But for the specifics of this case, the bulk 200rp->40pp was offering a currency conversion option. So far pp has been vastly more valuable and malleable than rp, so the exchange rate was a little steep, but the option was there with reasonable intentions. Yes, as mentioned I wanted to clear up the glut of rp, but this was because it was just sitting there and making rp kinda meaningless to collect. Why even bother making an rp colony at that stage?

That really wasn't how the fluff text read to me. To me, the fluff text made it sound like this was a necessary thing to take and we'd be punished by the council if we didn't stump up the RP for it.

Forgo, as noted above, it is grossly unfair to expect voters to exercise fiscal responsibility in a voting system configured so as to set them up to fail to do so.

Even worse, voters are being asked to exercise fiscal responsibility when the choice is cake now or some poorly understood complex thing later.

May I just note that I think the Constitution-C actually sounds like a good idea to me? I know why we passed it up this year, but I think it merits consideration. Don't just think operations and statlines, think broad strategic picture.

Yes, in performance a one-megaton parasite tender cruiser like the Constitution-C has stats inferior to the Little Queenship, yes, but it's also cheaper and can be built in one-megaton berths. The Apiata and Caitians have to invest capital ship berth time to build tenders for their parasite warships, and it's a major deterrent for any other member states seeking to experiment with the technology. Some of the smaller members that could really benefit from cheap parasite frigates simply don't have the infrastructure to support even a handful of the big Apiata-style motherships for them all.

Well, for what you're talking about I can't help but feel that a Rennie would be a better base for the design.

Much as I like the idea of having a Connie-C, I suspect that if it ever comes it will be a cargo ship or an engineering ship.

They don't have any 1mt berths, though. They have 0.6 and 2. That's all. It's such a waste for them.

But the Federation as a whole has a massive excess of 1mt berths doesn't it? Possibly a later MWCO could see some of those berths building tenders for the Apiata.

fasquardon
 
We can sell the Apita a Rennie and/or Rennie-A, they only need to ask. There has to be at least one under construction that we can give them.

Edit: We do have one under construction, NCC-2636.

I agree with this line of thought. If a Connie - C is a viable idea then a Rennie - Tender would be even better, longer shelf life if nothing else.
 
100RP cost would have sense if they'd decide to, for example, convert at least 5 Connie-B that way and reduce production of more modern vessels spending BR\SR on fortifications against the Pact, than that would be like some kind of smart use of resources.

But doing that to get two for some fringe use? No, thanks. At least spending RP on the relief was an ideology driven decision.


BTW, do we have any plans to do a large scale mothball of any other vessels in a near future? We can use Priority changes during MWCD to actually guide one of our members into long term plan that includes procurement (and possible refit) of former Federation vessels.
 
BTW, do we have any plans to do a large scale mothball of any other vessels in a near future? We can use Priority changes during MWCD to actually guide one of our members into long term plan that includes procurement (and possible refit) of former Federation vessels.
Possibly the BDF Patroller-As and Patrol Cruiser-As, but the latter either a long time from now or when we get a substantially crew/resource cheaper P-specialist I'd guess. Patrollers are very likely to be easily sold off, they've been a very popular export design.
 
Possibly the BDF Patroller-As and Patrol Cruiser-As, but the latter either a long time from now or when we get a substantially crew/resource cheaper P-specialist I'd guess. Patrollers are very likely to be easily sold off, they've been a very popular export design.

I'm kind of tempted to just keep the Patroller-As, though. They're very crew cheap and we can put them on duty in the Core Four on Support Response duty.
 
I'm kind of tempted to just keep the Patroller-As, though. They're very crew cheap and we can put them on duty in the Core Four on Support Response duty.

Are we sure we want to early decommission the Patrol Cruiser A's? They do have a rather nice P score for TF usage. I also agree with keeping the Patroller-A's given the low crew cost and lingering Oberth magic in their build. More seriously I think some of our smaller members might do well with building a few of them to keep around in their systems.
 
Forgo, as noted above, it is grossly unfair to expect voters to exercise fiscal responsibility in a voting system configured so as to set them up to fail to do so.

Even worse, voters are being asked to exercise fiscal responsibility when the choice is cake now or some poorly understood complex thing later.

I expect that people can at least make the attempt to listen when those who understand the numbers say "woah nelly." What's really going to bite us is that we not only are going to have to pause teams, but we aren't going to get to take advantage of the free teams we would otherwise get this year.
 
I expect that people can at least make the attempt to listen when those who understand the numbers say "woah nelly." What's really going to bite us is that we not only are going to have to pause teams, but we aren't going to get to take advantage of the free teams we would otherwise get this year.

Or we won't and we won't.... There's a good chance we'll get 135 rp over the next two quarters, and a very high chance we get at least 100rp (meaning we only have to deactivate the generic teams). And then we'll stand there unbitten, and people won't learn anything.
 
We can sell the Apita a Rennie and/or Rennie-A, they only need to ask. There has to be at least one under construction that we can give them.

Edit: We do have one under construction, NCC-2636.
The thing is, they don't want a stock cruiser of any kind; they want to extensively modify an existing cruiser design so that it can act as a milk cow to support parasite frigates. There are few compelling reasons why this should be done based off the Renaissance chassis rather than the Constitution chassis, and the Constitution chassis has the major advantage that we've got like a dozen hulls of that class sitting around doing literally nothing.

On the other hand, the Renaissance chassis has the advantage that we're building huge numbers of them right now, which is admittedly nothing to sneeze at.

Notably, the Apiata don't actually have any 1-megaton berths. They would be refitting these in 2mt berths, as a faster alternative to more LQNs.
They don't have any 1mt berths, though. They have 0.6 and 2. That's all. It's such a waste for them.
If I were the Apiata, I'd be seriously considering building at least one or two one-megaton berths, just for the added flexibility and having at least the option of making use of new-generation frigate designs like the Kepler and Comet for specialist roles. I mean, practically their entire fleet consists of three designs; they may want the option of branching out a little, while the bulk of the fleet sticks to the existing doctrine.

Also, this isnt all about the Apiata. The specific short-term advantage of the project is, yes, that we have a few more motherships in the Apiata fleet. But the long-term advantage is that we have a Federation-standard-ish design that can act as a mothership to our Federation-standard-ish parasite frigate. If other Federation members that face considerable military threat and want to try starting up parasite warship production as a way to thicken the ranks of their combat forces (say, the Seyek), this gives them a way to do so without having to design and prototype their own entirely new warship classes.

If we wanted to encourage other members to experiment with the tech, I'm okay with that, but Apiata Connies isn't the right way to do it.
Well yes, a project to design a "Milch Rennie" would have all the same advantages. On the other hand, the Apiata didn't ask for it, and there's no fundamental reason the Constitution-B hulls should not or cannot be refitted. The original 'foundational' design may date back to the 2230s, but the hulls themselves are no more than fifteen years old, aside from a few reused spares that can be replaced in the normal course of things.

Well, for what you're talking about I can't help but feel that a Rennie would be a better base for the design.

Much as I like the idea of having a Connie-C, I suspect that if it ever comes it will be a cargo ship or an engineering ship.
I'm not opposed to this, but what I'm getting at is that if a new Constitution-based light tender design were available, it would fill a useful niche and role. This is not to say we couldn't in principle do somewhat better with a Renaissance-based version, but we could still get most of the benefit from the Connie version.

BTW, do we have any plans to do a large scale mothball of any other vessels in a near future? We can use Priority changes during MWCD to actually guide one of our members into long term plan that includes procurement (and possible refit) of former Federation vessels.
The other ship classes likely to be on the chopping block in the near future are the Constellations and Oberths. There really aren't enough Oberths for us to worry about how we handle their demobilization; Starfleet Intelligence and various civilian research organizations will both be interested. The Constellations need a second-generation refit program with 2330-era technology if we're going to make them competitive with the much more capable 2320s frigate designs; otherwise it's hard to justify a Constellation-A's crew cost when a Centaur-B can fulfill almost the same missions and free up 1O+2E of crew in the process. Or when a Kepler can perform as well or better in all areas with nearly identical crew cost.

If no such refit is possible, or if the refit isn't good enough to justify continuing the class in the face of competition from the Kepler(-A?) at the high end and the Centaur-B at the low end, we're probably going to be well advised to mothball the Constellations. Many of the arguments for doing so are actually even better than those for retiring the Constitution-Bs, in that at least 6-7 of the existing Constellation hulls now in service are 25-30 years old, probably older.

In real life, less capable ship classes are usually kept in service until they're too feeble to be effective or too old to be safe; here, we are ONLY retiring the Constitution-Bs because they are manpower-inefficient compared to other ships we would otherwise be unable to crew readily.

Uh... in terms of narrative, do our officers have the expertise to run those ships without having to do some retraining? I mean, they're purely Betazoid design.
In addition to the correct considerations pointed out above, the Patrollers were extensively refit with Federation technology during and shortly after the Licori War. The hardware shouldn't be too big of a problem. I suspect the biggest problem with integrating non-Betazoid crews on Patrollers will be installing a more comprehensive shipboard intercom system and otherwise redesigning the equipment on the assumption that crew can't communicate with each other telepathically.
 
In some ways retiring the Connie can be thought of as retiring ships originally designed for frontier conflict and the GBZ fight with the Cardassians once we have some breathing room to make the fleet more efficient. Kind of like what happens after a war I guess? Not a perfect analogy though.
 
I suspect the biggest problem with integrating non-Betazoid crews on Patrollers will be installing a more comprehensive shipboard intercom system and otherwise redesigning the equipment on the assumption that crew can't communicate with each other telepathically.

The Tauni don't seem to have any difficulties runnng the half dozen or so that they have built so I suspect that if their are difficulties the comm badges are more than adequate to resolve them.
 
and the Constitution chassis has the major advantage that we've got like a dozen hulls of that class sitting around doing literally nothing.

More like one or two now, not counting the Cheron.

The other ship classes likely to be on the chopping block in the near future are the Constellations and Oberths.

Specifically, the Un-Blooded Constellations. The ones which have picked up any rank of veterancy still have some use as secondary responders into the early 2330s.
 
We'll have to make a decision on the Constellations by 2328. If there's a refit on offer, I'll judge it on if it can offer a modern crew/stat point ratio.
 
Given that the ConnieBs were considered beyond a Starfleet refit, I see little point to making them into tenders. The Rennie is significantly better and can be used well into the 30s. The ConnieB statline sucks, and it won't get any better from here.
 
I'm not opposed to this, but what I'm getting at is that if a new Constitution-based light tender design were available, it would fill a useful niche and role. This is not to say we couldn't in principle do somewhat better with a Renaissance-based version, but we could still get most of the benefit from the Connie version.

I'd be interested in seeing what Starfleet could do with a tender/parasite ship combo as well.

We'll have to make a decision on the Constellations by 2328. If there's a refit on offer, I'll judge it on if it can offer a modern crew/stat point ratio.

If we can get that low crew Constie (what was it, 1/1/1?), I think it is totally worth it.

fasquardon
 
Constellation-B could also be a slightly cheaper 25BR/25SR refit for D6, I.e. C3 S5 H2 L3 P4 D6 O2E2T2, with T3 fuel. A Blooded one seems like it would remain a solid interior sector ship for a while yet.

I hope the T'Mir at least can keep on trucking for us until a worthy replacement frame is available for the name, perhaps the Outrider or Project Spectral.
 
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T'Mir:
C3 S7 H3 L4 P3 D1

Green Kepler:
C2 S7 H2 L4 P5 D5

It only beats a fresh out of the berth Kepler by C1, H1 (and lags P2, D4) - any Blooded Kepler will wipe out those bonuses. We already have a worthy replacement frame.
 
T'Mir:
C3 S7 H3 L4 P3 D1

Green Kepler:
C2 S7 H2 L4 P5 D5

It only beats a fresh out of the berth Kepler by C1, H1 (and lags P2, D4) - any Blooded Kepler will wipe out those bonuses. We already have a worthy replacement frame.
For a mere scientist-type ship, yes.

T'Mir is a Special Operations Ninja Stealth Ship, inserting and retrieving commandos undetected onto hypertech Dreadnoughts, delivering star-shattering weapons undetected (in war games) and completing the longest planned, unsupported contiguous Starfleet mission, in contested territory, and delivered operatives in support of the democratic revolution in Sydraxia.

No mere Kepler is worthy of carrying on that legacy or the name USS T'Mir (NCC-1507-A).
Explorer, or a S11 New Fast Scout type.

Edit:
We'll have to make a decision on the Constellations by 2328. If there's a refit on offer, I'll judge it on if it can offer a modern crew/stat point ratio.
I have a C5S5H3L5P4D7-9 O1E2T2 2327 medium frigate design that offers around 6 stat points/crew, but I'm guessing you're looking for rough Centaur-B equivalence (4.6-ish)?
 
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