowed full equipment, particularly if his family is very popular or if the judge feels he was justified in his actions. It is still essentially a death sentence, but a few people manage to survive alone on the steppes. Suren the Dead is a legendary example; certainly, his exploits in support of his family and against the raiders from the north have been exaggerated in the telling.
Gospodar law is more like that of the Empire and has been strongly influenced by it. Some Kislevites feel there has been too much influence and long for a return to the good old days of proper Gospodar justice. The biggest difference from Ungol law is that the responsibility for a crime rests solely with the criminal; Gospodar courts cannot flog someone just because his cousin is a thief. Nearly as significant is the fact that Gospodar law is written and defined by the wording of the Tzarina's proclamations. The judges must make decisions in accordance with this written law and, thus, must study it before they can be entrusted with a court. Although the written law exists, it is simple compared to the laws of the Empire and leaves a lot of room for judicial interpretation.
Feud
Gospodar law permits feuds between families, possibly under the influence of Ungol law. The law allows an individual, or an individual's family, to take revenge for an injury suffered. The person receiving the injury need not be the guilty party. It is, of course, also permissible to take revenge for the injury inflicted in revenge. The legal mechanism to bring feuds under control is the law that it is not permissible to take revenge for a reasonable injury inflicted as punishment for a crime recognised in a court of law. If the punishment is unreasonable, however, this rule does not apply. Taking revenge for a reasonable punishment is, however, regarded more seriously than inflicting the original injury.
Gospodar Courts
Gospodar courts are run by professional or semi-professional appointees of the Tzarina. In remote areas, the ataman of the settlement almost invariably holds this position, but in the cities, the magistrates are increasingly becoming a professional group separate from the nobility. Most courts have a single judge, though those set up to judge boyars or higher members of the nobility have three judges who must agree unanimously in order to convict. Kislev and Erengrad each have a single permanent court for the nobility, while Praag has two, a reminder of the unrest among the northern boyars. The judge decides who speaks, what other evidence can be admitted, and whether the accused is guilty. There is no appeal, but a judge who issues a decision that contradicts the law can
be tried for treason. Even if the judge is found to have broken the law, the judgement against the person convicted still stands. The penalty is determined by the victim or the victim's family. The law sets out a list of permissible penalties, but they are not distinguished by offence. A victim can choose to have a verbal insult punished by slowly torturing the criminal to death, and that penalty is enforced. The main check on this is the possibility of a feud, as discussed above. Of course, when the victim is powerful and the criminal is not, it's not really an issue; boyars often inflict draconian penalties on peasants.
Outside the settlements, law is enforced by "oblast justices." These judges are as much police as judge, and they bear many resemblances to the bounty hunters of the Empire. Unlike city judges, they are also permitted to impose penalties, though some take pride in dragging criminals before the victims for punishment. If a settlement is without a judge, which is rare, or has a complaint against the ataman, which is more common, its members may appeal to the oblast justices.
The need for oblast justices is assessed on the apparent level of crime in a region—meaning, if things appear to be calm, the residents are reluctant to stir things up too much by undertaking detailed investigations. On the other hand, if there is an obvious problem, many try to scare it back into the shadows, for tales of close links between oblast justices and local crime syndicates are common. The chekist spend some of their time looking for such corruption.
Gospodar Laws
Gospodar laws naturally have the standard sorts of laws against theft and violence. But the laws also contain a number that are more specific to the land of Kislev. It is illegal for adult males to not have, maintain, and practise with appropriate weapons. For most of the country, this law is irrelevant, as there are far more pressing reasons to be ready to fight. However, in the cities, there are some who want to get around the law, and the judges and chekist worry about the
possibility of armed vagabonds rioting when they realize they can't be stopped. Before the Storm of Chaos, the pressure to change the law was strong, but the reminder of just how much of a threat the raiders from the north are has undermined this position for now. It is important to note women are permitted
to wield weapons; it is merely not a legal obligation for them.
Gospodar law does not contain any requirements to offer hospitality, but it does contain laws punishing abuse of hospitality. These laws state a host should be treated as a member of the nobility by his guests. As a result, very few people in the cities ask for hospitality from people they are not already friendly with. Out on the oblast, customs of hospitality are very strong, and abuse, while rare, is punished with the full force of the law.
Gospodar Punishments
As noted earlier, under Gospodar law, any legal punishment may be meted out for any crime at the victim's discretion under the feud provision. Punishments tend to be harsh, but very few victims go against the social sense of what is reasonable, and those who do are often ostracised, even if they are not targeted by a feud. Of course, nobles feel that harsh punishments are entirely appropriate when a peasant assaults a noble, and they do not care if peasants want to ostracise them. Fines, of any amount, are a permitted punishment. Half of the fine goes to the court—and thus to the Tzarina—while half is kept by the victim. Fines of a bit more than twice the cost of any damage are universally recognised as reasonable, and victims of theft who restrict themselves to such punishments can get a reputation for justice and mercy even as they vigorously pursue anyone who wrongs them. It is common for victims to require a fine in addition to any other punishment.
Flogging, up to one hundred strokes with implements ranging from a light cane to heavy leather straps loaded with weights and spikes, is another popular penalty. The most popular form of legal discussion in taverns is of the appropriate level of flogging for hypothetical offences.
Branding is not permitted under Gospodar law. It used to be, but it was abolished after a series of petty thieves were branded "rapist" or "cultist of the north."
Mutilation is generally only applied in cases of wounding, where it is common for the same injury to be inflicted on the criminal. Nobles can often get away with imposing injuries that correspond to damage done to their property. An urchin who broke the windows of a noble's house might be blinded, for example.
The death penalty is also available but rarely used by the common folk for anything short of rape or murder. Nobles use it more loosely and commonly impose it for the death of valued animals.
I meant distance and importance wise, with the Alaska analogy.
Being a huge forest with its own Treemen and Branchwraith is great, but it's quite separated from Athel Loren proper and is almost only counted as part of the Wood Elf Realms (their version of provinces/dukedoms/etc.) due to the population and longterm elf presence there. And the fact that Laurelorn is far more Athel Loren-y than normal forests.
But when Orion and crew are talking about big Wood Elf matters, Laurelorn doesn't really ever get brought up. Like. Ever.
Naraiel doesn't even have a pipeline or ANWR equivalent to bring her into greater WE politics.
The biggest thing she's done is send most of her forces to go fight The Omen and that went well for her but she doesn't have much else to contribute to the WE than bodies right now.
Ariel barely even acknowledges that Naraiel exists.
Most of the Wood Elves are absolutely disgusted with the Lady of Laurelorn for inviting in humans and ogres and then performing ancient and nominally not approved blood magic-y shit with a human.
She burned so much capital asking for help from you. She's sitting at about a Wood Elf Approval Rating of about 2/10 all across the board everywhere save for Laurelorn.
And that's even with the reclamation of the Prince of Unicorn's Skull, her own father's skull, and the head of the progenitor of all Centigor and one of the greatest foes the WE as a people ever fought.
By the way, are the lands of the wood elves actually as big as they are on a map or is their forest more like one big tardis? They way travel through their woods is often described gives of the impression that its the second, but I dont remember ever seeing it explicitly said.
Ariel barely even acknowledges that Naraiel exists.
Most of the Wood Elves are absolutely disgusted with the Lady of Laurelorn for inviting in humans and ogres and then performing ancient and nominally not approved blood magic-y shit with a human.
She burned so much capital asking for help from you. She's sitting at about a Wood Elf Approval Rating of about 2/10 all across the board everywhere save for Laurelorn.
And that's even with the reclamation of the Prince of Unicorn's Skull, her own father's skull, and the head of the progenitor of all Centigor and one of the greatest foes the WE as a people ever fought.
Ariel barely even acknowledges that Naraiel exists.
Most of the Wood Elves are absolutely disgusted with the Lady of Laurelorn for inviting in humans and ogres and then performing ancient and nominally not approved blood magic-y shit with a human.
She burned so much capital asking for help from you. She's sitting at about a Wood Elf Approval Rating of about 2/10 all across the board everywhere save for Laurelorn.
And that's even with the reclamation of the Prince of Unicorn's Skull, her own father's skull, and the head of the progenitor of all Centigor and one of the greatest foes the WE as a people ever fought.
...So, if my sleep-deprived brain isn't wrong and Tzarina is reforming the law system; what she is essentially doing is trying to standardise the laws between the Ungols, who for all intent and purpose uses a mixture of Hammurabi's 'tit-for-tat' punishment and Middle Eastern tribal laws with no written laws, and the Gospodars, who uses a basic justice and written law system with all the pitfalls that entails from it....
Oh yeah, this only have the potential to go as well as a meeting between a Bloodthrister and a Changer of Ways.
By the way, are the lands of the wood elves actually as big as they are on a map or is their forest more like one big tardis? They way travel through their woods is often described gives of the impression that its the second, but I dont remember ever seeing it explicitly said.
Ariel barely even acknowledges that Naraiel exists.
Most of the Wood Elves are absolutely disgusted with the Lady of Laurelorn for inviting in humans and ogres and then performing ancient and nominally not approved blood magic-y shit with a human.
She burned so much capital asking for help from you. She's sitting at about a Wood Elf Approval Rating of about 2/10 all across the board everywhere save for Laurelorn.
And that's even with the reclamation of the Prince of Unicorn's Skull, her own father's skull, and the head of the progenitor of all Centigor and one of the greatest foes the WE as a people ever fought.
So...you're saying that the Laurelorn Elves are becoming ripe for a split with the other Wood Elves.
This could be...exploitable. If nothing else, we could offer any political exiles room in our forest, as long as they are willing to follow Empire law. Of course, that would almost inherently mean that they have cut ties with the Fae, so maybe we could get our own technology!Elves. Steel Elves? Steam Elves?
Ariel barely even acknowledges that Naraiel exists.
Most of the Wood Elves are absolutely disgusted with the Lady of Laurelorn for inviting in humans and ogres and then performing ancient and nominally not approved blood magic-y shit with a human.
She burned so much capital asking for help from you. She's sitting at about a Wood Elf Approval Rating of about 2/10 all across the board everywhere save for Laurelorn.
And that's even with the reclamation of the Prince of Unicorn's Skull, her own father's skull, and the head of the progenitor of all Centigor and one of the greatest foes the WE as a people ever fought.
So...you're saying that the Laurelorn Elves are becoming ripe for a split with the other Wood Elves.
This could be...exploitable. If nothing else, we could offer any political exiles room in our forest, as long as they are willing to follow Empire law. Of course, that would almost inherently mean that they have cut ties with the Fae, so maybe we could get our own technology!Elves. Steel Elves? Steam Elves?
I thought the Fae were the dryads, treemen, and other nature spirits that inhabit Wood Elf forests? Naraiel wouldn't be splitting with the Fae - she'd be bringing a population of them along on her secession from the Athel Loren government.
I don't think Ostland has any forests that aren't a) being cut down for farms and towns, b) the sites of logging operations, or c) in proximity to the Eternity Stair. As 'interesting' as it would be to get Aurelion's people and Naraiel's people talking, I don't think the chance of mutual cooperation would be very high.
Well...yeah. With all the beastmen in the province skedaddling because of the death of Ghorros, Stephan using direct armed forces to keep idiots from trying to get inside the forest, and other things, Laurelorn is doing quite well. For a variety of reasons, and in a variety of ways. And if none of the other Wood Elf Realms wish to interact with hers that is fine too. She's got plenty of things to work on.
Ariel barely even acknowledges that Naraiel exists.
Most of the Wood Elves are absolutely disgusted with the Lady of Laurelorn for inviting in humans and ogres and then performing ancient and nominally not approved blood magic-y shit with a human.
She burned so much capital asking for help from you. She's sitting at about a Wood Elf Approval Rating of about 2/10 all across the board everywhere save for Laurelorn.
And that's even with the reclamation of the Prince of Unicorn's Skull, her own father's skull, and the head of the progenitor of all Centigor and one of the greatest foes the WE as a people ever fought.
Well...yeah. With all the beastmen in the province skedaddling because of the death of Ghorros, Stephan using direct armed forces to keep idiots from trying to get inside the forest, and other things, Laurelorn is doing quite well. For a variety of reasons, and in a variety of ways. And if none of the other Wood Elf Realms wish to interact with hers that is fine too. She's got plenty of things to work on.
How much room is there in the Hohenzollern Forest that isn't currently occupied by settlements, resource exploitation, or the Stair?
I don't think Hangwind was thinking of a full migration out of Laurelorn, but more like internal tensions cutting Laurelorn off from Athel Loren, on purpose this time, and setting up a second network of northern Wood Elf colonies - starting with an unused portion of our own forest. (If a suitable portion exists. The area around the Eternity Stair would be the most obvious place, but inter-elf tensions would likely rule it out.)
The hope would be for a Laurelorn-centered network of forests across the Empire and Kislev, which closely coexists and collaborates with its human neighbors (and helps put down anyone who turns to Chaos) to the same extent that Ostermark and Karak Kadrin have for the last however many turns.
Last I checked there is tons of room in general since the forest takes up a whole half the province and it would take a long ass time to get from the edges where we are currently logging to the inner parts of it. I'm talking years and years.
