Okay, a few things I want to comment on.

1) I don't get why people are suddenly so outraged at the Cardassians. This is, like, possibly the least atrocious or underhanded offensive action they've taken against us. They destroyed one of our cruisers in a mutually recognized free fire zone and captured its crew. We would have done the same if we happened to get the drop on a lone Jaldun.

2) While I would love to believe that the Konen are plotting to weaken the Cardassian military to the point where they can betray them and regain independence, I really, really doubt it. In recent months, we have learned that the Konen are both very smart and very good at being stealthy. Surely, they would realize that their plan is more likely to work if we know about it and cooperate with them from the beginning, and their stealth and telepathy would enable them to communicate it with us covertly. The fact that they have not told us about such a plan is fairly strong evidence that they don't have one.

3) If the prisoners are still being held anywhere within the GBZ by the time our fleet gets to them, then that means they're being used as bait. If I were Hybor or his Cardassian counterpart and I wasn't planning to use the prisoners as bait, I'd have them shipped as far from the front lines as I could, as fast as I could. Either they're being kept in a supermax deep in established Ashalla space, or there's a million Jalduns hiding in a sensor-proof gas cloud near the GBZ starbase that's holding them.
Speaking for myself:

1) I'm entirely not outraged at the Cardassians and Konen over them blowing up our spaceship. If not for the fact that I expect them to brutally torture the crew, I would feel literally zero outrage over the whole affair. Now, I want to kick the Cardassians so hard the universe cracks and they literally get knocked into the middle of next week... but I already wanted to do that anyway; this is just a good reason to move it up on my to-do list. :p

2) Yeah, probably. The main reason it was even worth bothering to speculate about is because it's funny. That said, bear in mind that the Konen might well have no faith in our ability to keep the secret from the Obsidian Order or the Lecarre. If they think of us as a bunch of idealistic, heavily armed rubes, "useful idiot" is a fairly plausible way they might try to take advantage of our presence.

3) Yeah, very possibly. If the prisoners are out of the GBZ, the plan for me reverts to something like "well, let's see if they think bushwhacking our ships and torturing the crews is such a great plan if we retaliate with a massive offensive that beats the snot out of them in the GBZ and probably takes like eight prisoners for each of ours. Also gives us a high probability of outright breaking any trap they care to set for us.

This is a Council Norm, as Oneiros said. You can't pin this on the cat, just the political process in general.
A political process in which you fire your general if they try to rescue prisoners captured in a war zone promptly, when the enemy is known for torturing prisoners, because the enemy happened to capture those prisoners two or three weeks before Election Day, is a deeply flawed process.

In this case, I've got enough contempt for the 'game' for some of it to splash onto the 'players.' N'Gir is the most conspicuous one, but I'd lose a lot of respect for Stesk if he did the same thing for the same reasons.

This is why I brought up Stesk -- in a similar situation it's highly likely he'd do the same. It's less to do with the free-fire zone and more with Nash wanting to rush so bad to get prisoners that she's literally not willing to extend the window of operations a few weeks until after the elections. Which might be fair with prisoners, but like... the thread resoundingly instead voted to wait for a larger strike based more on retaliation, anyways. I don't think prisoner rescue really got brought up until that had firmly snowballed. And like, N'Gir is fine with this? We're fine with this? What's the complaint?
For me, the complaint is that we were forced to, in effect, give up hope for a quick rescue of the prisoners. That was receiving considerable support, and the reason it recieved LESS than outstanding support seems to be due to the promise of an 80% chance of punishment by N'Gir, with a 40% chance of her outright sacking the head of Starfleet.

We accepted the delayed attack en masse partly because reinforcements are good, but also partly because we were outright told that Starfleet would get treated like a naughty child and spanked for attacking promptly, regardless of the military merits of doing so, because of the political riskiness of a prompt attack shortly before the election.

SHE HASN'T EVEN DONE ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL TO US

I DON'T GET IT

She's abrasive and mean-spirited every time we meet her; I think that has more to do it than anything concrete that she does.

We're not at war. The homefront is at peace and we're not in an SOE. There's no need for large-scale offensives right away; indeed we voted not to anyways to get extra time to gather forces and really bring the hammer down.
We voted that way largely to avoid a spanking, which does little for our liking of the person who threatened the spanking.
 
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LBZ and CBZ were both immediately followed by a deployment vote, right after the snakepit results. I said 2 of 3 times, so I don't see why you are even bringing up the SBZ, obviously that's the third one.
Because context matters? :rolleyes:

a) The CBZ happened way early in the quest, back when we couldn't vote for border zones, and when quarterly deployments weren't a thing yet (seriously, check the winning vote). In fact, it happened before the snakepit itself in a "snakepit precursor" update.

b) The LBZ was emergency preparation for the war and could be considered an unusual state of affairs. It didn't even function like a normal border zone until after the war. It also happened in Q3 way after the snakepit.

c) The SBZ was the only time we voted for a border zone in a snakepit, and thus its 2 quarter setup could be considered the normal state of affairs.
 
Also, the Konen may expect Nash to attack, but they wouldn't be the first people to misestimate or underestimate her...
Misunderestimate?
As it stands, though, the idea of much of the Federation political establishment (or N'Gir in particular) actually resenting Sulu over this? For ordering a rescue operation and counterattack when an enemy raid blows up one of his ships in a war zone? That comes across as... kind of sociopathically indifferent. Like "what, hundreds of redshirts just got imprisoned and interrogated by psychic torturers? Oh well, we have reserves."
Leaked video of N'Gir at a Medieval reenactment fair on Earth.
 
Ultimately, if it's a council norm, N'Girs hands are tied. Politicians will value good governance and fair play in elections that involve billions over 400 prisoners. If you want to critique that thinking fine, but to pin it all on N'Gir doing it for selfish political reasons is irksomly inaccurate.

Like imagine this from NGirs perspective as Federation Quest. She probably would get an option like "[ ]launch a major offensive in retaliation (40% chance major political stonewalling from other council factions, 40% minor retaliatory action from other parties, 20% they do nothing). And, unlike what people assume, if her prepolling is showing her party losing she's less likely to do anything to piss off new councillors who don't belong to her faction.
 
1) I don't get why people are suddenly so outraged at the Cardassians. This is, like, possibly the least atrocious or underhanded offensive action they've taken against us. They destroyed one of our cruisers in a mutually recognized free fire zone and captured its crew. We would have done the same if we happened to get the drop on a lone Jaldun.
We would attack a Jaldun, but stop shooting after they surrendered. We wouldn't plant bombs. At least I hope we wouldn't.
2) While I would love to believe that the Konen are plotting to weaken the Cardassian military to the point where they can betray them and regain independence, I really, really doubt it. In recent months, we have learned that the Konen are both very smart and very good at being stealthy. Surely, they would realize that their plan is more likely to work if we know about it and cooperate with them from the beginning, and their stealth and telepathy would enable them to communicate it with us covertly. The fact that they have not told us about such a plan is fairly strong evidence that they don't have one.
If they can make the plan work without telling us that's one less possibility for the plan to get betrayed.
 
I am not sure how many others felt this way but I supported the Q2 attack because I find it unlikely that our personel are still in the GBZ to rescue. Since I think the Cardassians would want to get one of biggest intelligence sources they have gotten to a secure location ASAP.

Given rescue seemed unlikey to be viable unless Nash had attack almost literally immediately, I am in favor of hitting the Cardassians as hard as feasibly possible, thus I supported delaying and giving Nash as much force as possible.
 
Thinking about it. I'm not sure if anyone ever asked about this.

@OneirosTheWriter how widespread is N'Gir's idea of 'New Members vs Original Four' and how justified is that position generally speaking? While joining the Federation is often seen as a positive thing with lots of benefits, I can't believe it's all sunshine and roses under the hood.

And while this might be a little silly to ask now, with elections coming up and the fact that she might be gone in the near future. But what's N'Gir been doing domestically and how has it been received?
 
We never had the element of surprise, they had to have known that we'd have to respond, either with force or tightening our defenses. And they likely prepared for either situation.
But a fast successful raid might get us some prisoners we can exchange while bunkering down and suffering more raids won't do that. On the other hand, a raid is expected and nearly guaranteed to encounter traps.
 
We would attack a Jaldun, but stop shooting after they surrendered. We wouldn't plant bombs. At least I hope we wouldn't.

If they can make the plan work without telling us that's one less possibility for the plan to get betrayed.

If the Jaldun surrendered, we would capture it and imprison its crew. Which isn't much different from what the Konen did, and may in fact not be different at all when you consider that sometimes ships get destroyed faster than they can surrender.

We absolutely would plant bombs if we had a way of doing so. Why would we not? Sneaking aboard an enemy ship and planting a bomb isn't morally different from shooting torpedoes at it.

Fair point about the Konen schemes.
 
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Because context matters? :rolleyes:

a) The CBZ happened way early in the quest, back when we couldn't vote for border zones, and when quarterly deployments weren't a thing yet (seriously, check the winning vote). In fact, it happened before the snakepit itself in a "snakepit precursor" update.

b) The LBZ was emergency preparation for the war and could be considered an unusual state of affairs. It didn't even function like a normal border zone until after the war. It also happened in Q3 way after the snakepit.

c) The SBZ was the only time we voted for a border zone in a snakepit, and thus its 2 quarter setup could be considered the normal state of affairs.
a) Quarterly deployments (meaning preemptive changes responding to anticipated events) not being "a thing" is entirely a matter of what sort of plans were made, not a change of rules. There haven't been any changes to deployment rules since the biophage crisis (other than arguably the shift to taking major worlds into account, which happened after the SBZ). I'm not sure how you think a vote for a border zone happened in the 2306 snakepit, leading to calling a deplyoment vote in the 2306 snakepit results, when we "couldn't vote for border zones". I also don't see why you are linking to a 2308 deployment plan that doesn't have anything to do with anything discussed here?

b) The LBZ was called for in an unusual state of affairs, but somehow the Clover outpost ended up existing before the state of emergency even came into effect, and so must have been constructed during the very same quarter it was decided on, and there were ships there ready to intercept intruders as part of the state of emergency deployment as early as the next quarter. It would be somewhat understandable to claim that the LBZ isn't good precedent for anything, but trying to claim it as precedent for coming into effect only after at least 2 quarters like you did is ridiculous.

c) The SBZ was also a very unusual state of affairs, IMO even more so than the LBZ, as it involved existing sectors ceding territory (with existing patrol routines) that included two major colonies. That would obviously require preparations on behalf of the respective members and some negotiation regarding the precise rules of access for them, as well as making sure there is no distruption during the handover that could be exploited for a raid, none of which would be the case for a HBZ. Other unusual aspects are being protection from a mid rank rather than a major power (shared with the LBZ) and the whole one-sided state of war aspect (that had already lasted several years by then).

The CBZ declaration is by far the most directly analog one (protecting from a major power, newly claimed territory, on the other side of/encompassing existing affiliates, no transfers of major colonies, no state of emergency, no one-sided state of war), so if you rule it out on account of being too long ago there isn't any reasonable precedent at all, which means we should act conservatively rather than counting on deployments being delayed to a conveinient time. It would also be reasonable to claim 1 precedent for immediately coming into effect (CBZ) or 3 precedents.
 
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Okay, now that I'm off work, here's why I like Briefvoice's plan:

While a large part of me, the part of me that would hope, say, the US would roll fast and hard to rescue the captured crew of my ship after its destruction at the hands of an enemy, wants to whistle up what we've got available and go headhunting in Cardassian space and the GBZ, there is considerable merit in waiting the quarter before striking. Our intel folks may very well figure out how the OO got onboard the Republic and help keep the same from happening twice while we gather forces... and I want our response to be so overwhelming and terrible that the Cardies don't even *think* about this again for shitting themselves at the thought of Starfleet phasers over Cardassia.

It's all locked in now, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing a rescue in overwhelming force enacted.
 
a) Quarterly deployments (meaning preemptive changes responding to anticipated events) not being "a thing" is entirely a matter of what sort of plans were made, not a change of rules. There haven't been any changes to deployment rules since the biophage crisis (other than arguably the shift to taking major worlds into account, which happened after the SBZ). I'm not sure how you think a vote for a border zone happened in the 2306 snakepit, leading to calling a deplyoment vote in the 2306 snakepit results, when we "couldn't vote for border zones". I also don't see why you are linking to a 2308 deployment plan that doesn't have anything to do with anything discussed here?

Okay, I completely missed the CBZ being created in 2306 in my search. It was indeed a snakepit vote and immediate fleet deployment. That said, it was even earlier in game than I thought, like barely a month into it.

b) The LBZ was called for in an unusual state of affairs, but somehow the Clover outpost ended up existing before the state of emergency even came into effect, and so must have been constructed during the very same quarter it was decided on, and there were ships there ready to intercept intruders as part of the state of emergency deployment as early as the next quarter. It would be somewhat understandable to claim that the LBZ isn't good precedent for anything, but trying to claim it as precedent for coming into effect only after at least 2 quarters like you did is ridiculous.

The reason I said 2 quarters was because I didn't recall seeing any interceptions during Q4 of that year (except by Atuin, but that's FYM), and just the practical matter of it taking months to gather ships across all of the Federation to gather in the LBZ staging point. But I do see that the Licori Sessions took place near the end of Q3, so it would be better to say it took about a quarter to fully complete the redeployment. It's still an exceptional scenario though, what with the whole war thing.

As for Clover outpost, that fact it was mentioned in the Licori Sessions strongly indicates it already existed. It's hardly the first time Starfleet has built a station or colony outside of nominal Federation territory, or it could just be the case it was claimed Federation territory part of some adjacent sector and we never knew about it.

c) The SBZ was also a very unusual state of affairs, IMO even more so than the LBZ, as it involved existing sectors ceding territory (with existing patrol routines) that included two major colonies. That would obviously require preparations on behalf of the respective members and some negotiation regarding the precise rules of access for them, as well as making sure there is no distruption during the handover that could be exploited for a raid, none of which would be the case for a HBZ. Other unusual aspects are being protection from a mid rank rather than a major power (shared with the LBZ) and the whole one-sided state of war aspect.

Eh, perhaps. Depends on how much of legislative work time was due to the territory transfers, or just the authorization itself.

Definitely not as unusual as the LBZ though - can't really compete with what was effectively a staging ground for a gigantic wartime force, that only later morphed into a standard peacetime (or cold war) border zone. I'd compare the LBZ creation more with that of the GBZ, where "border zone" is more of a euphemism.

The CBZ declaration is by far the most directly analog one (protecting from a major power, newly claimed territory, on the other side of/encompassing existing affiliates, no transfers of major colonies, no state of emergency, no one-sided state of war), so if you rule it out on account of being too long ago there isn't any reasonable precedent at all, which means we should act conservatively rather than counting on deployments being delayed to a conveinient time. It would also be reasonable to claim 1 precedent for immediately coming into effect (CBZ) or 3 precedents.

I still think the SBZ is the most direct precedent, given how ... loose with numbers the early game was. But I also am not counting on a HBZ taking 2 quarters to setup. I don't think the offensive is going to end in 2 quarters anyway.

If we're going to have a HBZ, we'll have to find some way to garrison it with forces outside of the GBZ for the rest of this year, which I'm doubting is possible (haven't checked though). As for the merits of having a HBZ, enough has been said about that, so I won't drag it into the thread again.
 
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[X][NASH] Authorise an offensive and write-in reinforcements (40% chance President summarily fires you for authorising a major attack on the eve of the elections, 40% lesser consequences, 20% no care)
-[X] Reinforce as follows: Lightning (Centaur-A) from Sol Sector, Husacar (Constitution-B) from Andor Sector, Endurance (Excelsior-A) and Bull (Blooded Centaur-A) from Ferasa Sector, Avandar (Excelsior) from Rigel Sector, Yukikaze (Blooded Centaur-A) from Apinae Sector, Inspire (Oberth) and Calypso (Miranda-A) from RBZ, Thirishar (Blooded Excelsior) and Dynamo (Miranda-A) from KBZ, Spirit (Excelsior-A) and Reason (Renaissance) from CBZ, Zephyr (Blooded Centaur-A) and Gale (Blooded Centaur-A) from SBZ, and Svai (Miranda-A) from LBZ = Total Reinforcements of 2 Excelsior-A, 2 Excelsior (1 Blooded), 1 Constitution-B, 1 Renaissance, 5 Centaur-A (4 Blooded), 3 Miranda-A, and 1 Oberth
 
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If the Cardassians have managed to sabotage all our ships, or even most of them, the odds of their saboteurs being detected go up exponentially.

I mean, it's actually far from unheard of in Star Trek for someone to covertly smuggle something nasty onto one ship. Things can teleport in Star Trek. It's not necessarily that hard. But if they were doing this to all our ships, including explorers with excellent sensor suites and science teams and very large crews, someone would have spotted it.

I strongly suspect this was a one-off. The Cardassians sabotaged Republic using a trick that wouldn't have worked if they tried it a dozen times, sort of like how we probably couldn't have gotten away with sneaking into a dozen Cardassian outpost systems back in the oughts and blowing up a dozen of their installations using solar flares. Sooner or later they'd have worked out what we did and how to counter it, if we spammed the technique.

Furthermore, it's safe to assume that the Gabriel Border Zone fleet's security and intelligence officers, who are not utter idiots, will be running a great many sweeps and checks and reviews of their own. If the Cardassians have implemented a widespread program of sabotage somehow, I suspect they're going to get caught really fast.

You misunderstand, i never claimed all our ships have been messed with, just that we don't know how the demo charges got into the republic. and never said that all our ships would be victim to the same fate that befell Republic, just that they struck us and if they do have some operators within our forces, they might get intel that we are coming and from where we stripped ships for the retaliatory strike.
They can use that to either meet the force on their terms or, even more interesting, use that time to raid the hell of our Gabriel Hinterlands. Even if we do extract a pound of flesh out of that counterstrike, what do you think the reaction back in the federation would be?

I don't know where you got the idea that the Cardies would sneak in further demo charges into our fleet (assuming that is what they did), specially in the aftermath of the Republic. At no time I stated that nor did I thought it likely.
I am far more worried with the bigger picture here and wanted to wait for more info on the nature of the hit on the Republic to know if we had any holes in our intel aparatus, if we had infiltrators (not saboteurs, by and large, but observers and the like) before going half cocked onto a retaliatory strike that is, basically, what the cardies would expect of anyone.

it is an old trick, anger your enemy, force him to attack you and use that time to hit him elsewhere...
 
That said, it was even earlier in game than I thought, like barely a month into it.
[...]
I still think the SBZ is the most direct precedent, given how ... loose with numbers the early game was.
I think you are a bit biased because you weren't there for the actual early game (IMO from the start of the game to the end of the biophage crisis). 2306 was IMO broadly in the same phase of the game as 2311 was (end of biophage crisis to Treaty of Celos), of course you can split that phase into smaller sub-phases if you want, but if 2306 is too ancient to be relevant there also have to be serious doubts about 2311 being relevant. It's true that the pace of the game has slowed down considerably (used to be a week for a in-game year, now it's about a month for an in-game year), but the 2311 snakepit was only a bit over two months after the game start as well.

Start of the game to biophage crisis: Static territory not tracked on a map, no peace time deployment votes, mechanics being phased in on a regular schedule, no ship design, no ongoing conflict except the biophage arc, Romulans and Klingons the only other known major powers. (The first map and the first version of the design sheet both appeared during the crisis and weren't official or particularly usable).

End of biophage crisis to treaty of Celos: Rapid expansion (mostly spinward), accession of new members, map becoming (semi-)official and gradually expanding in detail of coverage, semi-regular deployment votes, ongoing tweaking of mechanics with occasional new ones, ship design on the non-part version of the sheet actually being used (mostly for affiliates), Cardassians as new major power, ongoing open skirmishing with the Cardassians everywhere and constant struggle for influence with species in the frontier area, no direct diplomatic lines to them, various secondary crises.

Treaty of Celos to now: Slowed expansion (mostly coreward), accession moratorium for much of this period, mechanic tweaks relatively rare, ship design on the parts version of the sheet, conflict with Cardassians confined to GBZ and diplomatic channels open, contact with new major powers in the ISC and HoH. (otherwise like the intermediate phase)
 
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FYI.

Total Starfleet + Member Fleet Forces active in Task Forces 1, 2, and 3 during the Licori War. (Task Force 4 not included as it remained on defensive patrol the entire time. Also does not include Gaeni or Kep Paddah forces.)

33 ships - 7 Battleships. 7 Modern Cruisers, 3 Old Cruisers, 9 Modern Frigates, 4 Old Frigates. 3 Science ships
6 Excelsiors
1 Mega-Tortoise
1 Renaissance
3 Constitution-B
3 Turtleships
2 Constellations
1 Betazoid Patrol Cruiser
4 Centaur-A
5 Miranda-A
3 Miranda
1 Oda-Gach Cutter
3 Oberth

Total Starfleet assets in GBZ if my reinforcements plan goes through. (Assume Member Fleets will stay on defensive guard, obviating need to leave Starfleet assets on guard.)

34 Ships - 6 Battleships, 8 Modern Cruisers, 19 Modern Frigates, 1 Science Ship
4 Excelsior-A
2 Excelsior (1 Blooded)
3 Constitution-B
5 Renaissance
5 Centaur-A (4 Blooded)
14 Miranda-A
1 Oberth

To be fair, in the Arcadian War, the border-patrolling TF 4 did strike first blood, the Gaeni TF 6 did participate in the Battle of Gammon (along with chasing and defeating the last Kortennon warships), and the Ked Paddah played a huge role in Ixaria.

I'm also expecting all Federation forces in the GBZ to relevant, whether on offense or defense. With the way the Konen are playing, and the way that Nash is going to try to find battles, I'm expecting the GBZ to be a series of attacks and counter-attacks in a fluid battlespace over the next few quarters. All the while, our total forces comprise a significant fleet in being and tactical deterrence. So the total fleet strength, including the member fleets, is probably just as important as the Starfleet-only fleet strength.

The total fleet strength we've gathered up in the GBZ is now:
C229 S185 H142 L239 D213 => totals 809
+ most systems with colonies defended by an outpost (3 of which are reinforced, spread across Sguirri and Collie) and/or a station; Apruzza however is noticeably lacking in static defenses

The Cardassian+Konen fleet strength is approximately (+/- at least 10 points):
C~120 S~70 H~110 L~110 D~100 => totals ~500
+ a starbase and likely several outposts and stations

In total fleet strength*, we should totally crush them even with their static defenses, while adequately defending our colonies and logistics train.

Of course, the Cardassians and Konen also have a quarter to prepare and could bring forth just enough reinforcements to be on par with the Federation. But that's a gamble I'm willing to take.

I'm placing my confidence in Nash. While she may not directly contribute to the stats that are the core of battles, her tactical genius should allow her to pick and choose battles to our best advantages, while limiting the same to her most recent nemesis.


* Aside: Total combat is getting to be a bit of an outdated metric for fleet strength, because it both simultaneously overvalues and undervalues most current Starfleet ships: they tend to have high combat, science, and defense, yet have relatively low durability (slowly being fixed with ships like the Renaissance, but it's gonna take a while). Meanwhile, the Cardassian's primary warships are balanced in combat and durability but lack science.

Experimented with coming up with something better, like: (C + H + L + {if "frigate", S+D; else, (S+D)/2}) across all ships. It comes up with numbers of 907 for the Federation fleet and ~450 for the Cardassian+Konen fleet, but it's not really worth the extra complicatedness for a result that ends up mostly being the same.
 
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If we're going to have a HBZ, we'll have to find some way to garrison it with forces outside of the GBZ for the rest of this year, which I'm doubting is possible (haven't checked though). As for the merits of having a HBZ, enough has been said about that, so I won't drag it into the thread again.

You know, we've never gotten smacked for not meeting Total Defense numbers for a sector. There have been times a ship got damaged for a quarter and we panicked and were like, "Do we need to bring in a ship from somewhere else?" and nothing happened. I think if we established a border zone and were like, actually we aren't going to garrison it till 2319.Q1 because we're busy with thwacking Konen in the GBZ, it would probably be no big deal.
 
This is my first post on this quest so I have no intention of being a particularly active participant. It occurs to me that given the nagnitude of the offensive kicking ff in the GBZ in the mddle of 2318 that it might be advisable to have more concrete goals that causing the Cardasian Union a great deal of pain.

The GBZ is going to be continual thorn in the side untill matters get properly resolved so my recomendation would be to set the goal as doing sufficient damage that the Cardasian Union is forced to negoitiate a fixed frontier in the GBZ or completely removing all Cardasian assets in the GBZ. Simply flailing arround destroying a few vessels or and outposts will not be sufficient.
 
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Not sure an EC ship is subtle enough for that sort of mission in a heavily patrolled area. Although from a narrative sense it could be cool because the nearest one is probably Voshov under the command of Demora Sulu, former captain of the Republic.
Samyr Kanil and the Sarek say hi. S11 vs S3/4 for detection.

You know what the operational difference between a cloak and that level of science supremacy is? NOTHING. Captain Kanil snuck past Excelsiors and Oberths that knew to look for her when she was commanding T'Mir and ran rings around the Cardassians for a half-decade.

I'm fairly sure detection is an opposed science check, and Captain Kanil has to roll below average for detection to be mathematically possible. She gets a 6? No detection possible by Cardy ships other than Science Takaakis, assuming that a tie goes to the detector. She gets a 7, no detection period. She gets snake-eyes? Cardie science ships need an 8 to tie. Combat Takaaki's need to roll double sixes while Sarek gets snake-eyes just to tie.
 
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