[X][NASH] Order Rear Admiral ka'Sharren to fortify subsector Enio and aim to hold. You promise additional engineering resources.

[X][LIGHT] Change Civilian Colony Building to Yellow Light in Miele subsector, automatically change to yellow light in any subsector if all adjacent GBZ subsectors are fully explored, fortified and uncontested. Automatically change Mining Colony Building to green light in any subsector if all adjacent GBZ subsectors are fully explored, fortified and uncontested.
 
[X][NASH] Order Rear Admiral ka'Sharren to fortify subsector Enio and aim to hold. You promise additional engineering resources.

[X][LIGHT] Change Civilian Colony Building to Yellow Light in Miele subsector, automatically change to yellow light in any subsector if all adjacent GBZ subsectors are fully explored, fortified and uncontested. Automatically change Mining Colony Building to green light in any subsector if all adjacent GBZ subsectors are fully explored, fortified and uncontested.
 
Well, the Cardassians only have to try at strike Enio if they keep the treaty.

I am unsure whether the Cardassian government can survive admitting defeat and vacating the GBZ. So, if they get desperate enough, they could just let us gather a big fleet at Enio and then strike at, say, Indoria. Yes, it would be stupid, but natinalist militarist states have done stupid things when backed into the corner.
 
Remember that Nash has won every conflict she has fought with the Cardasians and this has a certain psychological effect on the Cardasian population as a whole as well as the military. This means that they will be reluctant to launch an attack while Nash is in overall command. They are probably also aware that Federation policy is to rotate commanders after 2 or 3 year in a particular theater so I suspect that they will refrain from attacking in the GBZ until Nash gets rotated out so as to avoid facing the bogeyman. That should result in at lest 9 months to fortify and scout out Enio sector before any likely Cardasian attack lets find and clear any Cardasian intelligence assets in Enio as a bare minimum.
 
Well, the Cardassians only have to try at strike Enio if they keep the treaty.

I am unsure whether the Cardassian government can survive admitting defeat and vacating the GBZ. So, if they get desperate enough, they could just let us gather a big fleet at Enio and then strike at, say, Indoria. Yes, it would be stupid, but natinalist militarist states have done stupid things when backed into the corner.
At which point that GBZ fleet drives straight for Cardassia.
 
We didn't launch the offensive with the intention of keeping Enio.

We just transferred the bulk of our ships out of the GBZ to other fronts.

We cannot keep Enio, we did not plan to keep it in the first place.
 
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The Cardassians have had ages to build up Enio. Operating in their backyard means they have all the advantages of already-established listening posts, being next door to starbase sensors, and a fully mapped subsector. The only things we've deprived them of so far are the outposts.
It would be rather stupid to let them keep their listening posts if they had any and didn't already evacuate them, and even stupider to allow them to resupply them. Listening posts are manned. Knowing where resource deposits and habitable planets are isn't a tactical advantage, only a strategic advantage if one side is going to exploit them later, which I don't think we are very likely to do any time soon, and the locations of star systems are trivial to detect at long range. Occasionally unusual features of a system can provide a gimmick advantage in that system, but that applies only if you can lure an enemy to that system. 24 and 26 Enio clearly don't have such a feature that they know of, otherwise they would already have used it against us.
Having ships pinned is a disadvantage. Remember that I consider the #1 defensive asset we have and the #1 reason we are still in the GBZ to be our GBZ fleet - the ships. The "hold Enio" vote commits the ships to defending Enio rather explicitly (unless faced with overwhelming odds we presume). Again, I consider this a mis-use of our #1 asset, which will get that asset damaged. I don't want to pin our ships, because I want to preserve our ships. I do consider it an overwhelmingly major disadvantage to have to use those ships to defend those locations; once again, locations in Enio are locations that do not need to be held and that we should be willing to give up.

I do consider a wide open plain to be a better strategic situation than a choke point given contextual factors, and would prefer to use highly maneuverable forces like space ships (or if we must make the analogy, cavalry) on an open plain then in a choke point. I would challenge the idea that we should pin space ships to fixed defenses when their biggest strength is that they can be moved. You yourself have pointed out that the ability to hit anywhere along a wide front will be an advantage the Cardassians will enjoy; that is predicated on the fact that ships are mobile. The uncertainty involved in a defensive fleet in being is a proven concept that prevents sallying forth in force; guessing is not good enough to make up for it when the risk of guessing wrong means years of rebuilding. Even 1 in 8 chance would be bad.


If we let them build a starbase in Enio, first, we will definitely hear about that (it's right next door), secondly, we will delay that starbase until they're committed to taking Enio even under the "hold as practicable" vote (it is not a "fold immediately" vote; that's a different option), thirdly, the sector commander would have a year to gather strength and prevent the starbase from being built, fourthly, calculations on Cardassian infrastructure strength estimate that a starbase would be a large portion of their yearly resources.

Our ships in Enio are only "pinned" in the sense that the place they are going to be in case of an attack from them is predictable, they can still attack anywhere they choose. That's the main reason the Cardassians would be more or less forced to attack there first, because the ships aren't "pinned" offensively.

Starships in this quest aren't even remotely like cavalry, they are like motorized infantry. The ability to travel at warp is never used during a battle (until they retreat). A 1 in 8 chance of needing to fight an actual battle is such an enormous advantage compared to a 1 in 1 chance of needing to fight an actual battle. If that 1 in 8 chance was considered a major problem for them wars wouldn't be a thing at all.

The option you are voting for amounts to letting them take Enio as soon as they are ready to make a somewhat serious effort. Arguing that a short while of defending Enio halfheartedly will provide a short while of protection to those subsectors isn't much of an argument against making a proper effort.

Mid term there are three options:
  1. We let them build a starbase in Enio.
  2. We keep attacking them in Enio every time they try to build a starbase there, taking a minefield to the face every time, until we are lured into a trap or just get unlucky and lose most of our GBZ fleet, precisely the thing you argued made trying to keep Enio non-viable. And remember, you already admitted fixed that defenses work well when you can force the enemy to attack you.
  3. We keep Enio.
Either you admit that we would let them build a starbase in Enio, or you need to argue that 2. is better than 3.

We don't know what special rules the Cardassians are operating under infrastructure wise but we know that they already built two starbases to support their GBZ activities and did that concurrently with a huge shipyard expansion program. The new system wasn't in place then, but the new system is supposed to formalize the ad hoc reasoning and estimation that was already used before, clearly the Cardassians aren't supposed to have less than 20% of the infrastructure capability of the Federation so there definitely are going to be some special rules or tweaks for them.

In the defense of Dorsata or Firefly, first, we will have a chunk of time to develop them regardless of vote (unless, of course, we divert engineering assets...), second, we will be defending them in range of starbase sensors as I think regardless of this decision we are going to build a GBZ starbase this year, third, we will be able to directly draw on the Apiata or Caitian+UESPA forces in defense which we can't do nearly as easily for Enio, fourth, we can afford to bleed if we get raided but we cannot afford to lose a large chunk of fleet.

That last point is the primary difference. If we commit to defending Enio, we have a far larger risk of being slammed with a defeat that will cascade into major defensive issues in the entire expanse. Even if the Cardassians can raid us, we can recover from being bled in a way that we cannot recover from being smashed.
Your argument was that we were starting from a higher level there, now you switched to arguing that we won't be stuck at the very low existing level forever (though with only a half-team for the Caitians it will feel like it's going to take forever). Which is of course true but not an argument why defending Dorsata and Firefly is supposed to be better. And if a single starbase can cover both Dorsata and Firefly it should also cover (most of) Enio. Yes, the one singular advantage of defending a subsector with a member presence is that you can link up with that member. That doesn't come remotely close to balancing out needing to defend three subsectors instead of just one.

And how do you suggest we defend those sectors without any risk of losing a large chunk of the fleet? Just let them keep raiding us until they win? Split up and virtually guarantee eventual defeat in detail, just without one decisive battle?

The only remotely viable way to defend the Dorsata, Camden and Firefly subsectors from attacks from Enio would be a counterattack to destroy whatever bases they would be using to launch the attacks. Which of course means risking losing a large chunk of the fleet.

So the only choices are to keep them from having bases in Enio by playing whack-a-mole until we end up losing a decisive battle, or to keep them from having bases in Enio by controlling Enio. I very much prefer the second option because it's them who will have to cross the minefields, and the current Cardassian fleet is very badly equipped for doing that.
 
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I am unsure whether the Cardassian government can survive admitting defeat and vacating the GBZ. So, if they get desperate enough, they could just let us gather a big fleet at Enio and then strike at, say, Indoria. Yes, it would be stupid, but natinalist militarist states have done stupid things when backed into the

The Federation has just withdrawn unilateraly from 45 Gabriel without any concessions from the Cardasians or requiring any effort on their part they can just walk in and take it. Hopefully the outpost and mines were leveled first so they will have to rebuild but they now hold the Gabriel subsector in its entirity.

In short their is no danger of them losing the GBZ in its entirity they just won't have the option of forcing the Federation out of it quite so easily if Enio remains under Federation control.
 
It would be rather stupid to let them keep their listening posts if they had any and didn't already evacuate them, and even stupider to allow them to resupply them. Listening posts are manned. Knowing where resource deposits and habitable planets are isn't a tactical advantage, only a strategic advantage if one side is going to exploit them later, which I don't think we are very likely to do any time soon, and the locations of star systems are trivial to detect at long range. Occasionally unusual features of a system can provide a gimmick advantage in that system, but that applies only if you can lure an enemy to that system. 24 and 26 Enio clearly don't have such a feature that they know of, otherwise they would already have used it against us.
We've already seen in Ghosts and Whispers that listening posts are easy to conceal, and we know that they don't require constant supply, more in the 1/year category. Scouted systems and scouted space has been pointed out several times in the tactical report to be an advantage - are you claiming more expertise than SF Tactical in this? Even with 24 and 26 Enio as strong points, the Cardassians still have a terrain advantage because they've explored this sector and we haven't. Remember, during the campaign, there were "flanking systems" that did hold military advantage even if they weren't used in that campaign. The simplistic view that only the features and defenses of 24 and 26 Enio matter is false. Heck, we even know that reinforcements with low-S will have trouble traversing the Badlands in time to reinforce a defending fleet in the Enio subsector. That describes most of the Apiata and Amarki fleets!

Our ships in Enio are only "pinned" in the sense that the place they are going to be in case of an attack is predictable, they can still attack anywhere they choose. That's the main reason the Cardassians would be more or less forced to attack there first, because the ships aren't "pinned" offensively.

Starships in this quest aren't even remotely like cavalry, they are like motorized infantry. The ability to travel at warp is never used during a battle (until they retreat). A 1 in 8 chance of needing to fight an actual battle is such an enormous advantage compared to a 1 in 1 chance of needing to fight an actual battle. If that 1 in 8 chance was considered a major problem for them wars wouldn't be a thing at all.

The option you are voting for amounts to letting them take Enio as soon as they are ready to make a somewhat serious effort. Arguing that a short while of defending Enio halfheartedly will provide a shprt while of protection to those subsectors isn't much of an argument against making a proper effort.

Mid term there are three options:
  1. We let them build a starbase in Enio.
  2. We keep attacking them in Enio every time they try to build a starbase there, taking a minefield to the face every time, until we are lured into a trap or just get unlucky and lose most of our GBZ fleet, precisely the thing you argued made trying to keep Enio non-viable. And remember, you already admitted fixed that defenses work well when you can force the enemy to attack you.
  3. We keep Enio.
Either you admit that we would let them build a starbase in Enio, or you need to argue that 2. is better than 3.

We don't know what special rules the Cardassians are operating under infrastructure wise but we know that they already built two starbases to support their GBZ activities and did that concurrently with a huge shipyard expansion program. The new system wasn't in place then, but the new system is supposed to formalize the ad hoc reasoning and estimation that was already used before, clearly the Cardassians aren't supposed to have less than 20% of the infrastructure capability of the Federation so there definitely are going to be some special rules or tweaks for them.

Ships defending Enio are pinned, because aren't going to take offensive action, and in fact we gave up 45 Gabriel and never even considered hitting 67 Gabriel. We would be restricted by the stipulations of the ongoing vote, which tell us that our ships ought to be used to hold the Enio subsector.

A 1 in 8 chance that you lose your fleet because you run headlong into a superior force is unacceptable. That is the core concept a defensive fleet in being - you can't predict where the enemy is, so aggressive actions are restricted. Offensive operations in real life have been limited by intelligence disadvantages exactly like this, and it takes a great deal of intel work and slow building of advantages to overcome the uncertainty. I will reference Ghosts and Whispers, where T'Lorel was unable to operate in the Straits of Themis because of an intel disadvantage, and additionally Ixaria, where Ka'Sharren resolved an intelligence uncertainty and won a war. The Morshadd-Gammon-Ixaria triangle is the same distance as Enio-Dorsata-Firefly, too.

Certainty and uncertainty are the pivots around which operations turn, and enemies whose locations are unknown are paralyzing even at odds like 1 in 8. Some commanders may take the risk, but it is in fact a major risk, not an auto-take. And in order to prosecute a raiding strategy, they have to take that risk repeatedly, over and over.

And yes, I do prefer hitting a starbase under construction. We have the intelligence advantage in scouting a fixed location while they have a disadvantage in trying to count fleets whose locations are unknown. In addition, because they must commit to a single system, we can use time to prepare an assault force. The advantage of uncertainty is on our side in scenario 2, while it is working against us in scenario 3. As to whether they can afford the starbase, every sign we have is that their logistics are pushed to the limit right now.

Your argument was that we were starting from a higher level there, now you switched to arguing that we won't be stuck at the very low existing level forever (though with only a half-team for the Caitians it will feel like it's going to take forever). Which is of course true but not an argument why defending Dorsata and Firefly is supposed to be better. And if a single starbase can cover both Dorsata and Firefly it should also cover (most of) Enio. Yes, the one singular advantage of defending a subsector with a member presence is that you can link up with that member. That doesn't come remotely close to balancing out needing to defend three subsectors instead of just one.

And how do you suggest we defend those sectors without any risk of losing a large chunk of the fleet? Just let them keep raiding us until they win? Split up and virtually guarantee eventual defeat in detail, just without one decisive battle?

The only remotely viable way to defend the Dorsata, Camden and Firefly subsectors from attacks from Enio would be a counterattack to destroy whatever bases they would be using to launch the attacks. Which of course means risking losing a large chunk of the fleet.

So the only choices are to keep them from having bases in Enio by playing whack-a-mole until we end up losing a decisive battle, or to keep them from having bases in Enio by controlling Enio. I very much prefer the second option because it's them who will have to cross the minefields, and the current Cardassian fleet is very badly equipped for doing that.

We have far more teams working on defenses in other sectors than we would in Enio, and we don't need to be everywhere. We use uncertainty to paralyze action, but if they chose to take raiding action anyway, as long as we prove that we can hit some raiders, the raiding strategy becomes unviable. I reject the false dilemma offered because it's premises are incorrect.

If you say the Cardassian fleet is badly equipped to pass minefields, it's even more badly equipped to pass the Badlands.
 
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Do remember that the ISC are moving into the GBZ so expect the Cardasians to focus their attentions on the new and poorly established player first. Much easier to defeat them before they get established and use their entry point to wage a campaign to conquer and vasalise the new and doubtless minor player ( assuming that the Cardasians don't have much knowledge of the ISC size ) altenatively they have a majour second front to deal with in the GBZ. Either way attacking a fortified Enio subsector is going to cost them assets and weaken their ability to deal with the ISC.

In any case this will cause much greater uncertancy within the GBZ for the Cardasians but not for the Federation as they have reasonably goor relations with the ISC. The only silverlining for the Cardasians is that they will be introduced to phaser array technology so it won't come as such a surprise when the Federation deploys them.
 
[X][NASH] Hold as practicable, but withdraw if the Cardassians push

[X][LIGHT] Change Civilian Colony Building to Yellow Light in Miele subsector, automatically change to yellow light in any subsector if all adjacent GBZ subsectors are fully explored, fortified and uncontested. Automatically change Mining Colony Building to green light in any subsector if all adjacent GBZ subsectors are fully explored, fortified and uncontested.

Robert E Lee gave a 'Do X as practical' order once. It left the receiving officer scratching his head wondering WTF the order actually meant.

Nash is a lot smarter than Ewell was, a lot more inclined to independent action, and would have actually listened to Trimble.
 
Do remember that the ISC are moving into the GBZ so expect the Cardasians to focus their attentions on the new and poorly established player first. Much easier to defeat them before they get established and use their entry point to wage a campaign to conquer and vasalise the new and doubtless minor player ( assuming that the Cardasians don't have much knowledge of the ISC size ) altenatively they have a majour second front to deal with in the GBZ. Either way attacking a fortified Enio subsector is going to cost them assets and weaken their ability to deal with the ISC.

To be fair, we don't know much about the ISC's size either. The only reason we treat them like a Major Power is that we were explicitly told they are out of game, but we've never gotten a fleet strength report or anything like that.
 
I am a little surprised that I haven't seen discussion about the Licori building Romulan shipping.

It was missed in all the excitement. So mad if they steal the Licori out from under us.

I hadn't noticed.

....

Definitely a Licori diplo-push this Snakepit.

Our relations are at least 50/100; According to some players' math we're already over 100 relations with them. We're just not allowed to affiliate them for... reasons. :anger:
 
To be fair, we don't know much about the ISC's size either. The only reason we treat them like a Major Power is that we were explicitly told they are out of game, but we've never gotten a fleet strength report or anything like that.
There's also the bit where they detailed 6 cruisers for a single first contact, and have the fleet strength to operate multiple three-cruiser patrols in the same region. That implies serious fleet strength.
 
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