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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Chaos Blade said:
Granted, but as you also demonstrated, the PP price started going down for the first tranche year after year. so, doing the pre-elim work soonish would net us that advantage.
So, as an example, let's say we take the option next snakepit, and go for the 1st stage 3-5 years afterwards or thereabouts and, hell, we might get additional perks down the line as well.
Or we could work some council deal about it as well, which would also help us lower the cost.

Mind you, I don't feel like taking the option now, but the pre-elim work might be worth taking soonish rather than latter
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If we didn't have a very large number of other projects, and if it weren't for the vast number of berths we'd have to buy to make a second heavy yard pay for itself, and no obvious way to procure the resources and crew it would take to make good use of the extra berths in a timely manner... I might consider agreeing.
 
Simon_Jester said:
If we didn't have a very large number of other projects, and if it weren't for the vast number of berths we'd have to buy to make a second heavy yard pay for itself, and no obvious way to procure the resources and crew it would take to make good use of the extra berths in a timely manner... I might consider agreeing.
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Well, I am anticipating an income of 135 or so, 50 from completing our ambition, 10 from 2 more Excelsior finishing, 25 from a ratification puts us at 220 before events, more if the goals count for next snakepit. And I only want to add a few 1mt berths next time for aux builds including hospital ships. If so we may be able to spare the 75pp for it and then see what the costs or additional requirements are the following snakepit.
 
Chaos Blade said:
Granted, but as you also demonstrated, the PP price started going down for the first tranche year after year. so, doing the pre-elim work soonish would net us that advantage.
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PP prices started going down because Oneiros was still working on the system. Remember those are the very first three snakepits. In fact over those three years the cost of berths in general went down. I highly doubt they would go down if we waited after starting preparations now that Oneiros has the system worked out.
 
And now, the plan comparison! :)

@Forgothrax (only voter as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – No Expensive Shipyards

Request focused Diplomacy on [Ashidi], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [Sydraxians], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [Lamarck], 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Xenopsychology]
Request Mining Colony at Fornost VII-19, 8pp, 40 (45) br/yr, 8 turns
Request Mining Colony at 2 Curacao VII, 8pp, 20 (30) sr/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Kappa Tau, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Proxima Eridani, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Academy Development, 45pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
Request development of Utopia Planitia, 28pp, (4 turns, gain 1 3mt, 1 1mt berth)
Request Cruiser berth at Utopia Planitia, 11pp (6 turns, gain new 2m t berth) [Can take multiple times, +5pp per subsequent build]
Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 33pp (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
Request new Starbase I [Licori Border Zone] 25pp
Reorganise Starfleet Engineering Command to be a separate reporting Command that reports directly to Commander, Starfleet, 60pp
Reorganise a Starfleet Command from a Rear Admiral position to a Vice Admiral position. (25pp for Explorer Corps.)
Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1 Intel report for powers on that border. (Klingon Border Zone), 20pp
Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Gathering, 70pp (Gain +1 Intel Report per year)

@AlphaDelta (4 votes as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Maximum Diplomacy, Maximum Colonies, Maximum Tech Teams, Some Berths, Slow Reorganization (406 pp)

Request focused Diplomacy on [Ashidi], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [Sydraxians], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [PLACEHOLDER], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [Lamarck], 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Computers]
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Sensors/Shields]
Request Mining Colony at 2 Curacao, 8pp, 20 (30) sr/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Fornost VII-19, 8pp, 40 (45) br/yr, 8 turns
Request Mining Colony at Kappa Tau, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Proxima Eridani, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Academy Development, 45pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
Request development of Utopia Planitia, 28pp, (4 turns, gain 1 3mt, 1 1mt berth)
Request Cruiser berth at Utopia Planitia, 11pp (6 turns, gain new 2m t berth)
Request Excelsior berth at a San Francisco Fleet Yards, 32pp (6 turns, gain new 3m t berth)
Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 33pp (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
Request new Starbase I [Licori Border Zone] 25pp
Reorganise Starfleet Engineering Command, 60pp

@Briefvoice (7 voters as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg

Request focused Diplomacy on [Ashidi], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [Sydraxians], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [Lamarck], 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Xenopsychology]
Request Mining Colony at 2 Curacao VII, 8pp, 20 (30) sr/yr, 4 turns
Request Academy Development, 45pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
Request development of Utopia Planitia, 28pp, (4 turns, gain 1 3mt, 1 1mt berth)
Request Cruiser berth at Utopia Planitia, 11pp (6 turns, gain new 2m t berth)
Request Excelsior berth at a San Francisco Fleet Yards, 32pp (6 turns, gain new 3m t berth)
Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 33pp (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
Request new Starbase I [Licori Border Zone] 25pp
Reorganise Starfleet Engineering Command, 60pp
Reorganise [Medical] to a Vice Admiral position. Pick one: 30pp for Medical
Reorganise [Explorer Corps] to a Vice Admiral position. Pick one: 25pp for Explorer Corps.
Deploy Improved Listening Posts to Klingon Border Zone, 20pp

@SynchronizedWritersBlock (15 Voters as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Intelligence and EC Reorg

Request focused Diplomacy on [Ashidi], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [Sydraxians], 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Xenopsychology]
Request Mining Colony at Fornost VII-19, 8pp, 40 (45) br/yr, 8 turns
Request Mining Colony at 2 Curacao VII, 8pp, 20 (30) sr/yr, 4 turns
Request Academy Development, 45pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
Request development of Utopia Planitia, 28pp, (4 turns, gain 1 3mt, 1 1mt berth)
Request Cruiser berth at Utopia Planitia, 11pp (6 turns, gain new 2m t berth)
Request Excelsior berth at a San Francisco Fleet Yards, 32pp (6 turns, gain new 3m t berth)
Request new Shipyard at Amarkia, 33pp (12 turns, 1 3mt Berth, 1 1mt Berth)
Reorganise Starfleet Engineering Command, 60pp
Reorganise [Explorer Corps] from a Rear Admiral position to a Vice Admiral position.
Deploy Improved Listening Posts to Klingon Border Zone, 20pp
Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Gathering, 70pp (Gain +1 Intel Report per year)

Okay, now I left out plan total costs, but will put them in next time. Now, we have four plans. They all share certain common features. Everyone agrees on talking to the Ashidi and Sydraxians (total cost 40pp). Everyone agrees on the creation of a Starfleet military yard at Amarkia (33pp), and on building one, two, and three-megaton berths at Utopia Planitia (total cost 39pp). Everyone supports reorganizing Starfleet Engineering (60pp), and further expansion of the Academy (45pp). Everyone agrees on the special resource mining colony at Curacao (8pp).

This adds up to 225pp worth of total, unambiguous agreement among our noble plan-crafters, so go team!

I would like to note that @AlphaDelta may want to either actually get around to selecting a species to focus diplomacy on, since we have not yet met any race known as the PLACEHOLDER... Or possibly just delete that line and replace it with 20pp of other things. ;)

@Forgothrax (only voter as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – No Expensive Shipyards, COST 410pp

Request focused Diplomacy on [Lamarck], 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Xenopsychology]
Request Mining Colony at Fornost VII-19, 8pp, 40 (45) br/yr, 8 turns
Request Mining Colony at Kappa Tau, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Proxima Eridani, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request new Starbase I [Licori Border Zone] 25pp
Reorganise a Starfleet Command from a Rear Admiral position to a Vice Admiral position. (25pp for Explorer Corps.)
Deploy Improved Listening Posts to a Border Zone to gain a 25% chance of generating +1 Intel report for powers on that border. (Klingon Border Zone), 20pp
Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Gathering, 70pp (Gain +1 Intel Report per year)

@AlphaDelta (4 votes as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Maximum Diplomacy, Maximum Colonies, Maximum Tech Teams, Some Berths, Slow Reorganization (406 pp), COST 406pp

Request focused Diplomacy on [PLACEHOLDER], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [Lamarck], 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Computers]
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Sensors/Shields]
Request Mining Colony at Fornost VII-19, 8pp, 40 (45) br/yr, 8 turns
Request Mining Colony at Kappa Tau, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Proxima Eridani, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Excelsior berth at a San Francisco Fleet Yards, 32pp (6 turns, gain new 3m t berth)
Request new Starbase I [Licori Border Zone] 25pp

@Briefvoice (7 voters as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg, COST 407pp

Request focused Diplomacy on [Lamarck], 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Xenopsychology]
Request Excelsior berth at a San Francisco Fleet Yards, 32pp (6 turns, gain new 3m t berth)
Request new Starbase I [Licori Border Zone] 25pp
Reorganise [Medical] to a Vice Admiral position. Pick one: 30pp for Medical
Reorganise [Explorer Corps] to a Vice Admiral position. Pick one: 25pp for Explorer Corps.
Deploy Improved Listening Posts to Klingon Border Zone, 20pp

@SynchronizedWritersBlock (15 Voters as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Intelligence and EC Reorg, COST 410pp

Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Xenopsychology]
Request Mining Colony at Fornost VII-19, 8pp, 40 (45) br/yr, 8 turns
Request Excelsior berth at a San Francisco Fleet Yards, 32pp (6 turns, gain new 3m t berth)
Reorganise [Explorer Corps] from a Rear Admiral position to a Vice Admiral position.
Deploy Improved Listening Posts to Klingon Border Zone, 20pp
Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Gathering, 70pp (Gain +1 Intel Report per year)

Okay. Let's look at the differences among the plans. @Forgothrax , uniquely, does not want the 32pp explorer berth at San Francisco Fleet Yards. This is perhaps understandable. It's expensive.

The given reason for putting a berth there, based on others' reasoning, is to enable San Francisco Yards to carry out parallel builds on explorers. This is a thing that can only be done in a yard in Sol system, now that Chen has moved on from her position at Shipyard Operations. Thus, while the new explorer berth is expensive, it not only increases explorer production capability in Sol as a whole, it makes the existing explorer berth at San Francisco (the one that Starfleet has been using ever since the early 2280s) more efficient.

Personally, I support this choice, so with a regretful nod to Forgothrax, I'm going to drop his plan and compare the other three. Unfortunately, time prevents me from doing more than simply listing the plans of @SynchronizedWritersBlock , @Briefvoice , and @AlphaDelta in such a way as to highlight the differences between them. Farewell, for now!

@AlphaDelta (4 votes as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Maximum Diplomacy, Maximum Colonies, Maximum Tech Teams, Some Berths, Slow Reorganization (406 pp), COST 406pp

Request focused Diplomacy on [PLACEHOLDER], 20pp
Request focused Diplomacy on [Lamarck], 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Computers]
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Sensors/Shields]
Request Mining Colony at Fornost VII-19, 8pp, 40 (45) br/yr, 8 turns
Request Mining Colony at Kappa Tau, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request Mining Colony at Proxima Eridani, 8pp, 15 (20) br/yr, 4 turns
Request new Starbase I [Licori Border Zone] 25pp

@Briefvoice (7 voters as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg, COST 407pp

Request focused Diplomacy on [Lamarck], 20pp
Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Xenopsychology]
Request new Starbase I [Licori Border Zone] 25pp
Reorganise [Medical] to a Vice Admiral position. Pick one: 30pp for Medical
Reorganise [Explorer Corps] to a Vice Admiral position. Pick one: 25pp for Explorer Corps.
Deploy Improved Listening Posts to Klingon Border Zone, 20pp

@SynchronizedWritersBlock (15 Voters as of this writing)
[][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Intelligence and EC Reorg, COST 410pp

Request new Tech Team to be added to your Ship Design Bureau, 30pp [Foreign Analysis/Xenopsychology]
Request Mining Colony at Fornost VII-19, 8pp, 40 (45) br/yr, 8 turns
Reorganise [Explorer Corps] from a Rear Admiral position to a Vice Admiral position.
Deploy Improved Listening Posts to Klingon Border Zone, 20pp
Acquire additional resources for Starfleet Intelligence Gathering, 70pp (Gain +1 Intel Report per year)
 
UberJJK said:
PP prices started going down because Oneiros was still working on the system. Remember those are the very first three snakepits. In fact over those three years the cost of berths in general went down. I highly doubt they would go down if we waited after starting preparations now that Oneiros has the system worked out.
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but on a proyect this scale, it does make a certain ammount of sense for the pp to go down, since there are going to be other interested parties in seeing such a thing happen, another UP would be an immense sign of prestige for the host planet, it would reshape the tradelanes and would give the representatives additional clout in the council. so while you could see it as Oneiros finetuning the system, it can be given a more interesting explanation.
Additionally, the pp cost could be different than UP, since it is less of a trailblazer or bring in additional benefits depending on the where it is done.
The relatively high pp cost for this first step could be, in part, about approaching different factions and planets to see which are suitable and willing.
 
TBH I have reservations with the current plans on offer so far. I'm willing to sacrifice the 3mt SF berth in favor of just taking advantage of HIP serial build bonuses, I'm not totally onboard with investing 90pp on intel, I don't think the LBZ Starbase is a good idea yet for reasons of logistics and already existing outposts/sensors, and I do like the idea of a Vice Admiral position for Starfleet Medical.

Problem is, I share Nix's frustration that I'm not sure what else to spend pp on.

UP-style shipyard preparation is the next tempting big ticket item, but even though it has a lead time of 4 years 1 year (plus more for actual shipyard construction), it's not urgent. I mean, I find the idea of an Amarkian UP-style shipyard romantic, but that's not worth the huge delay and 75+ pp cost or holding off on a normal Amarkian shipyard this year.
edit: I misinterpreted "turns" as "years" - it means "quarters"

Briefvoice said:
In retrospect, I am very glad we limited what technology we handed over to the Tauni. We get talking about leaks to the Cardassians, but the Horizon is the hot new threat. And do you really think they don't still have moles and secret loyalists among the Tauni willing to report back on our ship designs?

Yeah, Patrollers and Constellation-As. That what we build, Horizon. Ignore the Excelsiors behind the curtain.
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If we were REALLY worried about intel leaks, we wouldn't have shared the latest refit designs.
- Constellation-A/Patroller-A likely have modern sensor tech that Romulans would be interested in.
- Constitution-B has fairly modern weapon and engine tech.
- Oberth has bullshit space-warping tech to make any sense as a feasible design.

That said, it's a moot point. If the Rigellians were planning to share modern outpost technology, the Tauni likely would've received modern sensor and weapon (and RIGELLIAN HULL) technology anyway.

nocarename said:
Orions are doing exactly what I'd expect. As much civilian construction as they can get their neighbours to pay for to keep their berths busy and prop up the economy. I expect that the same day that they ratify for membership, they will petition to get in the Gabriel and use that to grow their resource income.
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I really appreciate that the Orions are doing this, mind you. They should build more berths and keep going. Plenty of new low-tech species are coming up that could use this kind of deal.
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Have the Orions actually been building/upgrading their shipyards?

I figure that the Orions building auxiliaries for others is a confluence of two primary factors:
1) They probably have a sizable surplus of berths from semi-nationalizing some hypercorp private shipyards and possibly some previously-hidden still-operational Syndicate shipyards*
2) They're still recovering economically from what was for all intents and purposes an interstellar civil war, and thus can't fully utilize their berths anyway

* The last member fleet shipyard update that we got back in 2315.Q2, the Orions were omitted for some reason, so I'm not sure what berths they actually have.
 
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So took a look at the aux yard, 2 freighters finish this quarter and the hospital ship finishes next year in the first quarter. I think we need to make sure we make at least 1 berth available for a hospital ship, and I imagine that they will build a follow up one in the same berth.
 
Tally time
Adhoc vote count started by Thors_Alumni on Jul 20, 2017 at 9:39 PM, finished with 144 posts and 27 votes.
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lbmaian said:
TBH I have reservations with the current plans on offer so far. I'm willing to sacrifice the 3mt SF berth in favor of just taking advantage of HIP serial build bonuses,
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Currently we are building a Constellation-A in the San Fran 3mt berth so no serial build for an Excelsior-A. In addition based on @Briefvoice projection we will have a wave of 5 Ambassadors when the first two finish, and then we can start 2 the next year. With the San Fran Yard and the UP expansion that gives us 5 3mt at UP and 2 3mt at San Fran which allows us to make that wave. Also the 3mt berth at San Fran will open up 1q before the Constellation-A is finished allowing us to do a dual build of Excelsior-A when it does finish. Otherwise that 3mt berth takes longer to get up and running.
 
Mostly because Simon_Jester posted what he did and A tally seemed like a good idea for people who are interested in knowing who voted for whom. And some people may not have even noticed that my previous tally post was higher up on the page.
 
I'm a bit torn on what to vote for. None of the plans do exactly what I want, yet all of them are close enough that I can live with them.

Void Stalker said:
So took a look at the aux yard, 2 freighters finish this quarter and the hospital ship finishes next year in the first quarter. I think we need to make sure we make at least 1 berth available for a hospital ship, and I imagine that they will build a follow up one in the same berth.
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What builds happen in the Aux yard is not currently in our control. That is where Engineering/Colonization/Medical/Logistics have their berths and times picked out for the next decade already ...
 
Void Stalker said:
Currently we are building a Constellation-A in the San Fran 3mt berth so no serial build for an Excelsior-A. In addition based on @Briefvoice projection we will have a wave of 5 Ambassadors when the first two finish, and then we can start 2 the next year. With the San Fran Yard and the UP expansion that gives us 5 3mt at UP and 2 3mt at San Fran which allows us to make that wave. Also the 3mt berth at San Fran will open up 1q before the Constellation-A is finished allowing us to do a dual build of Excelsior-A when it does finish. Otherwise that 3mt berth takes longer to get up and running.
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Well yes, but then we'd be projected to building concurrently in 2320: 6 Excelsior-As, 2 Ambassadors, and 2 Excelsior-A refits

Which is overkill. We'd have already reached our de facto goal an Excelsior-A per sector, or at least have builds scheduled by then to complete that goal. The 5pp per explorer is not worth the resource inefficiency - it just merely softens the cost.

I'd rather save the resources used for say 2 Excelsior-As on another Ambassador (plus Kepler/Renaissance) so that we can convert as many of our FYMs from Excelsior-As to Ambassadors as quickly as possible.

And that means I don't think we absolutely need to maximize our 3mt berth capacity in Sol at prohibitive cost.

Really, if there's any reason I'd tip over to vote for another 3mt berth at San Francisco is for narrative reasons: San Francisco is home to the research team that has designed all our previous explorers, including the Constitution and Excelsior.

edit: that and I'm not sure what else to spend it on that would be better
 
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Of all the Starfleet Affiliates It seems like the Humans have the least number of Starships in their own fleet. And I kind of want some of them to go the GBZ just to take advantage of the resources there like the Amarkians and Catians are doing. Those two species have already found colony locations that are sure to increase their own resources substantially.

AlphaDelta said:
My concern is that none of the other plans go for Max colonies.
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I agree with you about the Max Colonies options but the other plan that I voted for had pretty much everything I wanted including a 3 MT berth at Sol. Btut at least we are buying the two colonies with the most BR in it.
 
lbmaian said:
Well yes, but then we'd be projected to building concurrently in 2320: 6 Excelsior-As, 2 Ambassadors, and 2 Excelsior-A refits

Which is overkill. We'd have already reached our de facto goal an Excelsior-A per sector, or at least have builds scheduled by then to complete that goal. The 5pp per explorer is not worth the resource inefficiency - it just merely softens the cost.

I'd rather save the resources used for say 2 Excelsior-As on another Ambassador (plus Kepler/Renaissance) so that we can convert as many of our FYMs from Excelsior-As to Ambassadors as quickly as possible.

And that means I don't think we absolutely need to maximize our 3mt berth capacity in Sol.

Really, if there's any reason I'd tip over to vote for another 3mt berth at San Francisco is for narrative reasons: San Francisco is home to the research team that has designed all our previous explorers, including the Constitution and Excelsior.

edit: that and I'm not sure what else to spend it on that would be better
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We would start 2 Exelsior-A in 2319.Q3, they would finish 2322.Q1.

SF-A Excelsior-A finish 2322.Q1 Ambassador 2325.Q3
SF-B Excelsior-A finish 2322.Q1 Ambassador 2325.Q3

UP-A Excelsior-A finish 2318.Q2 Excelsior-A finish 2321.Q1
UP-B Ambassador 2321.Q4
UP-C Excelsior-A finish 2318.Q2 Excelsior-A finish 2321.Q1
UP-D Ambassador 2321.Q4
UP-E misc refits/build to be open 2321.Q4

The first wave of 5 Ambassadors start 2321.Q4 in the UP berths. The next quarter in the following year we start 2 more Ambassadors at SF berths which gives us the first wave of 7 finishing in 2325. That would be as quick as we can do it, and really this lets us get 7 3mt berths capable of parallel builds.
 
So with all these Berth expansions we're going to be running into another bottleneck.

Producing enough Warp Cores, Nacelles, Deflector Dishes that get produced at individual factories and shipped to the yards.

Aka Critical Ship Infrastructure


@OneirosTheWriter is there any chance we could get a note in the MCWO of how strained Critical Ship Infrastructure is?
 
Void Stalker said:
We would start 2 Exelsior-A in 2319.Q3, they would finish 2322.Q1.

SF-A Excelsior-A finish 2322.Q1 Ambassador 2325.Q3
SF-B Excelsior-A finish 2322.Q1 Ambassador 2325.Q3

UP-A Excelsior-A finish 2318.Q2 Excelsior-A finish 2321.Q1
UP-B Ambassador 2321.Q4
UP-C Excelsior-A finish 2318.Q2 Excelsior-A finish 2321.Q1
UP-D Ambassador 2321.Q4
UP-E misc refits/build to be open 2321.Q4

The first wave of 5 Ambassadors start 2321.Q4 in the UP berths. The next quarter in the following year we start 2 more Ambassadors at SF berths which gives us the first wave of 7 finishing in 2325. That would be as quick as we can do it, and really this lets us get 7 3mt berths capable of parallel builds.
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Or we could just continue Excelsior-A production in the 40E berths. The Excelsior-A build time savings of a year in a parallel SF builds vs 40E builds just don't matter much to me, especially if we're building a more efficient and faster-building cruiser or Kepler in the SF berths instead.

I just don't see the point of max and urgent Excelsior-A production. You guys do realize that it's both a resource hog and no longer best in class? That 5pp build bonus for a 3-4 year build is worth peanuts compared that, more so if we're saving some of the Excelsior-A build cost for a best-in-class Ambassador build.

fitzgerald said:
So with all these Berth expansions we're going to be running into another bottleneck.

Producing enough Warp Cores, Nacelles, Deflector Dishes that get produced at individual factories and shipped to the yards.

Aka Critical Ship Infrastructure


@OneirosTheWriter is there any chance we could get a note in the MCWO of how strained Critical Ship Infrastructure is?
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Critical Ship Infrastructure has two purposes: redundancy and reducing logistics industrial loop route penalties.

The former I'm not too worried about yet - maybe later after the ratifications or the imminent threat profile really increases.

The latter would move us from 2x route penalty to 1.9x route penalty in the industrial loop, which for our current cargo requirements in that loop, is currently negligible - not sure if we'd even save a single cargo ship with that.
 
Void Stalker said:
The first wave of 5 Ambassadors start 2321.Q4 in the UP berths. The next quarter in the following year we start 2 more Ambassadors at SF berths which gives us the first wave of 7 finishing in 2325. That would be as quick as we can do it, and really this lets us get 7 3mt berths capable of parallel builds.
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I'm trying to visualize the Klingon/Romulon/Cardassian reactions to hearing that, just after having finished two of the prototype of our new A-type battleships, we promptly laid down the hulls for 8 more (cause you know the Humans will start one as soon as they can).

Plans to cause Sol to Nova will be accelerated ....
 
Goat said:
I'm trying to visualize the Klingon/Romulon/Cardassian reactions to hearing that, just after having finished two of the prototype of our new A-type battleships, we promptly laid down the hulls for 8 more (cause you know the Humans will start one as soon as they can).

Plans to cause Sol to Nova will be accelerated ....
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Plans to turn Amarkia into Sol 2.0 with another UP installed will be Accelerated.:D
 
lbmaian said:
Or we could just continue Excelsior-A production in the 40E berths. The Excelsior-A build time savings of a year in a parallel SF builds vs 40E builds just don't matter much to me, especially if we're building a more efficient and faster-building cruiser or Kepler in the SF berths instead.

I just don't see the point of max and urgent Excelsior-A production. You guys do realize that it's both a resource hog and no longer best in class? That 5pp build bonus for a 3-4 year build is worth peanuts compared that, more so if we're saving some of the Excelsior-A build cost for a best-in-class Ambassador build.
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Excelsior-A in parallel takes 2 3/4 years, parallel Ambassador take 3 1/2 years. Kepler wave would be done in the 1mt and 2mt berths (we have 2 at San Fran, 5 1mt in UP and 1 2mt in UP so up to 8 at a time). Plus Keplers will not be available for general production in 2319 which is when we would be doing the Excelsior-A.

Goat said:
I'm trying to visualize the Klingon/Romulon/Cardassian reactions to hearing that, just after having finished two of the prototype of our new A-type battleships, we promptly laid down the hulls for 8 more (cause you know the Humans will start one as soon as they can).

Plans to cause Sol to Nova will be accelerated ....
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Well expect Andor and Tellar are likely to build one as well, maybe the Indoria and some of the others as well. But yeah that might give them pause.
 
lbmaian said:
- Oberth has bullshit space-warping tech to make any sense as a feasible design.
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My working hypothesis is that, more so than other Starfleet designs possibly including the Kepler, the Oberths are true science vessels. It's not just that they have ample lab space and medical facilities on a hull that would otherwise be a light cargo ship. It's that they bring together more specialized science teams than is the norm. Maybe civilian researchers, instead. As a result, their ability to 'get science done' is out of all proportion to what could normally be accomplished on a Starfleet vessel, but it's a function of the people, not the ship itself. If an Oberth can SCIENCE! as hard as a Green Explorer Corps ship (give or take a bit), it's because they've got a science team as good or better than an Explorer Corps Excelsior. Just with (potentially) somewhat less space and fewer sensors to work with.

A Kepler basically takes that same exceptional science team, and gives it resources comparable to those found on a cruiser-sized platform, so that it can outperform all but the highest-end of our pre-2320 explorers in research and survey missions. On the other hand, the cruiser-sized hull requires a much larger crew than the comparative skeleton crew required to operate an Oberth. The Oberth would probably be a 1/1/1 ship if not for that science team; the Kepler, I'm arguing, would be more like 2/3/1 or 2/3/2.

Come to think of it, you could probably do worse than to imagine a Kepler as "what if someone took a Constellation and bolted an Oberth on as a science module?" :D

AlphaDelta said:
My concern is that none of the other plans go for Max colonies.
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We arguably don't WANT max colonies. Colonies require engineering assets to build, and Oneiros is tracking our use of engineering assets. Resource colonies place extra demand on our transport availability, and we're trying to get on top of a transport shortage right now. There are valid arguments for not buying more bulk resource colonies right now.

Basically, buying more colonies as fast as possible may not be optimal. A great deal depends on where the colonies are, and what they produce.
 
Void Stalker said:
Excelsior-A in parallel takes 2 3/4 years, parallel Ambassador take 3 1/2 years. Kepler wave would be done in the 1mt and 2mt berths (we have 2 at San Fran, 5 1mt in UP and 1 2mt in UP so up to 8 at a time). Plus Keplers will not be available for general production in 2319 which is when we would be doing the Excelsior-A.
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Again, why are these extra Excelsior-As so urgent? Or wanted compared to cheaper, more efficient, and faster builds? Or cost saved for a later Ambassador?

We're well on the way of getting an Excelsior-A per sector for taking lead in event response:

- If we continue 4 Excelsior-A construction (along with 2 E-A refits), then we'll have 22 Excelsior(-A)s by 2321 (including 2 in the middle of refit, excluding Stargazer).

- If I'm counting correctly, we currently have 13 sectors/BZs plus GBZ, which by 2321 I'd estimate would expand by 2 (Seyek sector, Honiani sector). The majority of those are internal sectors, some of which like Tellar shouldn't even need an Excelsior.

- Meanwhile, excluding Stargazer, I'm expecting 9 concurrent FYMs by then, two of them on the just-finished Ambassador and Enterprise-C.

- So if we want to guarantee at least one Excelsior in all sectors, then we'll need 16 + 7 Excelsior FYMs => 23 Excelsiors. Some sectors like Tellar don't need Excelsiors, but I can see doubling up on Excelsiors in border zones like GBZ still useful.

- By this point, we'll have 2-4 Excelsior-A under construction along with a just-started wave of Ambassadors. I'm basically arguing that I'd prefer favoring better build options and dropping down to 2 or less Excelsior-A builds at this point, which could be started in any of the 3mt berths across 40 Eridani or Amarkia or SF in 2319/2320. And we're not in a hurry for their completion.

(Also, pretty sure parallel/serial Excelsior-A builds take 3 years, not 2 3/4 years, since this is akin to Chen's old bonus. And likewise, parallel/serial Ambassador builds take 3 3/4 years, not 3 1/2 years.)

Again, the main reason I'd be okay with another 3mt berth at San Francisco is to support the weight of history behind the research team there, the one responsible for at least the Constitution and Excelsior designs.
 
Hm.
[X][COUNCIL] 2317 Snakepit – Sydraxian Diplomacy, Shipyard Expansion, and Starfleet Reorg

[X][AMB] Announce new Starfleet Ambition: Maintain a strong Forward Defense.
[X][TECH] Inid Uttar Institute (Sk 3, Sensors / Propulsion)
[X][TECH] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute (Sk 3, Starbases / Minerals)
 
lbmaian said:
Again, why are these extra Excelsior-As so urgent? Or wanted compared to cheaper, more efficient, and faster builds? Or cost saved for a later Ambassador?

We're well on the way of getting an Excelsior-A per sector for taking lead in event response:

- If we continue 4 Excelsior-A construction (along with 2 E-A refits), then we'll have 22 Excelsior(-A)s by 2321 (including 2 in the middle of refit, excluding Stargazer).

- If I'm counting correctly, we currently have 13 sectors/BZs plus GBZ, which by 2321 I'd estimate would expand by 2 (Seyek sector, Honiani sector). The majority of those are internal sectors, some of which like Tellar shouldn't even need an Excelsior.

- Meanwhile, excluding Stargazer, I'm expecting 9 concurrent FYMs by then, two of them on the just-finished Ambassador and Enterprise-C.

- So if we want to guarantee at least one Excelsior in all sectors, then we'll need 16 + 7 Excelsior FYMs => 23 Excelsiors. Some sectors like Tellar don't need Excelsiors, but I can see doubling up on Excelsiors in border zones like GBZ still useful.

- By this point, we'll have 2-4 Excelsior-A under construction along with a just-started wave of Ambassadors. I'm basically arguing that I'd prefer favoring better build options and dropping down to 2 or less Excelsior-A builds at this point, which could be started in any of the 3mt berths across 40 Eridani or Amarkia or SF in 2319/2320. And we're not in a hurry for their completion.

(Also, pretty sure parallel/serial Excelsior-A builds take 3 years, not 2 3/4 years, since this is akin to Chen's old bonus. And likewise, parallel/serial Ambassador builds take 3 3/4 years, not 3 1/2 years.)

Again, the main reason I'd be okay with another 3mt berth at San Francisco is to support the weight of history behind the research team there, the one responsible for at least the Constitution and Excelsior designs.
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Also look to have two more border zones popping up, one facing the Horizon and one facing the rim. And they are the best event responders we have along with being discounted to count as C5 against the cap.
 
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