What, they will bury him under diplomatic meetings? "Horizon attacking" or even "Horizon outright supporting the revolution" is not exactly tiny misjudgment, especially with Federation also double downing on him.
You know this reminds me of how we once joked we should make a "diplomacy engine" as complex as the combat engine.

"Our scheduling software is failing under their meeting requests, Captain! They're breaking through!"

"We have just been confirmed for trade conferences for the entirety of next week and a panel on social development on the 9th! Those overlap!"

"Damn it....."
 
What is this "border" that you think they're crossing? Does it even really exist? They're not parking a bunch of ships in Licori space. Specific ships go to specific Licori worlds for specific prearranged reasons, and when they don't have a reason to be there they aren't. Iron Wolf was posting some maps the other day that showed zones of controls as bubbles extending from various major worlds rather than as these contiguous blobs of color the mapmakers have given us. There's a lot of empty space out there that might be in the line we draw and labeled "Licori space" but that actually their ships don't go and are far away from any of their worlds.

Same as there is a Federation-Klingon border.

Though I also kinda agree with you... Trek isn't super consistent about how borders work. But I do get a strong impression that there is some kind of line that separates the UFP and the Klingon Empire and that warships at least are not welcome to come and go as they please.

fasquardon
 
Probably, like the real world, borders can have a lot of variants.

From the highly porous EU borders, to the strained Bolivia/Chile border, to the extremes of the Berlin Wall.
 
However, as I said, this was a conceit baked into the entire TF concept, that you could send an arbitrary number of ships from your pool to go diplomance.

There's no gotcha to be had that if you'd sent a 100 ship strong TF to go conduct diplomacy on the Ittick-ka, anything would happen other than us going 'welp.'

However, this is clearly something elements of the playerbase want fixed.

Ok, just, it's really impressive that the TF system can technically handle a 100 ship TF. The thing is, though, our limitations with Task Forces hasn't been not having enough ships to insta-win a specific tag. It's instead been not having enough ships to send a TF to all the possible tags on the list. Just like how we have a limit of 5 diplo-pushes, and can't stack all our diplopushes on one polity. If we ever had a crazy emergency event, like, say, needing to evacuate a planet, then we might have to pull together a 100 ship TF. But otherwise, we've been given the impression that TFs have diminishing returns on larger size except maybe keeping equilibrium with opposing TFs.
Other elements would like it to remain in place, just as strongly.

To hell with SOD anyway. When was that ever more than a tertiary concern at best?

Suspension of disbelief isn't a binary feature. It's a sliding scale. Most captain's logs are really immersive and feel very Trek, but most updates don't need to reach that level to be engaging.
 
Once that fleet crosses the border the Licori have absolutely no power to say no.
Arcadian empire borders two other major powers. Do you think they won't call for help if they'll feel threatened?

Licori know that 3 major powers want them in their sphere of influence. They know that neither we nor Romulans will like if HoH will use force near our borders.

I still don't understand why half of the player base assumes that Harmony will park their ships over major worlds and don't act like normal task forces act.

Also, I am not that intimidated by the size of Harmony task force. Sure, it is big and powerful. But if shit will hit the fan - we have sizeable force around > Garrisons, member fleets, allies and affiliates.
 
Arcadian empire borders two other major powers. Do you think they won't call for help if they'll feel threatened?

In the event of a Harmony-backed coup, in all likelihood Lugis and anyone in the chain of command that hasn't been subverted by the new Harmony-backed government will be rather too busy being dead to call for help, or cut off by Harmony science-support. This is especially the case if the Harmony can at will deploy significant amounts of force to back the new government within Licori borders under the guise of "peacekeeping forces" "invited by the Licori government to maintain order." And maybe the Romulans would intervene anyway, there, but they're still recovering from their war with the Breen; it'd need to be a Federation-led response...and it would be pretty difficult to muster the political will to engage in military action against a revolutionary, reformist Licori government, given the warmongering of the existing government and the atrocities the Arcadian Empire engages in against its own population daily.
 
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Arcadian empire borders two other major powers. Do you think they won't call for help if they'll feel threatened?

Licori know that 3 major powers want them in their sphere of influence. They know that neither we nor Romulans will like if HoH will use force near our borders.

The HoH has plenty of recent propaganda fodder to convince them that the Federation won't help and the Roms are basically toothless atm so...
 
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The HoH does not have decent propaganda that we will not help considering they did not help either.
Adhoc vote count started by Rhinohunter on Aug 4, 2018 at 10:54 AM, finished with 474 posts and 49 votes.
 
We can counter spin it as we wanted a guarantee they would not take advantage of the licori while we were away and they refused. After all imagine if such a huge war fleet came while all the federation ships were far away they could overthrow the current government and there would be nothing anyone could do about it. This war fleet just confirms that the HoH was dishonest in their desire to help and is just waiting for everyone to let down their guard to strike and overthrow the licori government. Out of all of the factions if I was a licori I would be paranoid of the HoH right now.
 
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Do you think they won't call for help if they'll feel threatened?

Well, I kinda feel like I am being told OOC that they won't call for help because obviously everyone IC can see that the QMs mean this Horizon taskforce to be perfectly peaceful.

The thing is, people IC knowing information known only to the QMs doesn't scan.

Also, I am not that intimidated by the size of Harmony task force. Sure, it is big and powerful. But if shit will hit the fan - we have sizeable force around > Garrisons, member fleets, allies and affiliates.

Well sure. We're a peer power.

The question is if we'll react in a realistic fashion.

I still don't understand why half of the player base assumes that Harmony will park their ships over major worlds and don't act like normal task forces act.

It's not that they will only do that. But once they are in the region, there's nothing to stop them going into orbit around a planet and "establishing fait acompli".

And frankly, a big enough "normal taskforce" behaving in "normal taskforce ways", just by its very size, stops being a tool of persuasion and becomes a tool of bullying, just like raising my voice while saying the same words changes their impact.

Any power behaving in "normal taskforce ways" with so much force that it makes the navy of a minor power unemployed should be looked askance.

fasquardon
 
The Horizon just admitted they had an involuntary sterilization campaign, and nobody else is screaming? o_O

What is this, 1900?

Leaving that aside, on a balance note I think weapons parts such as phasors and torpedos should have penalties to diplomacy, and perhaps high combat provides a bonus to or is used in place of diplomacy with regard to martial-type race such as the Gorn or Dawair.
 
I, misread.

The Horizon had an involuntary euthanasia campaign and nobody is screaming. It's pretty easy to add in all dissidents as criminals, too. What is this, 1984?

We're not screaming because we've known about it for quite a while. As with many things about the Harmony of Horizon it's very skeevy but we have no actual evidence it didn't work exactly like they said it did.
 
We're not screaming because we've known about it for quite a while. As with many things about the Harmony of Horizon it's very skeevy but we have no actual evidence it didn't work exactly like they said it did.
Are the minors not concerned that the Horizon which has been courting them has just admitted to a concerted program of euthanasia?

You know, my opinion is that the Task Force system should have a limited amount of events, with the practicalities of ships being constrained by that. Like, treat them as their own zone, similar to a sector.
 
Are the minors not concerned that the Horizon which has been courting them has just admitted to a concerted program of euthanasia?

It's almost certainly one of the things we used to attack them in the diplomatic war. In fact, galactic pressure is specifically noted as a being reason they stopped doing it! Like I said, we've known about this for a while. So rather than "just admitting it" it's more like they just apologized for and agreed to stop something that had already been widely criticized.

So, I mean, yes I get why you're alarmed hearing about it for the first time, but in fairness you're hearing about it in the context of, "We reconsidered this policy and now agree we were wrong to do it and will stop."
 
I believe there really should be diminishing returns to Task Force allocation. Sharply diminishing returns, not merely significant diminishing returns, especially with diplomatic tags, where it is difficult to justify more ships somehow helping, and not actually hindering.
It's almost certainly one of the things we used to attack them in the diplomatic war. In fact, galactic pressure is specifically noted as a being reason they stopped doing it! Like I said, we've known about this for a while. So rather than "just admitting it" it's more like they just apologized for and agreed to stop something that had already been widely criticized.

So, I mean, yes I get why you're alarmed hearing about it for the first time, but in fairness you're hearing about it in the context of, "We reconsidered this policy and now agree we were wrong to do it and will stop."
It's still incredibly alarming.
 
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Once that fleet crosses the border the Licori have absolutely no power to say no.

Yes, the HoH could be very helpful, let him keep power, all the shiny things you seem to expect (but let's face it, even UFP taskforces aren't that shiny - we have an agenda and we follow it), but the Licori won't be in control anymore. The HoH will.

So to "diplomacy" like this isn't really diplomacy as we commonly think it. It's a very potent passive-aggressive threat. Any agreements the Licori make will be agreements under duress...

It's perfect for the HoH to do, totally fitting with their character, but to have the Licori and the Federation Council simply accept this and to have the QMs say "no, this is fine, this is genuine friendliness" er, let's say I am not impressed at the mental disconnect here.

A madman could genuinely want to be my friend and hold a gun to my head. That doesn't make it OK that he's holding a gun to my head.

And things can quickly escalate when people don't feel they can use a polite "no".

fasquardon
Assuming the task force is split evenly, there will be around 10 ships flying around Licori doing things, with maybe the same number of corvettes in tenders - actually, hey, here lies an easy way to alleviate the worries - @Iron Wolf, have HoH tenders not fully load out with corvettes, they are not very useful in the diplomatic missions anyway. Even disregarding for a moment that with the concentration our Beyond will number around the same, should Licori be worried that we have garrison around them that we can send to enforce whatever we want to? I really don't see why for Lugis the threat of HoH task force starting shooting is all that much more then the threat of us sending two-thirds of our garrison to start shooting.
In the event of a Harmony-backed coup, in all likelihood Lugis and anyone in the chain of command that hasn't been subverted by the new Harmony-backed government will be rather too busy being dead to call for help, or cut off by Harmony science-support. This is especially the case if the Harmony can at will deploy significant amounts of force to back the new government within Licori borders under the guise of "peacekeeping forces" "invited by the Licori government to maintain order." And maybe the Romulans would intervene anyway, there, but they're still recovering from their war with the Breen; it'd need to be a Federation-led response...and it would be pretty difficult to muster the political will to engage in military action against a revolutionary, reformist Licori government, given the warmongering of the existing government and the atrocities the Arcadian Empire engages in against its own population daily.
The HoH has plenty of recent propaganda fodder to convince them that the Federation won't help and the Roms are basically toothless atm so...
See, now if we decided to drop the Licori, Lugis could think: "Well, I am not opposed to the alliance with the Horizon, but if I play too hard to get, there is a chance HoH will start to actually support the revolutionaries instead of me, and with the Federation pulling out, it doesn't look like there is a will or a way in it to help me. Welp, I'll not try for a better deal then".

But we didn't. So, why would Lugis think that a) Horizon, instead of their usual and accepted diplomacy, will try to ride the beast of revolution, which is inherently risky b) Do so when there's a lot of Starfleet ships flying around, all ready and able to find such subversive activities and expose them, majorly hitting all HoH diplomatic activities c) The Federation will not support him if situation does spiral out of control, now that they decided to stop doing diplomacy with someone else for him?
 
@Iron Wolf

I feel like you're not quite... seeing the issue people have. I'm going to try to explain.

I'm not sure why the ISC would go to war about activities near the Vermillions, since they would likely think, if anything, that was a strike force assembled for Harmony.

However, as I said, this was a conceit baked into the entire TF concept, that you could send an arbitrary number of ships from your pool to go diplomance.

There's no gotcha to be had that if you'd sent a 100 ship strong TF to go conduct diplomacy on the Ittick-ka, anything would happen other than us going 'welp.'

However, this is clearly something elements of the playerbase want fixed.
See, the thing is, most of us believe we're playing a simulationist game in which the consequences of an action are supposed to be at least plausibly correlated with the way we'd expect people to behave. From that perspective, if we sent 20 explorers and 20 of the relatively combat-heavy Rennies to Ittick-ka space, and the Ittick-ka react like they're being invaded, that is not a gotcha.

It's like, we know the Ittick-ka are isolationist and xenophobic, we know they expect alien powers to attack and betray them over and over. We know they have an ideological opposition to trusting us and wish they could just conquer the universe so that they could finally be safe. We know all this because you told us so.

And knowing all this, we can see how the Ittick-ka could tolerate one or two of our ships being in their capital system- but they'd watch those ships warily. We can see how they'd tolerate a scattering of our ships in and around their space- but again, they'd be watching for tricks, making sure their own ships were in a position to intervene in case of treachery. Because that would be in character.

And if we nonchalantly said "oh, we have forty more ships coming," it would be in character for the Ittick-ka to react with at best extreme suspicion that they were about to be attacked. The personality you have carefully built up for them aligns exactly with that prospect. If we did that and the Ittick-ka freaked out, it wouldn't be some kind of unfair "gotcha" built into the mechanical rules of the game.

...

It'd be the kind of foreseeable consequence you get in a D&D game if your party decides to attack the king in his throne room during the 'king gives you a quest' scene. You can DO it, you can maybe even get away with it, but it's going to derail things and shit's gonna get weird and rough for a while.

Now imagine a game where the DM says "no, if you rolled attack rolls on the king when he's sitting on the throne, all that would happen is that I'd say "welp" and the king and whatever bodyguards he has personally present would fight you. There would be no further consequences because there's nothing in the D&D rulebook that says there are any non-mechanical consequences for winning a fight."

That would seem... weirdly disorienting, from a player standpoint. Because if actions don't have the consequences that you would narratively expect... Well, how do you engage with the game as a narrative story? It becomes nothing but a tactical wargame at that point, and a lot of D&D players would stop playing if they thought it was only a tactical wargame.

...

The idea of diplomatic Starfleet task forces makes sense only because in Star Trek, Starfleet has spent a very long time establishing itself as trustworthy. Even then many powers do not fully trust it, and watch it closely for signs of treachery. Because their national security is at stake, and they act accordingly. Narratively, this makes perfect sense.

And narratively, it would be expected that while a small power is fine with one or two warships from a foreign empire visiting at a time, it might not be entirely fine and happy with the idea of 10 or 20 ships doing the same thing. If the small power behaved that way, it's almost as if it's the equivalent of one of those NPCs in video games that exists only to wave to you and say "welcome to Villagetown!" when you enter the town, and will never do anything but greet you repeatedly. Because there's no thought process or ability to react ot what you do, it's just a simplistic, zero-depth stimulus-response thing.

So far you guys have done a beautiful job with plot. The plotted stories and events have done more to keep us coming back to this game than anything else. That goes for you co-QMs, too, I bet- if Oneiros hadn't done such a great job writing dramatic events and captains' logs in which people (including non-Starfleet people) behaved in exciting, realistic, three-dimensional ways, we wouldn't be having this quest.

We love plot. We want plot. Game-mechanical actions have plot consequences, plot actions have game-mechanical consequences. The game mechanics are ultimately FOR supporting plot, insofar as this game is anything other than a big dry exercise of Rule the Waves in space. Which is admittedly part but only part of what it's about.

What I'm saying is, the movement of very large fleets has plot consequences, or should. The movement of small fleets would have much lesser consequences, for reasons that are obvious if one puts oneself in the shoes of a space polity's leaders and exercises a bit of empathy and understanding.

But just because you guys drafted a specific rule for task forces, and didn't specifically say that there would be mechanical consequences for sending an intimidatingly large task force to do something... That doesn't mean that you're somehow bound to behave as if there would be no consequences, instead of adjudicating the consequences in a manner that is at least quasi-realistic.
 
@Iron Wolf

I feel like you're not quite... seeing the issue people have. I'm going to try to explain.

See, the thing is, most of us believe we're playing a simulationist game in which the consequences of an action are supposed to be at least plausibly correlated with the way we'd expect people to behave. From that perspective, if we sent 20 explorers and 20 of the relatively combat-heavy Rennies to Ittick-ka space, and the Ittick-ka react like they're being invaded, that is not a gotcha.

It's like, we know the Ittick-ka are isolationist and xenophobic, we know they expect alien powers to attack and betray them over and over. We know they have an ideological opposition to trusting us and wish they could just conquer the universe so that they could finally be safe. We know all this because you told us so.

And knowing all this, we can see how the Ittick-ka could tolerate one or two of our ships being in their capital system- but they'd watch those ships warily. We can see how they'd tolerate a scattering of our ships in and around their space- but again, they'd be watching for tricks, making sure their own ships were in a position to intervene in case of treachery. Because that would be in character.

And if we nonchalantly said "oh, we have forty more ships coming," it would be in character for the Ittick-ka to react with at best extreme suspicion that they were about to be attacked. The personality you have carefully built up for them aligns exactly with that prospect. If we did that and the Ittick-ka freaked out, it wouldn't be some kind of unfair "gotcha" built into the mechanical rules of the game.

...

It'd be the kind of foreseeable consequence you get in a D&D game if your party decides to attack the king in his throne room during the 'king gives you a quest' scene. You can DO it, you can maybe even get away with it, but it's going to derail things and shit's gonna get weird and rough for a while.

Now imagine a game where the DM says "no, if you rolled attack rolls on the king when he's sitting on the throne, all that would happen is that I'd say "welp" and the king and whatever bodyguards he has personally present would fight you. There would be no further consequences because there's nothing in the D&D rulebook that says there are any non-mechanical consequences for winning a fight."

That would seem... weirdly disorienting, from a player standpoint. Because if actions don't have the consequences that you would narratively expect... Well, how do you engage with the game as a narrative story? It becomes nothing but a tactical wargame at that point, and a lot of D&D players would stop playing if they thought it was only a tactical wargame.

...

The idea of diplomatic Starfleet task forces makes sense only because in Star Trek, Starfleet has spent a very long time establishing itself as trustworthy. Even then many powers do not fully trust it, and watch it closely for signs of treachery. Because their national security is at stake, and they act accordingly. Narratively, this makes perfect sense.

And narratively, it would be expected that while a small power is fine with one or two warships from a foreign empire visiting at a time, it might not be entirely fine and happy with the idea of 10 or 20 ships doing the same thing. If the small power behaved that way, it's almost as if it's the equivalent of one of those NPCs in video games that exists only to wave to you and say "welcome to Villagetown!" when you enter the town, and will never do anything but greet you repeatedly. Because there's no thought process or ability to react ot what you do, it's just a simplistic, zero-depth stimulus-response thing.

So far you guys have done a beautiful job with plot. The plotted stories and events have done more to keep us coming back to this game than anything else. That goes for you co-QMs, too, I bet- if Oneiros hadn't done such a great job writing dramatic events and captains' logs in which people (including non-Starfleet people) behaved in exciting, realistic, three-dimensional ways, we wouldn't be having this quest.

We love plot. We want plot. Game-mechanical actions have plot consequences, plot actions have game-mechanical consequences. The game mechanics are ultimately FOR supporting plot, insofar as this game is anything other than a big dry exercise of Rule the Waves in space. Which is admittedly part but only part of what it's about.

What I'm saying is, the movement of very large fleets has plot consequences, or should. The movement of small fleets would have much lesser consequences, for reasons that are obvious if one puts oneself in the shoes of a space polity's leaders and exercises a bit of empathy and understanding.

But just because you guys drafted a specific rule for task forces, and didn't specifically say that there would be mechanical consequences for sending an intimidatingly large task force to do something... That doesn't mean that you're somehow bound to behave as if there would be no consequences, instead of adjudicating the consequences in a manner that is at least quasi-realistic.
...yes.

I feel like you fundamentally misunderstood what I meant by 'gotcha.' Let me contextualize. I was not referring to the players being mad if they sent 100 ships at the Ittick-Ka and we decided that would mean the Ittick-ka would shoot at them and the Federation Council would be very mad at you for doing that. I was responding to a comment about what if you, the players, had sent a similar-sized Federation force to handle say, the Ittick-ka. The implication was that the GMs would have said "that is actually a warfleet, and the Ittick-ka would shoot at you until you left." I interpreted that as a 'gotcha' question.

However, and I want you to put your face close to my avatar on this, as if that spacebird is staring into your eyes with a sort of beady sincerity -- if you had gathered 20 capitals, 30 cruisers, and 50 odd frigates and thrown it at the Ittick-ka with the intent of clearing all tags and adding relations, there would have been no consequence from the Ittick-ka. Maybe we would have decided the Gorn or Cardassians would have a negative reaction, but we were operating off of what I will call two conceits, one kind of old to this quest, one newer:
  1. That Starfleet can use it's armed vessels for diplomatic purposes, and no one bats an eye, and indeed this is how a lot of your diplomacy is done [think EC]
  2. That as long as a tag was open, unless we said otherwise, you could throw as many ships as you wanted at it, and the recipient of said Task Force would be chill with it.
Now this caused some issues on the GM side. We struggled to find a reason the Dawiar mission should have continued at all after the Hadabat failed. We struggled to make the Gorn task force suitably difficult. We struggled to balance Task Force Unity with a narrative that clearly had things right on the brink of war. However, we made the decision to keep things as open as possible in order to promote player agency, not to later screw you over with a huge Harmony fleet.

Indeed, I expected complaints about that many ships being unfair because it would be hard to match it, or that it would be affecting Harmony's response rate -- not that there was just too many dang ships to be realistic, because the logic went that Harmony benefits from conceit 1, sharing a similar hat to the Federation, and so can firmly exploit conciet 2.

However, I have heard, loud and clear, over the last two days, that conceit 2 is causing SoD problems, even if hypothetically it would benefit Starfleet. You may note I have consistently been using the past tense to describe how we view TF conceits. I just don't have an answer about what to do about that because we're still figuring out if/what we're going to do about that. And probably will be for a little while longer.
 
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