- Location
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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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I was concerned he wasn't coming across as polished as he "should" have been. It's possible most of the xenodiplomacy was conducted by a different caste and he's just not used to dealing with outsiders for this length of time. Even then, you'd expect him to be more adaptive due to internal politics if anything else. Maybe everyone was just having a bad day that day.
What I sort of figure though is he thinks there's no way the Fed and Seyek are going to cut ties with him due to impoliteness, so he's being a dick to regain some semblance of control over his life.
Maybe we should recruit him as an external "diplomacy" team for the Arcadian crisis?
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
If Starfleet ship casualties continue to be light, one thing we could do to help shore up our relationship and cooperation with the Ked Paddah is allow access to our ship/repair yards, and perhaps just as importantly, our heavy industry repair rushing teams.
Jenny
anonymous user
- Location
- maryland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
They're not even affiliates. Just co-belligerents.
It's a nice sentiment, but looking at the map that's an awful long way to send ships on top of the tech-sharing issues that Goat notes. They'd have to be pretty hard up to consider it.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
True. I'm getting to used too thinking of ships as fungible units now in this war, what with our rushing member fleet ship repairs.
Other than supplying them resources or granting territorial rights (the latter of which is not even in Starfleet's jurisdiction), I can't think of any other way to help recompense their losses.
Other than supplying them resources or granting territorial rights (the latter of which is not even in Starfleet's jurisdiction), I can't think of any other way to help recompense their losses.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
While the objective of this battle is technically to take and hold Ixaria III, all we really need to do is neutralize the system's contribution to the war. Smashing the shipyard along with multiple ships, then leaving the system will force the Arcadians to tie down additional ships to repel future assaults. Until the defenses have been rebuilt, those ships are essentially mission-killed. That's almost certainly going to take months.
And if we do actually manage to take and hold the system, even better!
[X] Attack Ixaria Orbit
And if we do actually manage to take and hold the system, even better!
[X] Attack Ixaria Orbit
- Location
- Patriarchova
The Orah is a slightly bulked up Almud with an extra engineering section to power its stronger shields and engines.
The Aggadah, likewise, is a slimmed down version of the Egillah with some modern tech additions throughout, including stronger warp field projectors that allow for a more efficient nacelle arrangement. Some coincidental similarities with Amarki and Starfleet ship design are beginning to appear.
Kind of boring looking ships, but that's intentional. The KP build with simplicity in mind.
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KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I like them.
The Orah is a slightly bulked up Almud with an extra engineering section to power its stronger shields and engines.
The Aggadah, likewise, is a slimmed down version of the Egillah with some modern tech additions throughout, including stronger warp field projectors that allow for a more efficient nacelle arrangement. Some coincidental similarities with Amarki and Starfleet ship design are beginning to appear.
Kind of boring looking ships, but that's intentional. The KP build with simplicity in mind.
Simple, but elegant.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Maybe we should recruit him as an external "diplomacy" team for the Arcadian crisis?
"Only the Federation has so weaponized their diplomacy as to deliberately recruit the worst diplomats they can find and send them to the factions of enemy states the Federation desires to infuriate so they make poor choices in a conflict." - Tal'Shiar
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
[X] Attack Ixaria Orbit
At this point, they are in an untenable situation, and the only way they can be bailed out is through reinforcements from elsewhere. Now isn't the time to take them apart piecemeal, now is the time to go for their jugular. We should attempt to avoid destroying infrastructure because after the battle is over, the winner is entitled to all that remains.
At this point, they are in an untenable situation, and the only way they can be bailed out is through reinforcements from elsewhere. Now isn't the time to take them apart piecemeal, now is the time to go for their jugular. We should attempt to avoid destroying infrastructure because after the battle is over, the winner is entitled to all that remains.
- Location
- Patriarchova
We don't have the forces to leave a fleet in this system. We will need Thuir's task force to assist against Morshadd, which means there will be no one to keep Ixaria secured. All shipyards and starbases in this system are going bye bye.
Also, "to the victor the spoils," seriously? We're not here to enrich ourselves.
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
We don't have to, remember those mine fields that have been a major pain in our ass? The funny thing about mines is that they are indiscriminate when it comes to who they hit. From my perspective, anything that remains intact after we gain control of the system is likely to flip sides due to those manning said defenses surrendering. Whatever remains intact can be used against any counterattack, and the Lictori have made this system into a fortress.
We don't have the forces to leave a fleet in this system. We will need Thuir's task force to assist against Morshadd, which means there will be no one to keep Ixaria secured. All shipyards and starbases in this system are going bye bye.
Also, "to the victor the spoils," seriously? We're not here to enrich ourselves.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Still going with...
[X] Attack Further Research Stations (Maximum of 2)
-[X] Attack Ixira's Scalpel
-[X] Attack Iron Dome
Losing the (frigate-sized) building slip is a relatively minor inconvenience in a war like this, because it's going to be over in much less time than it takes to build new ships, or even to do heavy repairs on them.
It's like, "the defenses" doesn't just mean the outposts that we can realistically destroy by targeting Ixaria Prime. It means the minefields, it means the outer stations that buff the defenders. All that stuff will still be there if we focus on Ixaria Prime, and we will be stuck deep inside the enemy's space at the time when most of us anticipate their reinforcements arriving.
And supported by the boosts from the rest of the House Ixira defenses in this system (+6 combat, probably +10 to +20 points of shields from Iron Dome, drastically improved shield burnthrough from Ixira's Scalpel, plus those long-range torpedo barrages)... It is entirely possible that the Imperial Navy can actually defeat our task force.
Also, "the winner is entitled to all that remains" is more of the stuff I wish you'd stop gloatingly fantasizing over. Please to indulge conquest fetishes elsewhere... [sighs]
If so, then your perspective needs a little work.
One of the common fallacies associated with conquest-fetishism is the tendency to assume that others lack the grit and resourcefulness to deprive oneself of a victory.
[X] Attack Further Research Stations (Maximum of 2)
-[X] Attack Ixira's Scalpel
-[X] Attack Iron Dome
If things go as I fear, we'll have to fight the two buffed frigates and the tough outposts in Ixaria orbit, then get attacked by an imperial reinforcement fleet that will be likewise buffed. Given that the buffs can be applied anywhere in the star system, I am extremely reluctant to believe we can just not have to worry about them when fighting the imperial reinforcement fleet.
That's a fairly optimistic assessment in my opinion.
Could we not get a much more favorable trade by destroying the buffing stations? Either the imperials have to attack us with lesser buffs and are easier to beat, or they try to fort up around Ixaria Prime and prevent us from taking the system. In the former case we get your "fair trade" outcome but at a more favorable exchange rate. In the latter, we get "fair trade" without firing a shot, because the reinforcements that could otherwise help Gammon are pinned down by us in the Ixaria system.
Given how swamped their repair/construction infrastructure is, we should offer. They might not accept. But we should offer. It's their call.
If they know reinforcements are coming, and that our forces are engaged and worn down in battle with the fixed defenses around Ixaria Prime... why would they surrender? Why wouldn't they try to hold out until reinforcements arrive? Especially since our casualties will probably limit our tactical options. After all, we can't take our crippled ships into battle with us, but we also can't leave them behind to be snapped up by a large, intact, buffed imperial fleet. That limits our mobility and flexibility.
...Wait, how does leaving the remaining defensive science stations intact help with this plan again? I mean, right now the Licori have only lost three facilities, one of which (the silos) can probably be rebuilt fairly easily compared to the main installations in the system. The system defenses are still pretty formidable. Losing the outposts will hurt their ability to defend the planet, but it honestly wouldn't take many Licori starships benefiting from the buffs to defend the system- and they can inflict further casualties on us if their reinforcement fleet, while buffed, hits our chewed-up attack fleet.
Losing the (frigate-sized) building slip is a relatively minor inconvenience in a war like this, because it's going to be over in much less time than it takes to build new ships, or even to do heavy repairs on them.
It's like, "the defenses" doesn't just mean the outposts that we can realistically destroy by targeting Ixaria Prime. It means the minefields, it means the outer stations that buff the defenders. All that stuff will still be there if we focus on Ixaria Prime, and we will be stuck deep inside the enemy's space at the time when most of us anticipate their reinforcements arriving.
Two of their three ships can retreat rather than fight us. The heavy industry in this system is important, but we're not going to be able to win this war without subduing House Ixira, specifically. Wrecking their factories isn't going to be enough to accomplish that. We're going to need to break their fortress, deprive them of a defensible redoubt from which they can scratch together their remaining resources to build one last superweapon in a cave from a box of scraps.
I think you're being extremely vague about who "they" are and what "their jugular" is. The outposts orbiting Ixaria are not the 'jugular' of this defense system in that the defense system collapses if those outposts are destroyed. There is no jugular. There is a network of reinforcing weapon systems and fortifications, distributed widely for mutual support. If we concentrate all our power in punching the single toughest node of those defenses, when the enemy knows reinforcements are on the way, there is no reason to expect the enemy's will to resist to magically crumble. It is far more likely that they will look at the losses and damaged ships we take in this fight and say "just hang on, the Imperial Navy is on the way!"
And supported by the boosts from the rest of the House Ixira defenses in this system (+6 combat, probably +10 to +20 points of shields from Iron Dome, drastically improved shield burnthrough from Ixira's Scalpel, plus those long-range torpedo barrages)... It is entirely possible that the Imperial Navy can actually defeat our task force.
Also, "the winner is entitled to all that remains" is more of the stuff I wish you'd stop gloatingly fantasizing over. Please to indulge conquest fetishes elsewhere... [sighs]
Do you really think that the Ixaria defenders of this systems are such stupid cowards that they will sign over control of their own minefields and gun emplacements rather than, say, setting off explosives to wreck the weapons, and sending commands that disable or destroy the mines?
If so, then your perspective needs a little work.
One of the common fallacies associated with conquest-fetishism is the tendency to assume that others lack the grit and resourcefulness to deprive oneself of a victory.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
My issue with the latter case is that it doesn't end with the Ixaria system being secured, and every month we wait on that is one more month House Ixira's mentats have to work on their sun research. I think we should be willing to endure losses if it means taking a large amount of House Ixira mentats off the table. Seriously, they're remote-detonating warp cores now, what.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The problem is that it also doesn't end with the Ixaria system being secured if the joint Thuir/Ked Paddah fleet gets its butt kicked up between its ears by a vengeful Combat 40+6 fleet with buffed shield penetration and shields on the flagships that could make a literal orbital doomfortress cry.
[EDIT: I am using 'Combat 40' as a rough proxy for the expected performance of an Imperial reinforcement fleet. We know they have that many ships and sending anything much weaker than Combat 40 or so probably isn't going to be enough to save the system in any case, so I think we can reasonably expect reinforcements on that level]
[EDIT: I am using 'Combat 40' as a rough proxy for the expected performance of an Imperial reinforcement fleet. We know they have that many ships and sending anything much weaker than Combat 40 or so probably isn't going to be enough to save the system in any case, so I think we can reasonably expect reinforcements on that level]
I suspect the Ked Peddah plan on securing the system, at least until there's a peace treaty. They've been holding minor colonies they previously took.
What do you believe would induce the Imperial Reinforcement to give up and turn around? The QM has said they would almost certainly consider it a lost cause if the Ked Peddah can get ground troops on Ixaria and might consider it to be a lost cause if we hold Ixaria orbit, even if we can't land ground troops due to Iron Hail. Since "Imperial Reinforcements give up and turn around" is the most desirable outcome from our point of view, I think a lot of us are gambling on that.
Particularly since if we can take orbit there's still a decent chance we can do the third phase and go mop up Iron Hail (25 % to 50% chance reinforcements show up before we can do a third phase of attacks). Since it will take a lot less ships to take Iron Hail than it will to take orbit, I'd rather take Orbit in Phase 2, then use whatever ships are left to take Iron Hail in Phase 3, and then not fight the Imperial fleet at all.
Key words, "if they know reinforcements are coming". If. If. But nobody does know right now. They know they called for help, but they don't know if help will arrive. Maybe the Federation has a blocking fleet keeping reinforcements from arriving. (We don't, but they don't know that.) Maybe the Emperor can't spare enough ships to relieve them. That's why I said it's a matter of morale.
Do you hold out hoping for reinforcements, knowing that if they don't come the enemy will come around and sweep up your fortresses one by one? Or do you surrender to preserve the lives of your men? Always a tricky question.
I think you're over-estimating those buffs. Except for the shield burn-through one, they only apply to three ships at a time. Worse, the shield boost is much better on Explorers and cruisers... the type of ships they can least afford to leave on garrison duty.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
That sounds like a lot of wishful thinking: "The enemy won't dare to fight us!"
Oneiros's words that I can find were "However, it is uncertain whether the Arcadians will feel there is any chance of rescuing the situation if you already hold Ixaria orbit." Uncertain. If they show up after we've cleared the Ixaria orbital defenses, but what's left of our fleet is either assaulting Iron Hail or split between that and holding the orbitals... They really do have an opportunity to kick us very hard, given that they'd have an intact fleet that benefits from buffs to do it with.
I may be missing some place where Oneiros was very explicit that the imperial fleet would be quick to give up if we can just be sitting in Ixaria orbit when they arrive. But if I were the task force commander in charge of the Licori reinforcement fleet, and I had anything like the forces I expect them to send, and if our forces are in the state I expect them to be in...
I'd engage the enemy.
...Why would you expect that the Ixarians don't know when or if reinforcements are coming?
Do these technological geniuses not have communication devices? Are we somehow certain that we have jammed those communication devices so well that no Ixarian can hear anything said to them by any other Licori?
It seems incredibly unlikely that they don't know what (if any) reinforcements are headed for their system. We don't know that, but that doesn't mean nobody knows that.
It seems to me that we're now gambling on the reinforcements not showing up, or passively acceding to our will. Those are not good bets to place, especially not with a species whose hat seems to be "reckless endangerment of themselves and others" even more so than the Gaeni's was.
Honestly, if they just park three frigates in-system, said frigates get buffed up to a level where they have combined defensive power that may not be as good as what was previously guarding Ixaria Prime, but is at least within shouting distance.
It's not that hard for the Licori to at least crudely patch a defense in this system, given that the only heavy fighting assets we'll have destroyed were the outposts around the homeworld and hopefully two or three ships.[/QUOTE]
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Ground troops on Ixiaria = win and we don't have to fight anymore.
I'm not going to bother trying to justify it because I don't care how it's explained. That's the scenario presented. You go rationalize it if you care.
Uh, because broadcasting your ship movements is a pretty foolish move. What's the keep Federation forces from intercepting the transmission?
Well once again your mental model of the situation radically differs from my own.
Objection! That's only mentats. Regular Licori are no more reckless than anyone else. We've been told that specifically.
But yes, you're right it's a gamble. Your prefered action is also a gamble. You're gambling:
1. We don't lost so many ships in research stations taking that we can no longer win the battle for orbit.
2. That reinforcements don't show up in phase 3 (just like our plan does).
But mostly I get the impression you've basically given up on taking Ixaria. You think it's impossible and have totally switched into "what do we destroy before we leave" mode.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I can accept that ground troops on Ixaria Prime equal win. But if we don't attack Iron Hail in the second wave (and neither you nor I am planning to), then it will be at least a "fourth wave" event that we can fly the transports into the system and prepare for troop landings. By that time, any Imperial fleet headed for us will most likely be popping into the system, so we have no assurance of being able to get ground troops to Ixaria Prime before enemy reinforcements arrive, no matter what we do.
The timetable for reinforcements is extremely important information to the defenders, so important that it's very possibly worth letting the Federation know about it (among other things because that may cause the attackers to run away without a fight, which is the Licori's best-case scenario here).
Furthermore, it is child's play to encode this information in such a way that the Federation cannot accurately calculate its meaning, even if they can read Licori codes. I can think of several ways to do it off the top of my head, by prior planning and arrangement.
I mean seriously, if an isolated outpost is under overwhelming attack and you don't tell them that help is coming,they could act in a way that greatly undermines the ability of your reinforcements to help them. They may choose to surrender. They may do something reckless in hopes of driving the enemy away. Anything could happen. It is very common practice to simply inform a beleaguered outpost that "help is on the way." And to provide a timetable.
I don't know where you get the idea that this is somehow a massive breach of military secrecy, to the point where we can literally take for granted that this is the case. That just because we don't know what reinforcements are coming, the Ixarians don't know it themselves.
Do you mean to tell me that if one of the four largest outlying strongholds of your nation was under heavy attack and screaming for reinforcements, you would not tell them whether help was on the way, and how much help they could expect?
My view is that if we make an all-out, death-or-glory gamble on taking Ixaria, we will suffer significant fleet losses. There is a high risk that an imperial reinforcement fleet will arrive before or shortly after we launch an attack on Iron Hail in order to permit troopships to enter the system. If so, said imperial reinforcement fleet has a high chance of being able to trounce our remaining forces, what with getting something like +6C, roughly +15L, and a shield penetration buff.
Personally, what I'd rather do is hit the remaining research stations, withdraw the fleet to the fringe of the system, and wait to see what the Licori do. If a reinforcement fleet arrives, we can gauge its strength and whether or not to try to attack it before it reaches Ixaria. If it does reach Ixaria, that isn't necessarily a problem for us, because it means the main body of the Licori fleet is pinned down in this area. As long as we can maintain even a fraction of our original task force in the general area, the Licori cannot afford to do anything other than heavily garrison the system against raids.
Basically, I do not think it is realistic for us to try to conquer Ixaria before the reinforcement fleet arrives. It's going to take at least two more rounds of intense fighting to achieve that goal, and the actual ground assault will occur in the third round of fighting. If we want to take Ixaria, without exposing our forces to a high risk of getting mauled by the reinforcement fleet, we need to defeat the reinforcementsbefore attacking the planet. In which case our priority is to deprive the reinforcements of strength, by neutralizing the buffs that would otherwise render them a much stronger force.
I think we can still hope to take Ixaria- maybe. But we cannot craft our battleplan assuming that we will be able to avoid combat with a reinforcement fleet, purely because it is our desire and hope to avoid such combat.
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I think you aren't thinking things through far enough, @Simon_Jester.
If we attack now, destroy both outposts and the shipyard, and then at some point after that, Imperial reinforcements arrive, that means our current fleets withdraw. Then what happens? The Imperial reinforcements have to camp out in a system whose main planet has no fixed defenses and who no longer have the repair infrastructure to recover casualties.
So what happens if ka'Sharren or T'Lorel menace towards Ixaria? Or even have small elements menace towards Ixaria? The Imperials are fucked if we can do that, because they have no fixed defenses to hole up behind and because we've already charted safe routes through the minefield. They have the choice of remaining in place in great force on Ixaria III, where they are no safer than a fleet in deep space (except for the combat and shield bonus, but that doesn't equal the lost outposts), or they can leave and if they leave the KP arrive and invade, again, with no obstacle.
On the other hand, if we do not destroy both outposts of Ixaria III, and then at some point after that, Imperial reinforcements arrive, that means our current fleets withdraw and then the Imperials can camp out in a system with a wall of reinforced outposts with C+H+L equal to 4 Excelsiors (conservative estimate). They can deliver a small garrison and then are free to leave. Even if we come back, they are far safer and have far more time to work with (and an uncharted minefield) with those two outposts intact. Maneuvering towards Ixaria has far less effect, because the defenses are not "bare", and we cannot threaten invasion at any slackening of the guard.
And that's not even discussing the case where the Imperials do not arrive or the effects on other operations. You can implement these cases in about a day or two at most, given that ka'Sharren is right there ready to do so. If we demonstrate a 60C fleet (ka'Sharren + Thuir + KP - damaged) and fighting over Ixaria Prime is equivalent to a deep space battle? What good option would the Imperials have? It's a rock and a hard place. It gives us options that leaving the outposts intact do not.
We also get to destroy the cruiser in the slip, uncontested.
If we attack now, destroy both outposts and the shipyard, and then at some point after that, Imperial reinforcements arrive, that means our current fleets withdraw. Then what happens? The Imperial reinforcements have to camp out in a system whose main planet has no fixed defenses and who no longer have the repair infrastructure to recover casualties.
So what happens if ka'Sharren or T'Lorel menace towards Ixaria? Or even have small elements menace towards Ixaria? The Imperials are fucked if we can do that, because they have no fixed defenses to hole up behind and because we've already charted safe routes through the minefield. They have the choice of remaining in place in great force on Ixaria III, where they are no safer than a fleet in deep space (except for the combat and shield bonus, but that doesn't equal the lost outposts), or they can leave and if they leave the KP arrive and invade, again, with no obstacle.
On the other hand, if we do not destroy both outposts of Ixaria III, and then at some point after that, Imperial reinforcements arrive, that means our current fleets withdraw and then the Imperials can camp out in a system with a wall of reinforced outposts with C+H+L equal to 4 Excelsiors (conservative estimate). They can deliver a small garrison and then are free to leave. Even if we come back, they are far safer and have far more time to work with (and an uncharted minefield) with those two outposts intact. Maneuvering towards Ixaria has far less effect, because the defenses are not "bare", and we cannot threaten invasion at any slackening of the guard.
And that's not even discussing the case where the Imperials do not arrive or the effects on other operations. You can implement these cases in about a day or two at most, given that ka'Sharren is right there ready to do so. If we demonstrate a 60C fleet (ka'Sharren + Thuir + KP - damaged) and fighting over Ixaria Prime is equivalent to a deep space battle? What good option would the Imperials have? It's a rock and a hard place. It gives us options that leaving the outposts intact do not.
We also get to destroy the cruiser in the slip, uncontested.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Whatever President N'Gir and the Federation Council may think, there's no such thing as a short, victorious war. Denying access to slipways curtails the Arcadian ability to repair their ships, or construct new ones with which to poke stars.