For those of you who are opposed to pushes on the Bajorans for fear of increasing tensions, you realize that pushing the Dawiar to affiliate status is going to raise tensions far more? We were specifically warned that removing them from the Cardassian sphere of influence would ratchet tensions up quite a bit. It seems a bit counterintuitive to hold off on the friendly species that might be conquered if we don't help them for fear of possibly raising tensions while pressing for the belligerent one that we know has strong diplomatic ties to the Cardassians.
 
I don't particularly mind the idea of pushing the Bajorans, but you realize that the Dawiar are surrounded on every side except one by us and our affiliates now? The expectation that the Cardassians can keep them is not grounded in stellar geographical reality.
 
I'm not saying go full swarm, but the dramatically increased ability to put warp cores into space (rather than boots on the ground) afforded by actually building midsize cruisers rather than nothing but the hulking giant explorers and science ships cannot be underestimated. The Federation's gonna grow, we already have three very militaristic empires on our borders that all need protecting, and on top of that a need for effective police action of Federation Space.

Explorers are grand. They're big, beautiful and the most amazingly enduring ships our people can build, but they are vastly outsized hammers to most problems.

Even the Lone Ranger Doctrine doesn't say "only build explorers". It merely assumes that explorers will be the core of the fleet and at the frontline of combat, with other ships being being used to support and fill in the gaps for all those problems for which Explorers aren't needed. I mean, we've got a lot of non-Explorers in build right now!

For those of you who are opposed to pushes on the Bajorans for fear of increasing tensions, you realize that pushing the Dawiar to affiliate status is going to raise tensions far more? We were specifically warned that removing them from the Cardassian sphere of influence would ratchet tensions up quite a bit. It seems a bit counterintuitive to hold off on the friendly species that might be conquered if we don't help them for fear of possibly raising tensions while pressing for the belligerent one that we know has strong diplomatic ties to the Cardassians.

On the other hand, look at the map. The Dawiar are about to be nearly surrounded by Federation and Federation Affiliates. The Cardassians won't like losing them, but they can read a map too. The Bajorans are much more nestled in Cardassian territory.

Also, maybe we should stop depending so heavily on canon foreknowledge with this "might be conquered" stuff. We have no actual evidence of that in game. Perhaps the Bajorans will cut a deal and become willing Cardassians affiliates
 
I don't particularly mind the idea of pushing the Bajorans, but you realize that the Dawiar are surrounded on every side except one by us and our affiliates now? The expectation that the Cardassians can keep them is not grounded in stellar geographical reality.

It would be difficult certainly, but with the Lecarre also nearby and a Cardassian client state, not impossible. If nothing else, to the Cardassians it represents a potential second front we'd have to deal with.

And besides, the biggest part is that they'd be going from Cardassian affiliate to Federation one. If we start stealing their client states out from under them, then they have to start feeling insecure in all their other relations. It'd be like if East Germany or Hungary suddenly overthrew the communist government and tried to rejoin the west. Sure their military contribution might not be huge, but it represents a huge blow to the political stability of the Soviet bloc.

Basically, pushing the Bajorans or the Dawiar is going to lead to increased tensions, not just the Bajorans. And in fact I'd argue the Dawiar would be a bigger slap in the face to the Cardassians considering they were as much a Cardassian proxy as the Sydraxians at one point, while our intelligence suggests Bajor is much more unaligned. The only reason Bajor is more provocative is because of its proximity to the Cardassian territory, but we're already expanding in that direction anyways. The empty space in between us is shrinking rapidly, and we're going to have a static border soon, barring war.

I'm fine with pushing either, since we have the Cardassians on the back foot for the moment, and we should exploit that for all it's worth.
 
[X][COUNCIL] Plan DS
[X][COUNCIL] Plan DS
[X][COUNCIL] Plan DS
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Ds
[X][COUNCIL] Plan DS
so yea, based on feedback, i switched the bajorans for the yrillians on the diplomatic push side on account of probable cardasian aggression. thought i would let you guys know since you voted for my plan
 
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Counselors and Projects

I really don't like the push for influencing the Bajorans. They are a Cardassian client/associate right next to core Cardassian territory and the entire reason people want to diplomance them is because of OTL metaknowledge.

There are so many ways trying to grab them as affiliates is likely to go bad and we run a serious risk of war if we try.
 
Sorry to scatter the vote even more, but...

[X][COUNCIL] Plan Odds and Ends
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 25pp Starbase/Weapons
Request Refit Program for Miranda class 35pp/FREE
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp, Yrillians
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp, Bajorans
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp, Dawiar
Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp, Qloath
Add a Member World Coordination Office under Shipyard Ops, 30pp (allow cooperation with member worlds on ship-building priorities as part of Shipyard Ops turn phase)
Establish Betazoid Counsellors in Starfleet vessels, starting with Explorer Corps, 8 turns, 40pp (Increased Retention nets +.25 Officer/Crew/Technician in Explorer Corps)
NEW Reorganise a Starfleet Command from a Rear Admiral position to a Vice Admiral position. Pick one: 20pp for Starfleet Intelligence
NEW Request Mining Colony at Lapycorias VII, 8pp (4 turns, gain +25 br/year)
Request Mining Colony at Gamma Canidae V, 8pp (4 turns, gain +20 br / year)

This plan gets us the councellors, a new tech team, the Miranda refit to slow down expenses at berths for a few years, the NWCO, getting rid of that officer we don't like by changing the rank involved and choosing someone else, and two mining colonies to increase our resources a bit. I was tempted to reorganize a bit and swap the colonies for the chance at increased resources, but this is a good mix.
 
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I have a minor question, why is cloaking technology listed in the forbiden technology section of the resaerch mega post? The ban on the UFP developing cloaks is from the 3011 Treaty of Algeron, which was completely pre-empted by the Biophage Crisis and the changes to Federation/Romulan diplomatic interactions.

I mean as the group which likely has the best sensors we don't want to proliferate anything which degrades our advantage, but I was just wondering why it was there.
 
I prefer that the Bajorans stay in plan DS.

Oneiros has all ready said that diplomacy with the Syndraxians is out of our hands with their opinion so low, and what makes you think the SBZ will be there forever if we form it? Once things are hopefully peacefully resolved with them, we can just abolish it, but until then having it means that events with them happen there instead of within our space.

Firstly, I missed the bit about all diplomacy being out of our hands. Thank you for telling me.

Second, I don't think it will necessarily be there forever. That is an awfully long time, after all. If I were to put it into words, what I suppose I do feel is that it will be there longer than it's really worth. Let's say we make the Border Zone. This action, in and of itself, will not stop the attacks. You say it will move the encounters out of "our space", but functionally, what does that mean? There won't be civilians nearby so much, perhaps - but from what I can recall the only time the Sydraxians got past the forces we already have in place was when we deliberately pulled those forces away earlier. Beyond that I cannot think of a single instance of the Sydraxians getting past to do much of anything, really. So the Border Zone, as I see it, removes a risk that has never been realized, in exchange costs us more ships, bases, and so forth to maintain, and in the end does nothing at all to resolve or reduce the number of attacks.

Another factor I only fully realized after that post is this: the Sydraxians seem too small to require a Border Zone.

Allow me to elaborate. Let's take a look at who we have Border Zones with at current:

Romulan Star Empire. Fought a very large-scale war in the backstory, warships are a very credible threat to our own, relations have only experienced thawing very recently and both sides are very happy to keep each other at arm's length for the time being.

Cardassian Union. Are in a state of constant smirkishes against our own forces, or at least prior to the Kadak-Tor sitiuation they were and I see no reason for that to have changed. Warships are on a general rough parity with our own vessels and we've recently discovered that their fleet in total is currently larger and more powerful than our own, are at a minimum heavily suspected for souring relationships between the Federation and various other species in between them and us multiple times in the past, diplomatic relationships only opened incredibly recently due to an ongoing crisis.

And then we have the proposed Border Zone. Sydraxian Hierarchy. Looking at the most recent map I can find they appear to have control of a grand total of two planets, and even assuming the map to be incomplete they're smaller than the Federation by several factors. Have been defeated by our standard garrison forces multiple times in the past. Less a threat, more a nuisance.

Comparing the two we already have in place to the proposed one, the Sydraxian Border Zone looks an awful lot like overkill. At least, that's how it seems to me.
 
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They're neither of those yet, the Cardassians had recently started courting them when we found them, and our intel hasn't noted any changes in that since then.
They are right next to Cardassian space, are a moderate distance from our current borders and are being actively courted by the Cardassians. Regardless of the official diplomatic state, the Cardassians are going to regard them as very much their territory.
 
I have a minor question, why is cloaking technology listed in the forbiden technology section of the resaerch mega post? The ban on the UFP developing cloaks is from the 3011 Treaty of Algeron, which was completely pre-empted by the Biophage Crisis and the changes to Federation/Romulan diplomatic interactions.

I mean as the group which likely has the best sensors we don't want to proliferate anything which degrades our advantage, but I was just wondering why it was there.
Treaty of Algeron merely formalised the informal policy of the Council.

Ix-nay on the Oak-clay.
 
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Odds and Ends

Sorry, this plan has what I really want: V/Adm for Intelligence.

I'd Honestly prefer Mirandas to the Constellations (We'll likely be using Mirandas a lot longer, I'd like to Decom the Constellations as soon as possible) btu no one is perfect.
 

Updated map. A few issues:
  • Should the Cardassian terrirory still fade out like that, or should i just draw a line where it's currently faded out as much as where it meets Bajoran territory?
  • Does anyone want a version in lower resolution but without the minor colonies?
  • I assume there isn't much need for showing the supply lines in the normal quarterly maps, so I hid that layer for now.
  • Shoud I try to show listening posts? We only have info for our RBZ listening posts and that one Cardassian one.
  • Remove zero coordiante (i. e. 1 next to -1), yes or no?
 
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Let's say we make the Border Zone. This action, in and of itself, will not stop the attacks. You say it will move the encounters out of "our space", but functionally, what does that mean? There won't be civilians nearby so much, perhaps - but from what I can recall the only time the Sydraxians got past the forces we already have in place was when we deliberately pulled those forces away earlier. Beyond that I cannot think of a single instance of the Sydraxians getting past to do much of anything, really. So the Border Zone, as I see it, removes a nebulous risk that has never been realized, in exchange costs us more ships, bases, and so forth to maintain, and in the end does nothing at all to resolve or reduce the number of attacks.

It has a game-mechanical effect that Sydraxian attacks can only occur in the SBZ and will not occur in a home sector where they can target our shipping. You can debate the relative worth of this if you want, but it has a specific mechanical effect in the game that will prevent further attacks (on our shipping; might occur on the ships guarding the SBZ).
 
What's the fine line that seperates sensor jammers/other electronic countermeasures and a full fledged cloaking device?
Being Invisible, ECM doesn't allow you to hide that a vessel is actually there somewhere in open space, cloaks do.

We don't want cloaks anyway, we are likely to have more (higher ship Science) and better (Sensor research) sensors than others. Spreading anything that reduces long range sensor effectiveness is against our best interests. Especially as cloaks are ideal for asymetric warfare, again something that we don't want more people to be better at (as we are one of the big powers).
 
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It has a game-mechanical effect that Sydraxian attacks can only occur in the SBZ and will not occur in a home sector where they can target our shipping. You can debate the relative worth of this if you want, but it has a specific mechanical effect in the game that will prevent further attacks (on our shipping; might occur on the ships guarding the SBZ).

I consider that to fall under the bit about "won't be civilians nearby so much". Still, perhaps "nebulous" was the wrong word. I'll just delete that word, then.
 
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Updated map. A few issues:
  • Should the Cardassian terrirory still fade out like that, or should i just draw a line where it's currently faded out as much as where it meets Bajoran territory?
  • Does anyone want a version in lower resolution but without the minor colonies?
  • I assume there isn't much need for showing the supply lines in the normal quarterly maps, so I hid that layer for now.
  • Shoud I try to show listening posts? We only have info for our RBZ listening posts and that one Cardassian one.
  • Remove zero, yes or no?
One map works for me.
Listening posts, yes please!
Zero - I like it personally.
Also, Risa is now an advanced affiliate - our borders should stretch that direction
 
They are right next to Cardassian space, are a moderate distance from our current borders and are being actively courted by the Cardassians. Regardless of the official diplomatic state, the Cardassians are going to regard them as very much their territory.

In case you haven't noticed, the Cardassians regard everything as their territory. They were pushing in as far as the Amarkia sector before we made a border zone and courted the Indorians and Apiata. Then they harassed the Indorians and Apiata, and tried to drive them off mineral sites in the Apinae Sector.

The Cardassians claiming a system they've occupied as their own territory is reasonable, and should be respected. The Cardassians claiming random systems far away from any Cardassian installations is kinda dubious. The Cardassians claiming territory currently occupied by other species, and not giving that species much of a choice in the matter is not something I look on as particularly worth respecting.

Edit: As a final note, Bajor is all of one square closer to the Cardassian border than Rethelia or Indoria. Does that one square really make such a difference that pushing the Indorians to full membership is fine, while getting Bajor to affiliate status is not? The Cardassian and Federation borders are going to collide eventually, at the current pace of exploration probably within a year or two. Holding off on Bajor because it's too close doesn't resolve the problem.
 
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Two things on the starbases.

First, we don't get to declare what system they're put in. I think you're making good choices, but that's not the point. We only get to specify the sector, not the system, and it's misleading to people voting for your plan to assume we can do that.

Second, here's my concern about a Vega starbase. It will protect Vega, but will it protect shipping? After being repulsed form Vega, it seems most likely the Sydraxians will content themselves with blowing up cargo ships as they get the opportunity as a lot easier.
I see you already changed your vote while I was working on the map, but to clear up my position on this: We weren't explicitly told we could choose the system, but I would be very surprised if we really can't, and even then they'd probably still be placed in the same systems because there isn't really anywhere else that makes as much sense. The main value of a Starbase at Vega would be the long range sensors, which should make it much more difficult to get across the border before we can send ships to intercept them. Based on what starbases managed during the recent crisis a starbase at Vega should allow us to detect ships leaving Sydraxian space relatively reliably before they get to the anomaly they are using to sneak in.
 
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