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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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chriswriter90 said:
What's this talk of non-EC Ambassadors?

I thought the whole point of the Amby was to phase the Excelsiors out of EC duty?
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No, the point of the Ambassador was to replace the Excelsior as our first line explorer/capital ship.

We can't crew every last Amby with EC crew, and the Amby is very, very nice in conjuction with Mutual Support and Lone Ranger because an Amby in a border zone has very high odds of getting an event each and every quarter.
 
IF we want to pull EC crew off an Excelsior to climb aboard one of the first wave Ambassadors - these ships need crews in mid 2324 but I am considering any that ends their 5YM at any date in 2322-2324
(assumes dates/refit status on front page up to date)

Exploration Corps
- USS Courageous, Excelsior-A-class, Elite, C11 S9 H7 L9 P9 D8
--- Current mission runs 2320, next mission runs 2325 - does not fit the timing, and as an Elite, probably the last Excelsior we would want to hand over.
- USS Sarek, Excelsior-A-class, Veteran, C9 S9 H6 L8 P8 D6
--- Current mission runs 2322, could be taken if required.
- USS S'harien, Excelsior-class, Blooded, C8 S7 H5 L7 P7 D6
--- Current mission runs until 2319 - if no refit then possible crew source. If we refit her before sending out on another 5YM will no longer fit.
- USS Odyssey, Excelsior-class, Veteran, C8 S9 H6 L7 P9 D6
--- I believe she is currently undergoing refit (?), so next mission would end in 2324 - potential crew source.
- USS Atuin, Excelsior-class, Blooded, C7 S7 H6 L6 P7 D6
--- Current mission runs until 2319 - if no refit then possible crew source. If we refit her before sending out on another 5YM will no longer fit.
- USS Stargazer, Excelsior-class, Blooded, C7 S8 H5 L6 P7 D6
--- just a little out of range .....
- USS Voshov, Excelsior-class, Green, C6 S6 H4 L5 P6 D6
--- Current mission runs until 2320, probably refit after that, so doesn't fit the timing requirements.
- USS Tarrak, Excelsior-class, Blooded, C7 S7 H5 L6 P7 D6
--- Current mission runs until 2322

We have Opportunity sailing next year (I know we have one starting out, just not sure if I recalled the right name)? So 2319-2324 makes her a potential source.

No ships have a mission currently ending in 2323.
We can potential take Tarrak out of EC circulation after her current mission ends in 2322, refit and hand her over to general service.
Opportunity finishes up in 2324 - too late? QM decision.
If we don't refit S'harien and/or Atuin then they would end missions in 2324 - whether that is too late or not, is more a QM call. Realistically, we will probably refit them.
If we are prepared to lose a Veteran, then we could use Sarek (2322) or Odyssey (2324) as a crew source.

The only one I consider likely is Tarrak, will give us a three year gap of reduced Explorer Corp presence though.
 
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We're only going to pull from ships that are Green or Blooded most likely, reducing that further.
 
By 2323, currently Blooded Excelsiors should be able to hit Veteran, and currently Veteran ones should be able to hit Elite. That is, barring any kind of disaster with large amounts of crew loss.

E: I thought USS Opportunity is launching this year? So 2318-2323 which is almost just in time.
 
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pheonix89 said:
I have no intention of supporting phase-out of EC excelsiors past blooded anytime soon.

Green or blooded EC excelsiors, though, can be reasonably used as crew reserves for Ambies.
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Honestly, even a veteran Excelsior is a good trade for a green Ambassador. Remember that a newly veteran Explorer Corps Excelsior takes about TEN YEARS to reach Elite and level up. A green Explorer Corps ship levels up in more like two. So if you take the crew out of a veteran Excelsior-A and put them in a green Ambassador, you get little or no reduction in performance... and within a couple of years, you're getting better performance than you would if you left them in place.

With an elite Excelsior-A crew, assuming they still form a green Ambassador crew... you get a -1 to stats in some categories, but within a few years things are back to normal, and within 5-10 years you're performing better on the Ambassador than you ever could have in an Excelsior.

charysa said:
By 2323, currently Blooded Excelsiors should be able to hit Veteran, and currently Veteran ones should be able to hit Elite. That is, barring any kind of disaster with large amounts of crew loss.
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Veteran ships do not reliably hit Elite within five years. It seems to take more like ten. I suspect that 'under the hood,' the mechanic is something like "the first ten events take you to Blooded, the next twenty take you to Veteran, and the forty after that take you to Elite."

This dovetails nicely with the fact that newly launched Explorer Corps ships hit Blooded about halfway through their five year missions, that our regular fleet ships hitting Blooded as a result of event successes do so at around the tenth event, and that Enterprise took two five-year missions under Nash ka'Sharren with NO crew casualties to hit Elite.

Courageous would still be Veteran if not for the infusion of crew from the Enterprise. Sarek is still Veteran as she has been ever since game start, despite completing THREE successful five-year missions... probably because she keeps losing crew to random events once in a while. Expect her to level up soon, but the fact that she hasn't leveled up yet is a reminder of how long it can take to hit Elite.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
That's why I think plans to retire the Excelsior and replace them with Ambassadors are bad plans. We desperately need both in the EC itself.
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You do realize that isn't a choice right? The whole reason this discussion started is because we can build Ambassadors faster then we can crew them. The number of ships in the EC is, and always has been, limited by the amount of EC crew we have.

There is no choice that allows us to keep all our Excelsiors in the EC and put all our new Ambassadors into the EC since there just isn't enough crew. The choice we have to make is whether the performance boost of an Ambassador is worth giving up the veterancy on an existing Excelsior by transferring the crew across. If it is then we lose one EC Excelsior and gain one EX Ambassador, no change in EC ship numbers, if it isn't we simply gain a garrison Ambassador, no change in EC ship numbers.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Courageous would still be Veteran if not for the infusion of crew from the Enterprise. Sarek is still Veteran as she has been ever since game start, despite completing THREE successful five-year missions... probably because she keeps losing crew to random events once in a while. Expect her to level up soon, but the fact that she hasn't leveled up yet is a reminder of how long it can take to hit Elite.
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The fact that Sarek has been Veteran for so long now is why I figured it would make Elite in the next few years, barring another incidence of significant crew loss.
 
CeBrudras said:
How about, instead of giving us all EC crew back as soon as the ship goes into regular service, we just get it as a trickle? Like, for the next X Years we get +(crew in Excelsior/X) EC crew per year and -(crew in Excelsior/X) regular crew to simulate a slow crew exchange that allows the transfer of knowledge.
Would be a bit more effort mechanically, but it is pretty intuitive.
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So, is my solution just too "have my cake and eat it too"-ey or are you people worried about how bothersome keeping track of the modifiers would be?
The EC crew temporarily serving on regular duty until they feel like they have satisfactorily teached the next generation how to properly treat the ship they have grown to love over the years sounds very fitting narratively and it does at least two of the three things we want. We can still fill the EC with Ambassador and ships with big name recognition like the Sarek dont suddenly lose their badassness.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
we're not going to have trouble keeping up full Ambassador production on every berth in the Federation capable of building the new ships.
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2318 Snakepit Challenge Accepted.

Simon_Jester said:
by that time (c. 2330) we can reasonably expect that our enemies will be deploying frontline heavy cruisers in considerable numbers, that have statlines competitive with or superior to that of the Excelsior-A. While we will still be able to reasonably argue that the Excelsiors are capital ships, we will not be able to argue that they are first-rates, and our doctrines rely heavily on being able to overmatch our enemies in first-rate heavy ships.
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By the 2330 we should be about to starting our own wave of Heavy cruisers (and have 2mt berths so it doesn't effect frigate production). That said, Excelsior-As (or B) would be very welcome on our border zones.

pheonix89 said:
We can't crew every last Amby with EC crew.
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Watch us.

Simon_Jester said:
With an elite Excelsior-A crew, assuming they still form a green Ambassador crew...
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Any word on this? doesn't seem likely, an elite crew transferred from a different ship class suddenly becomes no better then graduates fresh from the academy.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
@AKuz that is lovely. I like the... eerily on-message... character of the Horizon personnel, the total lack of unguarded moments, except of course for the deliberately, artfully unguarded moments. And how all these different species have prettied-up versions of their history for us, ready to go... Including the Tauni, which gives us a comparison point for how off-base some of the other stories MIGHT be.

Leslie:

"I am pretty sure the Harmony would have no place for me."

[grunts]

We have a fairly high degree of assurance she'll be available for quite some time to come. She is nowhere near the age at which she'd be likely to superannuate out of a promotion, and most captains remain at the rank of captain for significantly more than five years, whereas Zhang only has three years' seniority in grade.
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Alternatively, the Harmony is actually those mind worms from TNG or something similar.
 
Say those info-glasses, you sure they're not loaded with Harmony spywares or contains backdoors for their hackers?
Maybe that's the reason why they let them go, confident that the Tauni will be defeated easily and as an example to any other rebellion since Tauni rely on their tech.
 
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UberJJK said:
You do realize that isn't a choice right? The whole reason this discussion started is because we can build Ambassadors faster then we can crew them. The number of ships in the EC is, and always has been, limited by the amount of EC crew we have.

There is no choice that allows us to keep all our Excelsiors in the EC and put all our new Ambassadors into the EC since there just isn't enough crew. The choice we have to make is whether the performance boost of an Ambassador is worth giving up the veterancy on an existing Excelsior by transferring the crew across. If it is then we lose one EC Excelsior and gain one EX Ambassador, no change in EC ship numbers, if it isn't we simply gain a garrison Ambassador, no change in EC ship numbers.
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Not true. The crew cost increase means that in theoretical terms, it's better to keep an Excelsior-A in action, to the tune of a 25% increase in the efficiency of those crew units. In practical terms, what that means is that the performance boost is almost never worth transferring crew, because what matters to me is EC count over EC quality. And the EC count will increase sooner if we save up that extra 1/2/1 crew and use it on a later Ambassador while keeping the Excelsior-A in service.

Also means doing a /lot/ more EC recruitment drives, since the +12 EC crew from that is far more efficient than any other method we have of increasing EC numbers. For example, if we performed one single EC drive in any of the years from 2318 through 2324 we could crew 3 of the 5-build with EC instead of two. If we performed three drives in those seven years, say, 2319, 2321, and 2323, we could crew 4 of the 5. Four drives would let us hit 5/5. Five drives would put us at 5/5 and in good stead for the next two Ambassadors. Five drives and then two more in 2326 and 2327 would let us put every single scheduled Ambassador into the EC. The total PP cost would be about 200 to 250 pp to add two entire fronts worth of ships to the EC, almost doubling the size of the corps. That's not even half the PP we spend in a single year these days, and it's spread out over 8 years.

pheonix89 said:
We can't crew every last Amby with EC crew
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So yes, we can actually do this, if we're willing to invest in it.
 
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Counterpoint on expanding the Explorer Corps, regardless of whether crewed by Excelsiors or Ambassadors: you think Oneiros is having enough trouble writing logs for all the existing FYMs and sector events while trying to keep all the captains memorable? I fear Oneiros will prune via Qute or other OCP to preserve his creative sanity :V


Seriously, I'm onboard with using up EC recruitment drives to ramp up Ambassador FYMs. Not only do they increase total fleet-wide crew by 2/2/2 (about half of a Rennie) for just 25pp, FYMs by far provide the most economical utility of an explorer during peacetime.

Ballparking with the shipbuild planning spreadsheet... I'm expecting 6 more consecutive ratifications following the current annual tempo, and assuming any relevant research techs would arrive too late ([T4] 2330s Long-Term Care, [T3] Frontier Service Training, [T3] Arsenal of Liberty), and assuming we get really lucky with casualties...

We could crew the first two Amby prototypes and first wave of 5 Ambys all with EC crew with just 3 EC recruitment drives by the 2324 snakepit, but it cuts its really close. Obviously, crew casualties make it worse, EC ship losses make it "better", and earlier ratifications help. Or just ensure 4 EC recruitment drives, and we're almost guaranteed to be able to crew all 7 initial Ambys without needing to transfer any crew from EC Excelsiors.
 
SakSak said:
Well, this is true in the sense that the Ambassadors were designed to be best we got at literally everything. Performance and ability above all else. Of course they're going to excel in regular duties.

But the point is we will never have an insane number of them, because they cost so damn much in terms of resources, yard space, and crew.

So we need to maximise their utility.
Excelsior-As are pretty much enough as they are for regular sector duties. They not as good as Ambassadors, no, that's the whole point of us designing the Ambassadors as successors to the Excelsior line. But I'd say Excelsior-As are good enough.

But the Explorers have events every quarter. We know there is heavy utilization for top of the line ships in the Explorer Corp. That's the whole point of Explorer Corp: Boldly go where no man has gone before, analyze the negative space wedgie, kick a wannabe god in the balls if the situation calls for it, establish First Contact with a cryptic alien, and leave the regular duties to other vessels.

Using Excelsior-As as sector flagships is a good idea, because we have a lot of them, and they don't cost as much as Ambassadors, while they're still practically just as good for 99% of the situations you're likely to meet inside Federation borders. Whereas Ambassadors, in order to be justifiable in terms of the costs, pretty much need to be constantly under maximum utilization; and that's Explorer Corp. At least to begin with: once eventually we are producing the successors to the Ambassador class, then we're likely to begin moving our existing Ambassadors to regular duties, because then we'll have an even better ship for our people on the cutting edge of exploration and difficult situations.

The point is this. Explorer Corp has the most events, and the way their events go (such as when contacting alien species) can have drastic impact on the whole Federation for years to come. We get the most bang for our buck by using our best vessels there. Whereas with regular duties and garrisons, we get events more rarely and there are a lot of sectors we need to cover, so a vessel that is slightly cheaper and more numerous while still being good enough in event response is a more optimal situation.
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. The minute someone starts saying GOOD ENOUGH in the context of what we're dealing with; Open Warfare in the GBZ, possible actual war looming with Cardassia, The Horizon(a power more technologically advanced than us) starting to nip at our associates and members, and Klingons and Romulans just 'next door'; is the minute that person needs something like the Borg to turn those words to ash... While I was initially in favor of the idea of Ambassadors for the EC, this kind of thought train I've been seeing has pretty much broken the idea for me. I'm not even against the idea of using the Excelsior as our Heavy Cruiser, god knows we need it now, with the Cardassian ship refits and the Horizon. But if we CAN, we absolutely should phase in the Ambassador as Sector Flagships....at least in the BZs and whoever boarders the Horizon right now. I'm not even saying Excelsiors should stay in the EC, we absolutely phase them out. I HATE that 'we should do X because we have a lot of them/their cheaper.' Because we're not some wartorn 3rd World Power, we're the Federation. If we can actually crew and build Ambassadors enough to have some Non-EC ones, there is absolutely NO REASON to not have some of the more volatile Zones and Sectors have them as Sector Flagships. The Explorer Corps is awesome and gives us a lot of stuffs, but it is ultimately a secondary concern compared to actually defending the Federation and it's Associate Members/Allies.
 
MS-21H 'Hawke' said:
. The minute someone starts saying GOOD ENOUGH in the context of what we're dealing with; Open Warfare in the GBZ, possible actual war looming with Cardassia, The Horizon(a power more technologically advanced than us) starting to nip at our associates and members, and Klingons and Romulans just 'next door'; is the minute that person needs something like the Borg to turn those words to ash... While I was initially in favor of the idea of Ambassadors for the EC, this kind of thought train I've been seeing has pretty much broken the idea for me. I'm not even against the idea of using the Excelsior as our Heavy Cruiser, god knows we need it now, with the Cardassian ship refits and the Horizon. But if we CAN, we absolutely should phase in the Ambassador as Sector Flagships....at least in the BZs and whoever boarders the Horizon right now. I'm not even saying Excelsiors should stay in the EC, we absolutely phase them out. I HATE that 'we should do X because we have a lot of them/their cheaper.' Because we're not some wartorn 3rd World Power, we're the Federation. If we can actually crew and build Ambassadors enough to have some Non-EC ones, there is absolutely NO REASON to not have some of the more volatile Zones and Sectors have them as Sector Flagships. The Explorer Corps is awesome and gives us a lot of stuffs, but it is ultimately a secondary concern compared to actually defending the Federation and it's Associate Members/Allies.
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I disagree with pretty much every word. The quantity of quality ships, which includes Excelsiors, is the primary thing we are struggling with, and the Explorer Corps IS OUR PRIMARY LINE OF DEFENSE far far far MORE SO than the regular sector and border zone garrison. Putting the Ambassador into the regular fleet where we don't even see events in every BZ each year is a horrific, malignant waste. Each ship will contribute literally an order of magnitude more in the Explorer Corps than it does in the regular fleet.
 
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