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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Nervos Belli said:
I'd be cool with that if we designed a garrison frigate to supplement it. Like a C3 S5 P5 would make a nice replacement for the Centaur.
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That's technically doable, but it won't be a decent combatant (C3 H2 L4 is subpar now, let alone in 15 years) and it will be as or more expensive than the Kepler. A better option is the general frigate that has been kicked around, which is only mildly more expensive than the Miranda but has C4 S4 H3 L5 P4 D4 for 90/60 cost and 2/3/3 crewing. That is something that can roll with a Jaldun or Takaaki, but also is relatively inexpensive, so it can be built as part of a Hi-Lo mix (Keplers for best stats Garrison detail and the scout phase of battle as a much reduced secondary mission, New Generalist as a cheaper option that can also fight almost as well as a Rennie).

IMO the Kepler should be a good generalist with P5. It is well placed to be our general response ship and shouldn't need to be supplemented except in the combat role or for High DC missions. Cutting down it's P score makes it less useful since there will need to be alternatives available for the Presence mission, and only Explorers have P5+.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
It's also possible we might want to refit the Miranda again, so long as we're considering all our options.
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Do we have a sheet Miranda-A? I did a quick one with mostly T-1/T0 parts, but it would be nice if we had one that was official to determine how feasible that is. Still, I have my doubts that even with Isolinear/Burst/Arrays and T3 techs that we could do any better than +1C/L unless the "refit" was a complete gut job. I'd rather grab one of the 80/50 escorts and at least have H4 than try to polish a turd.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
It's also possible we might want to refit the Miranda again, so long as we're considering all our options.
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Well, canon-wise Mirandas are still wide spread at the time of the Dominion War. But as a counter, so are Soyuz class vessels and that isn't true in this verse.

Maybe will get an adequate Miranda-B refit option, and a superior new design, so can upgrade the existing but the new builds will be something else.
 
With the proposed increases to reserved auxiliary yard space, I'd like to lay out some thoughts for everyone.
(Note:This is a preview of steady state construction over the coming decade, not the ongoing surge to catch up.)
First, let's describe the berths that will be available once yard construction is completed.
Armakia will have 5x1mt berths.
Ferasa will have 1x2mt and 4x1mt.
In the time that is no longer, we were informed that Development would like to see a Freighter and two Cargo Ships under production at any one time minimum. Let's reserve those three berths out of Ferasa, so the President can see we are doing something easily.
Next, we committed to building at least 10 hospital ships. Let's allow Medical three more berths at Armakia because medicine waits for no sapient, not even simple country doctors.
This leaves us at
Armakia: 2x1mt available.
Ferasa: 1x2mt and 1x1mt available.

Next, lots of us want more engineering groups. An engineering group is: 2 engineering ships, 2 freighters (or 1 superfreighter) and 3 cargo ships. We can build the 2 engineering ships and three cargo ships in two berths over 6 years. For easy book keeping, we'll use the ones at Armakia. And a superfreighter every four years out of the large berth at Ferasa.

Those of you paying attention will notice that this gives us an excess of a superfreighter every twelve years. After we swap the existing engineering teams to a single superfreighter (and we have 3 teams right now, with one superfreighter under construction already. I think we'll be OK for the decade mentioned here. And I would be deeply surprised if we can 't find something to do with a superfreighter every dozen years going forward.)

That leaves us with...
Ferasa: 1x1mt available.
This berth, and any free space we have in the general berths, gets to handle everyone else's production. Colony command, prospectors, combat losses... Everything.
Until the initial rush of hospital ships is out anyway. I expect that we're going to want more than ten eventually, but even dialing it down to paired builds means a doubling in available berths for everyone else.

This conclude steady state auxiliary production with Noca, please don't try and catch up on the small cargo capacity with that last free berth and remember to tip your ensign.
 
lbmaian said:
edit: This does include the SF 3mt berth I objected to previously, but as I said before, I'm fine with it for narrative reasons - I just didn't think it was urgent to get this year. More so, getting both a Gaen and Ferasa shipyard would increase the industrial loop route penalty from 2x to 2.2x, which is starting to be more than "negligible".
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The good news is, the Ferasa Yard will let us churn out so many freighters that in relatively short order, the problem will be solved.

Goat said:
Well, canon-wise Mirandas are still wide spread at the time of the Dominion War. But as a counter, so are Soyuz class vessels and that isn't true in this verse
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Leslie:

"Well, there's always the Bozeman- hell, the Lion reappeared, who says she can't do it too?"

[laughs]

"But I kid. More seriously, Starfleet actually built a fair number of the little beasties back in the day. Once upon a time, those ships were top of the line escorts that could stand off a Klingon raptor or spit in the eye of a Yrillian privateer flagship. Of course, once upon a time, I was knee-high to a grasshopper and playing with alphabet blocks. Right around the same time, too, come to think of it."

"Anyway. Don't assume we don't have a few of 'em in mothballs, like we tried to do with the Connies. I can't think of a situation nasty enough to make it worthwhile to break them out of storage, but if we were ever that desperate, we could try."
 
How do We go about designing the Miranda-B refit thing. Its probably high time we did it anyway since the Miranda-A refit isn't up to snuff anymore.
 
lbmaian said:
Excelsior-As are the best event response ships at twice the cost of any other ship (compared to our next most expensive ship the Rennie, it's 2.3x BR, 2x SR, 2x O, 1x E, 1.67x T, 1.33x build time, requires 2.5+ mt berths).

Depending on how we're doing on event response overall and how well our military/defense campaigns like GBZ are working out, I may be in favor of replacing an Excelsior-A build with cruisers, or simply saving the cost to help build a superior Ambassador.


This is true, but it's also negligible right now. 2.1x vs 2x route penalty in the industrial loop is unlikely to make a difference - at most a single cargo ship required a bit sooner. It's something to be worried about long-term, but that can be addressed in the long-term as well.
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I really see explorers being built in systems with Heavy Industry. Right now in Sol for parallel or serial builds an Excelsior-A takes 2.75 years, a Renaissance takes 2.25 years so the time factor is different. Also the needing 2.5mt+ berths is less of a factor as it constrains how many we can build at a time. And we should not need to save, as the shipyard build sheet has 4 Ambassadors penciled in with resource that could fit a 5th. I don't think there is a lot of resource increases counted in the sheet predictions either but I will have to double check that. Either way we are making a lot of resources each year so saving resources in 2319 for 3 years down the line does not seem to be needed.

As for the cargo ship for increased multiplier, I am going to have to check what increases the base number that is being multiplied but that should be growing simply due to increased projects (more mines, more member worlds, more shipyards, starbases and outposts needing material) so some of that is going to increase the base number.
 
[X][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Intelligence and EC Reorg


[X][AMB] Announce new Starfleet Ambition: Maintain a strong Forward Defense

Both options were tempting, but given circumstances, I think defense is marginally more important.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Briefvoice on Jul 21, 2017 at 6:28 PM, finished with 314 posts and 42 votes.
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[X][TECH] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute (Sk 3, Starbases / Minerals)

[X][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg

Tiebreaker and confirming.
 
Joshrand1982 said:
How do We go about designing the Miranda-B refit thing. Its probably high time we did it anyway since the Miranda-A refit isn't up to snuff anymore.
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We JUST DID the MIranda-A refits. Given how physically small and cheap the Mirandas are to build, they're about as good as they're going to get. A higher-performance frigate (which could be done) would be a more expensive frigate, as is the case with the Centaur-A.

Remember these things.
 
To be honest, for sheer spamability, the Miranda might always be with us. Any new combat frigate might be better off as a supplement rather than replacement, if we can sell that to the Council.
 
nocarename said:
This conclude steady state auxiliary production with Noca, please don't try and catch up on the small cargo capacity with that last free berth and remember to tip your ensign
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We might be well served adding 1 more berth next year so we have 2 free. That would let us expand miscellaneous Auxiliaries more effectively, and it's cheap at 8pp.

Joshrand1982 said:
How do We go about designing the Miranda-B refit thing. Its probably high time we did it anyway since the Miranda-A refit isn't up to snuff anymore.
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We've only had the refit since 2312, although it's been available since 2304. I doubt we're getting a B option until 2327, since a lot of gamechanging techs will be available then. Even then I have my sincere doubts we can manage even just +1 C/L/D, and it will likely require replacement of the Nacelles, wholesale replacement of the weapons and shield generators, and likely significant power system upgrades along with wholesale rearranging of the interior spaces. An expensive refit in other words.

Night said:
To be honest, for sheer spamability, the Miranda might always be with us. Any new combat frigate might be better off as a supplement rather than replacement, if we can sell that to the Council.
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Eh... *Waggles hand* we can do +1 C/S, +2 H/L/D over the Miranda-A for +20 br, +5sr, +1E. That's not very much more expensive. We just aren't doing it on a 600kt frame, at least very easily. And we sure aren't doing it on a Miranda frame. But there are multiple Frigates on the sheet that are more efficient than the Miranda.
 
Night said:
To be honest, for sheer spamability, the Miranda might always be with us. Any new combat frigate might be better off as a supplement rather than replacement, if we can sell that to the Council.
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Do you suppose then that Starfleet in the Dominion War may have been new-building Mirandas as a direct Attack Ship counter, as part of a high-low mix with the insanely high SR cost Defiant?
 
KlavoHunter said:
Do you suppose then that Starfleet in the Dominion War may have been new-building Mirandas as a direct Attack Ship counter, as part of a high-low mix with the insanely high SR cost Defiant?
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It's quite possible, though I suspect they were actually going full tilt on every minor yard in the Federation with Mirandas while UP and San Fran slammed out Defiants as fast as possible. Defiants are escorts in name only, realistically they're heavy hitters and shipkillers in their own right and not screening vessels. Mirandas on the other hand are exactly the sort of ships that are there to screen Starfleet's numerous heavies and throw themselves on incoming torpedo volleys or ramming attacks.

This is their utility and why larger and more capable designs just aren't quite the same. They're not the closest thing to disposable that we have.
 
Night said:
It's quite possible, though I suspect they were actually going full tilt on every minor yard in the Federation with Mirandas while UP and San Fran slammed out Defiants as fast as possible. Defiants are escorts in name only, realistically they're heavy hitters and shipkillers in their own right and not screening vessels. Mirandas on the other hand are exactly the sort of ships that are there to screen Starfleet's numerous heavies and throw themselves on incoming torpedo volleys or ramming attacks.

This is their utility and why larger and more capable designs just aren't quite the same. They're not the closest thing to disposable that we have.
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I will note that under the cost metrics we have available (which are almost certainly obsolete and irrelevant in the context of the Defiant-class anyway)... That would be the Saber-class, actually.

Night said:
To be honest, for sheer spamability, the Miranda might always be with us. Any new combat frigate might be better off as a supplement rather than replacement, if we can sell that to the Council.
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Hm. Put this way, we might want the design to stay with us, but its' really NOT a good frigate for our purposes, because Oneiros repeatedly retconned the combat engine until Science was a critical core stat for a well-balanced frigate that could do its job in the Skirmishing/Minesweeping/Whatevs phase of combat.

Miranda-As have lots of firepower for a pitched battle under any of the older iterations of the combat engine and were (we noted at the time), good for war. Now, they leave a lot to be desired. Not mainly because of poor Combat/Hull/Shield stats although that is admittedly a factor, but because of low Science/Defense, which retroactively matter far more in battle now than they did when the ships were offered to us as a design.
 
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