But there is no real protection against the people who minmax it taking out one of the techs that everyone was thinking of for the project on the grounds it minmaxes better that way.
Sure there is; votes.

Just look at how the Roles/Profiles votes are handled; the GMs know most people aren't interested in that section of Tac Ops so for a change to pass it needs to get the support of 50% of the total number of voters for that post.

This ensures the minmaxers must persuade a majority of people interested enough to vote in EAS to include their proposed minmaxing. Sure this system could be 'subverted' by people just latching onto what "Player X" says is a good idea but bandwagoning and supporting specific high investment players has always been a problem with any vaguely complex quest.
 
Because if we order "Advanced Computer Technology," our subordinates will throw their effort at a mix of different advanced computing projects.
And? We can add in / remove technologies, and iirc, computer tech included the '+n breakthrough' techs. And narratively, hardening our computers/communication networks versus subversion (Harmony/major power spying) would also work. Or not?
 
There aren't that many people who understood the tech system actually playing here and one of them is actively against the new system; was it even worthwhile to include a fiddly layer, especially a fiddly override everyone else lair? Doubly so because the relationship between tech and ship design in the quest, and people who could do both, was highly incestuous, resulting in one opaque system driving another opaque system.
I mean... substitute "relationship between shipbuilding and garrisons" Or "relationship between garrisons and roles" and the point is the same. An even smaller pool- this is not just confined to SDB, thanks.

(And I thoroughly appreciate what BV does because I cannot grok deployment optimisation at all. Even though I know he'd often like feedback, I'm as guilty of just voting for (the only) plan on trust as any.)

Rule by technocrats is a recurring quest aspect here. And one worthy of discussion.
Just, it'd be nice to have less charged terms used in that discussion, if we are to do so.
 
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I think that the new research system will produce far easier to understand votes about the general direction with the project votes, the fact that only tech that matches a project means this focus is set for multiple years and the fact that all non doctrine projects have progress and we only pick 12 that go faster will make rushing ahead happen less and i think this is a good thing as the other powers have the same rules in the background for how fast they get tech so ships can stay longer before becoming obsolete.

If project run for example for 8 years each on average we would have a vote for a new project about every second year with only tech removal/additions in the year in between.
I expect most additions/removals to change years to happen in projects intended to produce parts for new ships as for most other projects it does not have a major impact if we get one a year sooner and another a year later.
 
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3 BTs would be wasted.
Edit: Or we could buy 2-3 BTs in the Snakepit to finish the project off.

Even if we can buy breakthroughs directed towards specific techs (which I'm not at all sure is what buying breakthroughs in snakepit means; I read that as saying we can buy an increase to our base number of breakthroughs/year), I don't think that this would actually work as intended. Even if we lined up all the techs so none of them need breakthroughs in 2327 that doesn't necessarily mean the project actually ends in 2326; after all, the techs won't actually be complete yet at that point. Instead, we might just have 5 breakthroughs locked into a project that doesn't need any, but isn't actually complete yet.

I think you're trying way too hard to optimize here. [T3] 2320s Warp Nacelles is currently ETC 2328 and would fit the project, as a one-year advancement would help it fit with our 2327 refit schedule. It doesn't optimally fit the available BTs, but it's a simple adjustment that fits and shouldn't cost more than a single 5pp.

If we're looking at adding Nacelles, I think we should probably hold off until next EAS. It won't make any difference in when it finishes, but it will let us have a look at how the ship design system is changing before deciding if getting the nacelles a year earlier is worth the 5pp.

On the other hand, the best (revealed) tech that I think even somewhat fits the theme of "next generation heavy ships" is [T4] 2330s Multispectral Sensors [DATE 2337], and that's really "the generation after the next generation of heavy ships" at this stage. Given that it would also give us T4 Labs, I'd put it in if we're permitted (despite the breakthrough timing not quite working out right regardless of whether or not we cut flight decks), but I expect it to be disallowed.

The T4 explorer platform, maybe? We weren't really planning on another run of explorers on a larger platform until the Ambassadors start showing their age, but it might behoove us to develop one under the new ship design system (especially if there is significant stat creep, and the opposition is being transferred over to the new system).

Either way, as with nacelles, there isn't actually any advantage (as far as I can tell) to adding either tech this year rather than next year, when we will hopefully have a better sense of the new ship design rules.
 
Guys, I think that before we try to suggest any improvements to the revamped research system, we should give the new system 2-3 turns to see how it plays and if a wider audience is engaged and enjoys it. Not to say that potenial issues haven't been raised, but I think we maybe are jumping the gun by calling for another overhall without testing out our current model.
 
Just look at how the Roles/Profiles votes are handled; the GMs know most people aren't interested in that section of Tac Ops so for a change to pass it needs to get the support of 50% of the total number of voters for that post.

Something which isn't done here that we know, so bringing it up is pointless...and which is a patch on a bad system rather than a good one. Most complex quests are not, in fact, complex in such a way that people can't generate or understand the planning involved; that is explicitly the problem with fiddly minmaxing here, so comparing it to something like Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism doesn't work when people over there don't still need a spreadsheet to track research.
 
so i been looking around for it and have not seen it so far?
what about the tricorder stuff?

can not find it personal teck or anywhere else really. do we just get them? or are they not a thing anymore?
 
can not find it personal teck or anywhere else really. do we just get them? or are they not a thing anymore?
They are part of these techs:
[T3] 2320s Specialized Teams [COMPLETE] [+1C to away team events, Parts: Dedicated Away Teams (CE)]
[T3] 2320s Primitive Integrated Equipment [COMPLETE] [+1C to unplanned personal-level combat rolls, +1P intelligence teams, +1SP to distress call events, reduce crew losses +1 stage on away team or boarding, +0.1 all crew incomes]
[T3] 2320s Security Operations [COMPLETE] [+1C to planned personal-level combat rolls, +1S intelligence teams, reroll attempts at forced boarding or breaching including intelligence teams, Parts: Espionage Operations Team]
[T4] 2330s Hazard Team Concept [DATE 2328] [+1S to away team events, reduce damage to recovered ships +1 stage, Parts: Dedicated Away Teams (CE)]
 
so i been looking around for it and have not seen it so far?
what about the tricorder stuff?

can not find it personal teck or anywhere else really. do we just get them? or are they not a thing anymore?

There are a ton of things that have been combined or removed. In the previous system Basic Modern Tricorder would have given us +1S to away team events. In the new system this has been folded into the upcoming [T4] 2330s Hazard Team Concept [DATE 2328].

If you really, really want to, you can compare the old (humongous) Research Megapost to the new (much smaller) Research Post Evolved. I haven't done that myself, partly from my familiarity with the old system but mainly because there's just too much stuff in the old system.
 
I think that eliminating the micromanagement is actually a pretty important goal here.
Kind of. It has been completely eliminated from Projects, while allowing for drastically reduced complexity (compared to old system) in Project management.

Best of both worlds.

This does not contradict what I said. Most projects will have a small number of "core" technologies, like "Defensive Systems" will probably have a hull and shield and then some other stuff like damage control or something that helps with evasion like secondary phasers. Most of the time people will select a project for what they think the core techs of it will be. But there is no real protection against the people who minmax it taking out one of the techs that everyone was thinking of for the project on the grounds it minmaxes better that way.
If you are choosing Projects based on core technologies, then you are minmaxing.

The research tree appears well build. There are excellent techs everywhere. It would be hard for a project to not catch a bunch.

If you see a diplomacy tech that gives more affiliate research rolls, think that that is a great bonus, and try to figure out a Project with it? You want that bonus because you want better diplomacy. So ask for a "Diplomacy" project. The end.

It will even likely reveal other hidden, high value diplomacy techs.

You are assuming we can finish our unfinished Doctrines and there aren't any hidden techs yet to be revealed.
If there are (unlikely) great! Doctrine techs are often game changes, we want them a lot!
 
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Omake - Grand Yard of Vaitauxeuax - Voikirium
Grand Yard of Vaitauxeuax

Innumerable tons of metal, water and glass. Vast, behemoth skeletons of ships moored to berths smithed of darkest steel, which shines like a mirror struck by brightest light, in intricate patterns, mathematically carved to perfection, to yield the most working space possible with the least effort, themselves extending from smaller, habitable stations. An anthive's worth of activity moves between and within each platform, taking exact measurement of the ships as they are molded into forms both foul and fair to the eyes of observers, whichever their species. Some are fully familiar shapes and crafts, clearly simply the contracted work for any of the states lacking the ability or desire to build their own such crafts such as the Hishmeri. Some are clearly Uaquuo ships, for their own purposes.

And some are unknown to the powers of the Alpha Quadrant, these ships-- for though assembled at the hands of the Uaquuo, they are not designed by the Grand Host, nor to their specifications-- instead they come from rimwards space, species unknown to the Alpha Quadrant and the Great Powers within. Warships, merchant vessels, scientific boats-- if there is payment, in either physical resources or technical knowledge gained, the Uaquuo will build it, at this Yard-- grand and nestled in their space. Many pains have been taken in ensuring its security, layers of protection which cannot be broken but by blood and ship and tears-- and much of them at that. The cost of taking the yard would be much too great for any power, short perhaps of the Federation and the other, similar powers-- and that butcher's bill, even for they, painful. Better to leave them be and reap the rewards in knowledge, even for the brutes, tyrants, and murderers which infest space like a cancer grown and left uncut.

Beyond filling the coffers of state with more wealth, the yard serves a secondary purpose-- many are the species that the Grand Host knows which the other states of the Alpha Quadrant do not, and vice versa. In the recreation facilities, amenable to both air and water breathers, many species mingle, trading ideas and knowledge indirectly-- hither a grand frog-man clad all in blue, thither a thing of fishlike scales, blood the color of cotton candy and a angler's lure upon their forehead-- or at least, such has been whispered of. They live together as well in harmony there, forced by the authorities who seek peace-- a few dozen dormitories there are, evenly split between aquatic and airbreathing species. Further, too, for those states extremely rimward, it acts as their window towards the Core, the Great Powers there and the intellectual developments there.

Whomever they serve, visitors to the station are on their best behavior-- the Uaquuo have no patience for the petty arguments of others, not in such a delicate place. Offenders of the law and disturbers of the peace are swiftly removed, perhaps even banned. Only the finest diplomats and ambassadors are sent, in hopes of ensuring favorable contracts with the shipbuilders and access to their facilities. Losing them would be...annoying.

Contacts with the powers far Rimward has allowed the Host to act as the door and bouncer alike for material contact between Rim and Core-- and they have grown wealthy and to some extent, influential off of it. Rare resources make their path through it in both directions, as does technical knowledge, and too sophont resources-- intellectual refugees from tyranny oft do make their way, as well, to the host, hearing of it from visitors to the Great Yard. It is a beacon, a lighthouse, drawing visitors both near and far to it, a gravitational pull inescapable to those seeking its treasures-- that meeting point between the north and the south.

There are rumors, as well, of a great ship under construction by one of those unknown powers-- those of the rim speak of a Commonwealth shaping, in secret, a vessel fit for vengeance on the harmony which menaces them; those of the Core speak of grand designs by a confederation seeking to show their unity and ambitions in the face of the other Great Powers. None knows the secrets of these rumors-- mayhaps it is all simply lies, the fevered dreams of those who see the alien and imagine that it must be wicked and secretive. Perhaps it is truth, in which case the Uaquuo are certainly making a tidy sum in resources or knowledge building. Whatever the case, the Grand Host confirms or denies nothing-- simply continues to grow wealthy off the back of such transactions.
--
@Leila Hann Does this fit what you wanted?

(Sorry it isn't longer, in the middle of finals so writing well and long is literally killing me)
 
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So, when we meet up with the Ferengi, will we have the option to encourage Quark-like members of their species in pursuit of affiliation?

Some of the Rules of Acquisition are actually not terrible when given a does of enlightened self-interest, and Quark saves the day on several occasions. He's noted to be very good with people by Ferengi standards, even if he's mediocre as a businessman by those same standards. One time, he actually out-logiced a Vulcan regarding preventing war.

If turned to better purposes than the economic equivalent of instant gratification, they could do great things, seeing as they have a very strong drive for success. Nog is a good example. He started out, if anything, even less trustworthy than his father, who had enough enlightened self-interest to be a reasonably reliable ally, but became an excellent Starfleet officer. We just have to get rid of their culture's disdain for pursuits besides business. A tall order, admittedly, but it can't possibly be worse than the Klingons' disdain for scientists and the like.

Besides, the constant put-downs of the Ferengi don't make much sense when the Federation doesn't give a shit about the Orions maintaining their capitalist system once the Syndicate and the whole slavery thing were pruned. It's not like they're that much worse than the Orions were. I can totally see the Mercantile Faction having a Ferengi Councilor.
 
So, when we meet up with the Ferengi, will we have the option to encourage Quark-like members of their species in pursuit of affiliation?

Some of the Rules of Acquisition are actually not terrible when given a does of enlightened self-interest, and Quark saves the day on several occasions. He's noted to be very good with people by Ferengi standards, even if he's mediocre as a businessman by those same standards. One time, he actually out-logiced a Vulcan regarding preventing war.

If turned to better purposes than the economic equivalent of instant gratification, they could do great things, seeing as they have a very strong drive for success. Nog is a good example. He started out, if anything, even less trustworthy than his father, who had enough enlightened self-interest to be a reasonably reliable ally, but became an excellent Starfleet officer. We just have to get rid of their culture's disdain for pursuits besides business. A tall order, admittedly, but it can't possibly be worse than the Klingons' disdain for scientists and the like.

Besides, the constant put-downs of the Ferengi don't make much sense when the Federation doesn't give a shit about the Orions maintaining their capitalist system once the Syndicate and the whole slavery thing were pruned. It's not like they're that much worse than the Orions were. I can totally see the Mercantile Faction having a Ferengi Councilor.
Pretty sure the Ferengi will be a major power, making us unable to affiliate them.
 
So, when we meet up with the Ferengi, will we have the option to encourage Quark-like members of their species in pursuit of affiliation?

Some of the Rules of Acquisition are actually not terrible when given a does of enlightened self-interest, and Quark saves the day on several occasions. He's noted to be very good with people by Ferengi standards, even if he's mediocre as a businessman by those same standards. One time, he actually out-logiced a Vulcan regarding preventing war.

If turned to better purposes than the economic equivalent of instant gratification, they could do great things, seeing as they have a very strong drive for success. Nog is a good example. He started out, if anything, even less trustworthy than his father, who had enough enlightened self-interest to be a reasonably reliable ally, but became an excellent Starfleet officer. We just have to get rid of their culture's disdain for pursuits besides business. A tall order, admittedly, but it can't possibly be worse than the Klingons' disdain for scientists and the like.

Besides, the constant put-downs of the Ferengi don't make much sense when the Federation doesn't give a shit about the Orions maintaining their capitalist system once the Syndicate and the whole slavery thing were pruned. It's not like they're that much worse than the Orions were. I can totally see the Mercantile Faction having a Ferengi Councilor.
Pretty sure the Ferengi will be a major power, making us unable to affiliate them.
Ferengi are a major power.
Major Powers
Ferengi - Very limited contact
 
Oh, that's a no-go then. In that case, may I suggest a new race? Mouse-people. Called Mickins. ;)

I should probably go to bed. That's probably going to sound dumb tomorrow.
 
One day I want one of those powerful energy beings as part of the Federation.

Massive and powerful enough to equal a polity (but not more then that), even if it's just one being (maybe it can split off parts of itself?).

Star Trek is choke full of these, and yet they are mere monsters of the week and then ignored.

Would be a good step after welcoming the Dreamers.

Also, I am really looking forward to seeing that living biosphere again.
 
A project for the Ambassador successor is something i like to start in the next few years as there is a long time between the start of research and the completion of the first wave. The research list [T4] 2330s 2200-3600kt Explorer [DATE 2335] [Parts: T4 2200-3600kt Explorer Platform] and 3600kt is the current limit of what fits into our 3Mt yards.
 
I'd like a project for original research, the science that you do just to find out new shit about how the universe works.

Can't for the life of me really think what techs would go in that project though.
 
A few interesting (maybe) facts about the new research tree:

By 2329 all revealed T3 technologies will be complete (outside of Foreign Analysis, but that category is weird).

We have only one unfinished T2 technology (revealed). It is the [T2] Klingon Analysis II [DATE 2330].

The highest tier technologies that are being researched are Quantum Torpedoes and Positronic Computing, which are T6 and would finish in 2353 and 2359 without help.

Interestingly, there are only three revealed T5 technologies. Two from Computing: 2340s Computing Installations, 2340s Data Networks (2349 both), and Rapid Prototyping (2344).

Edit: Also, the lowest tier technology category (outside of Doctrines and Foreign Analysis, which are weird)? Starbase Design. Consists of five T3 techs and nothing more.
 
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Edit: Also, the lowest tier technology category (outside of Doctrines and Foreign Analysis, which are weird)? Starbase Design. Consists of five T3 techs and nothing more.

We sort-of know about a T4 Starbase tech. We can only guess what it'll do. (Pers9nally I'd love a starbase project in the hopes that they'll get more limeleight, though obv. They don't get much screentime for good reasons.)
[T3] Flight Operations [DATE 2327] [Adds Flight Deck to T3+ Small Craft technologies, reveals and adds T4+ Wing Command Starbase techs to projects]
 
If we want to try and reveal technologies, we could always start a project on something wildly different from our current research. But what to suggest...?
 
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