Remove ads

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Linked contents
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
Reader mode
Deathbybunnies said:
Yes, but what does that have to do with getting rid of Mirandas? We can have Keplers even before we hit the combat cap.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'm saying Mirandas are bad and even in their primary role for us as combat ships it's a wash as to whether a Kepler would do it better, their replacement is a net positive on those grounds because we know there are things Kepler does better, and there may not be things they do worse.
 
Last edited:
I never really bought into the whole "BUT FILTHY PAPISTS WILL HAND OVER OUR STOCK IN GBZ FOR FREE!!!" narrative. Pacifists may be among the most idealistic of Federation's political alignments, but they're not stupid, and they know what they're doing when it comes to actual diplomatic negotiations (which includes things like "horribly lopsided deals are bad mmkay?"). Our decision not to authorize colonies in GBZ itself will likely help us here as well.

I'm actually more worried that with a settled border in GBZ there will be a political temptation to wind-down on Cardassian border, which will be a poor decision until KANTAI KESSEN happens and either us or Cardassians end up decisively beaten up.


Also, I feel like getting old in-universe. I remember the days back when on the map the Sydraxians were definitely in the bad guy camp, and we were all in WAR IMMINENT panic. How the time flies, eh?
 
Briefvoice said:
You should actually want to replace them with Renaissance-As.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Apples to oranges. Mirandas and Comets are frigates, Rennies are cruisers.

Night said:
I'm saying Mirandas are bad and even in their primary role for us as combat ships it's a wash as to whether a Kepler would do it better, their replacement is a net positive on those grounds because we know there are things Kepler does better, and there may not be things they do worse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And the Comet is objectively better than the Miranda.
 
@chriswriter90 Mirandas only participate in the Vanguard phase of a battle. Cruisers only participate in the Vanguard and a heavy metal. If we snapped our fingers and all the Mirandas turned into Rennies we would lose nothing and gain significant capability.

The Comet is a specialist response/Skirmish ship. It isn't intended as a Vanguard frigate. A Vanguard frigate basically is a better Miranda- maximum CLH for as cheap and quick to build as possible.

Night said:
I'm saying Mirandas are bad and even in their primary role for us as combat ships it's a wash as to whether a Kepler would do it better, their replacement is a net positive on those grounds because we know there are things Kepler does better, and there may not be things they do worse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If we seriously needed combat ships we'd have C4 L4 Mirandas and they'd be superior because we can build 2 for every Kepler. If its a binary choice between 1 Kepler and 1 Miranda you're correct but strategically not so much.
 
Night said:
I'm saying Mirandas are bad and even in their primary role for us as combat ships it's a wash as to whether a Kepler would do it better, their replacement is a net positive on those grounds because we know there are things Kepler does better, and there may not be things they do worse.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, but unless you literally think they're worse than no ship at all why wouldn't you take a Kepler without losing a Miranda over a Kepler and scrapping a Miranda?

Or are you literally saying their event pass rate is low enough you'd rather we didn't have them at all, in which case maybe that should be discussed in fleet distribution?
 
Forgothrax said:
Like, it's basically a "no fun allowed" mechanic because it takes away our ability to freely build ships (one of the major actions we are allowed to take) and constrains free choice. There are a multitude of different mechanics that encourage us to not build a private warfleet. The quest has run almost a year and a half without us ever coming close to the cap, and probably will continue to do so for some time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I actually disagree. It's a fairly reasonable constraint from a game balance standpoint and from an IC standpoint. Not only does it keep us from just making more ships to solve a problem, which is boring, btw, but it forces us to maximize what ships we do have to best cover our bases. It prompts this exact conversation: What do we retire when the time comes, and how do we retire them? Which actually makes things interesting.

From an IC standpoint it is completely valid, and getting rid of it makes little to no sense. We started this quest with a Starfleet that had been gutted by the council after an Admiral attempted to become far too milataristic. As a result, constraints on our science and combat scores are reasonable. Having a governing body tell its quasi-military that they have a limit and requirement on ship specifications and abilities, as well as overall ability makes perfect sense.
 
With how combat works, IIRC we'd shift to ultrahigh-quality ships in the long term, basically something with poor Stat:Resources, but a high Stat overall.
 
The Rennie can play the Miranda's role quite well. The one thing of that role it doesn't do is build quickly, a concern only in wartime. The members are also unlikely to want to retire a low end design with no replacement. The basic issue with replacing the Miranda is there is no place for a Miranda-style frigate in Starfleet's ideal peacetime deployment. Any place we'd see a Miranda we'd like to have a Centaur instead for only slightly more in resources.

In wartime that's a different story, and one reason we've been able to hold the GBZ so well is the sheer mass of firepower we've deployed there thanks to 10-11 cheap Mirandas, including some purposely built for conflict with Cardassia.

I'd love to get our members to give some feedback in MWCO on what to do with the Miranda or its replacement. There are combat refits available, a general refit is possible but not very efficient (better to build Centaurs), but also cheaper combat replacement designs or even a low end response frigate design in line with the Patroller-A. Other than keeping a spammy frigate on file as "in case of war break glass" we don't have much use for it as Starfleet, however.
 
pbluekan said:
I actually disagree. It's a fairly reasonable constraint from a game balance standpoint and from an IC standpoint. Not only does it keep us from just making more ships to solve a problem, which is boring, btw, but it forces us to maximize what ships we do have to best cover our bases. It prompts this exact conversation: What do we retire when the time comes, and how do we retire them? Which actually makes things interesting.

From an IC standpoint it is completely valid, and getting rid of it makes little to no sense. We started this quest with a Starfleet that had been gutted by the council after an Admiral attempted to become far too milataristic. As a result, constraints on our science and combat scores are reasonable. Having a governing body tell its quasi-military that they have a limit and requirement on ship specifications and abilities, as well as overall ability makes perfect sense.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


It is a very Starfleet TNG idea, the combat cap, though while I like having a limit of some sort, I am not completely sold on combat (tonnage or hulls sound a better contrain, but, then again, if we go TNG a combat cap is more than reasonable) but it is straightforward and easy to keep track of, so...
 
So basically, we're always going to want an up-to-date Miranda type ship...

But in peacetime, it's always going to be something along the lines of 'Maximum Amount is Border Zones times 2, Realistic Limit is Active Border Zones times 2'... Just so we have a few running around in case a war actually happens, training up crews for the ship, working out the kinks in the design and all the stuff. Which means when the war does happen, we rush the ships there to provide small warships, whilst mass producing them as much as possible elsewhere, using the proven, trusted designs we already have, rather than needing to rush a design through research, development, and testing before we can finally start mass producing the waves we need. But definitely less than the '1 for every sector at least' that we want for basically every other type of ship we construct.
 
UberJJK said:
The current Combat Cap is 560 which Briefvoice's spreadsheet projects us hitting in 2327. Although that isn't factoring in our Combat discount which push things out until 2330 and I'm not sure that takes into account our discount for ships in Border Zones. Since we picked up our new QMs we've progressed from starting 2319 on Sep 13, 2017 to starting 2321 on Dec 15, 2017. That's two in game years in 94 days. At this rate we'll hit 2327 in nine months and 2330 in fourteen months.

In other words it won't be until around halfway into the quest's third year that we'll start running into the Combat Cap and that assumes nothing happens along the way to push it out even further.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well, it is hard to say how long it is going to take us to reach 2027, quest might slow down or speed up, and with more QMs helping... but it is a good idea to have those numbers in mind. getting to the cap is going to take time, real world time...
 
The combat cap also introduces the problem of what to do with all the resources we'd be accumulating. Currently Starflet brings in:
  • 1,460BR
  • 1,125SR
  • 22.75 Officers
  • 34.49 Enlisted
  • 27.1 Technicians
  • 5 EC Officers
  • 5.17 EC Enlisted
  • 3.7 EC Technicians
every single year. Right now that is just enough to keep something like 90% of our shipyards active 24/7 but if we have to slow down, or even stop, our construction due to the combat cap those resources would just start piling up. In personnel alone we're talking about almost five thousand people every year qualifying and applying for starship positions who could be missing out on them due to the combat cap.

Honestly rather then some arbitrary combat cap it would make far more sense for the Council to throttle back it's resource commitments to Starfleet. That reduces our ability to construct more starships in a more natural way, massive resource buildups, and can be arguably considered a good thing since those resources would be flowing into our member worlds and member fleets.
 
UberJJK said:
The combat cap also introduces the problem of what to do with all the resources we'd be accumulating. Currently Starflet brings in:
  • 1,460BR
  • 1,125SR
  • 22.75 Officers
  • 34.49 Enlisted
  • 27.1 Technicians
  • 5 EC Officers
  • 5.17 EC Enlisted
  • 3.7 EC Technicians
every single year. Right now that is just enough to keep something like 90% of our shipyards active 24/7 but if we have to slow down, or even stop, our construction due to the combat cap those resources would just start piling up. In personnel alone we're talking about almost five thousand people every year qualifying and applying for starship positions who could be missing out on them due to the combat cap.

Honestly rather then some arbitrary combat cap it would make far more sense for the Council to throttle back it's resource commitments to Starfleet. That reduces our ability to construct more starships in a more natural way, massive resource buildups, and can be arguably considered a good thing since those resources would be flowing into our member worlds and member fleets.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

0c ships? :p

"Alright SDB, this is your hardest challenge yet. We need the best ship you can make with 0c so our resources and crew don't get throttled back like someone on government insurance not taking all their meds."
 
Last edited:
What do you guys actually want to do with all of those Mirandas, by the way?

Putting them on Task Forces where they'll have to make lots of checks seems like a poor idea. The two ideas I see are:

A. Divide them up among home sectors as secondary responders, 1/sector.

B. Put them in militarily-endangered border zones in squadrons of ~3-4 as a rapid response force just in case there's trouble on those borders. Something like:
Gabriel Border Zone - Keeps 4 Mirandas
Cardassian Border Zone - 3 Mirandas
Klingon Border Zone - 3 Mirandas
Romulan Border Zone - 3 Mirandas
Themis Border Zone - 2 Mirandas

????
 
Forgothrax said:
@chriswriter90 Mirandas only participate in the Vanguard phase of a battle. Cruisers only participate in the Vanguard and a heavy metal. If we snapped our fingers and all the Mirandas turned into Rennies we would lose nothing and gain significant capability.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ok, there is that.

Forgothrax said:
The Comet is a specialist response/Skirmish ship. It isn't intended as a Vanguard frigate. A Vanguard frigate basically is a better Miranda- maximum CLH for as cheap and quick to build as possible.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ok here's a different argument, by the time the first 'wave' of Comets complete it will have been over a decade of commitment. Ceasing Miranda & Centaur production in favor of Comets makes all the time we spent designing, prototyping, and building them feel worth it. Not building Comets after all the effort to get them in the field feels like a waste of time and resources.

UberJJK said:
The combat cap also introduces the problem of what to do with all the resources we'd be accumulating. Currently Starflet brings in:
  • 1,460BR
  • 1,125SR
  • 22.75 Officers
  • 34.49 Enlisted
  • 27.1 Technicians
  • 5 EC Officers
  • 5.17 EC Enlisted
  • 3.7 EC Technicians
every single year.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Build Starbases everywhere?

Build Yorktown?



Briefvoice said:
What do you guys actually want to do with all of those Mirandas, by the way?

B. Put them in militarily-endangered border zones in squadrons of ~3-4 as a rapid response force just in case there's trouble on those borders. Something like:
Gabriel Border Zone - Keeps 4 Mirandas
Cardassian Border Zone - 3 Mirandas
Klingon Border Zone - 3 Mirandas
Romulan Border Zone - 3 Mirandas
Themis Border Zone - 2 Mirandas
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I could get behind that. Also, you forgot the Horizon Border Zone.

Edit:

Gabriel Border Zone - Keeps 4 Mirandas
Horizon Border Zone - 4 Mirandas
Cardassian Border Zone - 3 Mirandas
Klingon Border Zone - 1 Miranda
Romulan Border Zone - 1 Miranda
Themis Border Zone - 1 Miranda

Alternatively:
Horizon Border Zone - 5 Mirandas
Gabriel Border Zone - Keeps 3 Mirandas
Cardassian Border Zone - 3 Mirandas
Klingon Border Zone - 1 Miranda
Romulan Border Zone - 1 Miranda
Themis Border Zone - 1 Miranda
 
Last edited:
Katsuragi said:
0c ships? :p

"Alright SDB, this is your hardest challenge yet. We need the best ship you can make with 0c so our resources and crew don't get throttled back like someone on government insurance not taking all their meds."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"I'm sorry sir but it just can't be done. Our sensors are too strong and the deflector..."

Seriously the last time I checked it was pretty much impossible to design a ship with 0C.
 
Last edited:
UberJJK said:
"I'm sorry sure but it just can't be done. Our sensors are too strong and the deflector..."

Seriously the last time I checked it was pretty much impossible to design a ship with 0C.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It is possible if you restrict yourself on which of two types of sensors you take. I managed it in my Hospital Rennie reconstruction.
Of course, as ships normally carry both, I have no idea what narrative consequences that would cause for the ship.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Yeah, but unless you literally think they're worse than no ship at all why wouldn't you take a Kepler without losing a Miranda over a Kepler and scrapping a Miranda?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is a dodge, considering the discussion is ongoing in the context of combat cap, and also that deactivating Mirandas frees up crew, which is our current bottleneck. Not huge amounts of crew, but if we're short just a tiny bit of crew for our next practically anything else, it's a worthwhile trade.

Briefvoice said:
B. Put them in militarily-endangered border zones in squadrons of ~3-4 as a rapid response force just in case there's trouble on those borders.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We might actually want to use the task force system for this and just collect two big task forces of Mirandas led by a Rennie or something, and designate them for response to border incursions and other shenanigans.
 
Last edited:
charysa said:
Throw all of them in a task force led by the USS Salnas and send them at the Hishmeri.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's not enough:
OneirosTheWriter said:
Hishmeri Fleet Strength Report

Specifics are difficult to obtain because the formations of the Hishmeri make a severe subspace disturbance in their wake, obliterating individual wakes. However, there are at least 20, and perhaps up to 30 powerful frigates in the force, as well as a large number of civilian ships of various shapes and sizes that have jury-rigged weapon systems, perhaps exceeding one hundred. There is a singular capital ship, not counting the capital-scale construction ships. To round it off, a set of hospital ships and "warhouse" super-freighters occupy core positions in the fleet. It is truly a civilisation on the move.

Defeating them outright would entail mobilising most of Starfleet, or a considerable member-fleet presence, but would run the risk of de facto genocide. Federation ethicists are debating the situation furiously.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We only have like 15 Miranda-As and even if the Hishmeri started out with just 20 of their frigates and somehow lost five since this report they'd still win because as it currently stands no one would consider the Miranda-A a "powerful" frigate.
 
Actually wasn't that an outlined role for task forces, to act as a strategic reserve for situations like a GBZ blowup? Presumably we could explicitly designate a task force for this role; their job is to wait for a crisis and deploy to provide military reinforcements if needed.
 
Last edited:
UberJJK said:
That's not enough:

We only have like 15 Miranda-As and even if the Hishmeri started out with just 20 of their frigates and somehow lost five since this report they'd still win because as it currently stands no one would consider the Miranda-A a "powerful" frigate.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The Hishmeri are very risk adverse. You don't need to be powerful, just fighty enough to risk hull damage to their ships and they'll probably leave.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top