It could be that the various mind readers have different methods, so what blocks a Konen only inconveniences a Betazoid and isn't even noticed by a Vulcan.
 
Besides the Andorians (4 genders) and Apiata (Queen, Drone, maybe additional) are all the other members and affiliates male/female races?

Oh and for the Apiata which ones would be joining Starfleet?

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Also what are the paths one can take in the academy? I am trying to get into writing and I am planning on doing so about characters going through the academy. Part of it is assembling a character generation chart covering things such as Race, Gender, Career Path, General Personality
 
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Besides the Andorians (4 genders) and Apiata (Queen, Drone, maybe additional) are all the other members and affiliates male/female races?

Oh and for the Apiata which ones would be joining Starfleet?

Queens as officers, Workers as Enlisted/Tech, and maybe a rare few as officers.

We've seen evidence of Apiata workers as officers, but all of the evidence points to them being the outliers. Right now, we are seeing the outliers.
 
As I understand it, the majority of Apiata that joined Star Fleet are 'defective' drones - the ones that just don't love their Queens as much as they are supposed to.

As their entire society revolves around biological rules to love and sacrifice everything for your queen mother ...

From the few omakes involving these Apiata the rejection from their normal society is very hard on them, and previously they were probably exiled or killed.
 
As I understand it, the majority of Apiata that joined Star Fleet are 'defective' drones - the ones that just don't love their Queens as much as they are supposed to.

As their entire society revolves around biological rules to love and sacrifice everything for your queen mother ...

From the few omakes involving these Apiata the rejection from their normal society is very hard on them, and previously they were probably exiled or killed.
Workers, not drones. Drones are a separate gender.

I can't find the post, but @Iron Wolf has a great omake where an Apiata officer talks about it.
 
You see "defective" workers in non-command regular and EC roles and you see queens in EC command.

Apatia queens are pretty bullshit leadership-wise. Those O-1 entries on a Queenship? That means they've got one or two, maybe three queens running an Excelsior-scale platform.
 
You see "defective" workers in non-command regular and EC roles and you see queens in EC command.

Apatia queens are pretty bullshit leadership-wise. Those O-1 entries on a Queenship? That means they've got one or two, maybe three queens running an Excelsior-scale platform.
There has to be a fair level of delegation, though. Just because a queen is captain doesn't mean she micromanages the entire crew. She'd have worker or maybe even drone subordinates who order around and direct other workers in her behalf. Not nearly as many as other species, but definitely some.
 
You see "defective" workers in non-command regular and EC roles and you see queens in EC command.

Apatia queens are pretty bullshit leadership-wise. Those O-1 entries on a Queenship? That means they've got one or two, maybe three queens running an Excelsior-scale platform.

How much of that is talent, and how much is having your entire crew genetically predisposed to absolute obedience? A Queen can command a group of Apiatan workers easily because there are literally never discipline or morale issues. I'm not sure how well their style of leadership would translate to the very different culture of the Federation.
 
How much of that is talent, and how much is having your entire crew genetically predisposed to absolute obedience? A Queen can command a group of Apiatan workers easily because there are literally never discipline or morale issues. I'm not sure how well their style of leadership would translate to the very different culture of the Federation.
There has to be a fair level of delegation, though. Just because a queen is captain doesn't mean she micromanages the entire crew. She'd have worker or maybe even drone subordinates who order around and direct other workers in her behalf. Not nearly as many as other species, but definitely some.
We've seen the charts. We get EC officers from them, but no regular officers. It's not just the biology.
 
Why do you assume the EC officers are queens? I figured they were the rare workers/drones who were unable to connect to a queen and interested in command.

That doesn't explain why they didn't appear before ratification when we were explicitly doing disaffected workers, nor does it explain why they always qualify for EC and not the regular fleet.
 
How much of that is talent, and how much is having your entire crew genetically predisposed to absolute obedience?

Well that's the question. Are we assuming that the Queen in command is the mother of the entire crew? I actually think that's unlikely. Workers have their individual talents and skills just like everyone else, so every large enterprise (such as a starship crew) can't be made up of literally only one colony of queen-mother and children.

I think one of the big breakthroughs that allowed the Apiata to advance to interstellar civilization is that they found ways to allow Workers to be ordered around by the queens of other colonies. Once they're able to shift workers around like that, they can achieve the necessary degree of labor flexibility to run an interstellar civilization. So most workers have Queen-I-work-for and also Queen-my-mother (that they are genetically predisposed to obey). Then they also have "High Queens" who have political rank and whom they also have an obligation to obey.

As for the EC offiers, maybe that's made of of especially adventurous Queens who are willing to leave most of their children behind and go off and have spacefaring adventures with only a few of their actual family around them.
 
The Konen searched the minds of the galaxy, looking from race to race for the strongest, most deadly ship designs. Unfortunately for them, the Ferengi are the best at bullshitting, even inside their own heads.
Weren't Ferengi Telepathy resistant?
Unfortunately for them, the Ferengi are the best at bullshitting, even inside their own heads.
Yes, and now we know WHY the Ferengi are telepathy-resistant. :D

Inside a Ferengi's brain, everything the Ferengi owns, including ideas, is incredibly valuable. Everything the Ferengi hopes to acquire is incredibly valuable, and rightfully theirs. Everything the Ferengi does not own, and isn't interested in, is worthless dross. Those grapes were probably sour anyway, right?

So while it's not hard to read a Ferengi's emotions (since they have poor emotional control), actually getting unbiased facts out of their brain is hard because you have to swim through a sea of "mine is the best, biggest" nonsense.

Like I said, I'm not sure at all about this design for the Whisper, and the ferengi resemblance is one of the reasons. What do you guys think?
I like it. Among other things because twenty years of dealing with the Konen may give us a healthier respect for "similarly designed" Ferengi warships when we eventually encounter them.

Ferengi were originally supposed to be kind of intimidating. Predatory mercantile instincts, with a distinct emphasis on the 'predation.' Guys who'd shoot their way into trading rights if you didn't let them in, or fight to contest ownership of a valued prize. This became forgotten when they were adopted as lovably unlovable types with a zillion foibles on Deep Space Nine, but originally their first-class heavy ships were supposed to be able to go toe-to-toe with a Galaxy. Hard to imagine the Ferengi as we now think of them building ships comparable to a D'Deridex, isn't it?

Most sensible explanation is that, like the Cardassians, the Ferengi have had dealings with telepaths before, and developed techniques for resisting telepathy (for the cardassians, it was to fight telepaths. For the ferengi, it was to haggle with them). Hence, there are individual ferengi who have had the anti-psi training, and other individuals who have not.
Seems likely. Telepathy doesn't have to be bad for business, but it's incredibly bad for the way the Ferengi usually do business.

Besides the Andorians (4 genders) and Apiata (Queen, Drone, maybe additional) are all the other members and affiliates male/female races?
Yes; as is the case in canon Star Trek, gender-binary species are pretty much the norm. There are a few exceptions in canon, one at least, but we only see them as one-offs.

Oh and for the Apiata which ones would be joining Starfleet?
Queens almost certainly wouldn't join Starfleet. A queen's job description involves running a colony, but also (and this is important) mothering the colony. As in, literally, being the biological mother of the individuals in that colony.

Every Apiata 'queen' (the biological sex) who doesn't reside in a colony as its 'queen' (the social role) represents an entire Apiata community that will just... never exist. Or a community that with literally wither away into nothingness and die out due to no new babies being born. A highly localized act of pre-emptive ethnic cleansing, you might say.

Individual drones or workers leaving their home colonies doesn't necessarily cause a problem for those who stay behind. Queens doing so very much does. The best case would be a 'younger daughter' queen whose older sister is going to step into the Queen Mother's shoes... But there would normally be an expectation that such young queens would found new colonies and live among them, possibly taking some of the workers and drones from the mother colony to help get things set up.

So I don't expect to see Apiata queens in Starfleet. The gender roles in Apiata society, which have very compelling biological basis, may be a hell of a lot more empowering to queens... But they're in many ways even more restrictive on queens than they are on drones and workers.

Workers, not drones. Drones are a separate gender.

I can't find the post, but @Iron Wolf has a great omake where an Apiata officer talks about it.
Right. Apiata have three sexes: queens who produce ova, drones who bear embryos to term, and workers who are sterile and have only vestigial reproductive tracts.

Superficially they all seem present as (more or less) female(ish) by the standards of most humanoid species, so "bee girls" isn't an unreasonable description, but it's a bit tricky to parse. The trickiness cuts both ways, too- for example, my one Apiata character (this has never come up and the two may well never meet) thinks of Nash (an Andorian zhen) as a drone. And the family life of most humanoid species just confuses the hell out of her because "sexuality" in general is not a thing for 90% of her species and "family" means your moms plus like 100 sisters (and aunts and nieces from the previous and next generation). Having lots and lots of really tiny family units is just... eye-wateringly strange, and the fact that she can't even remotely comprehend how to handle this is a major contributing factor to her social anxiety not really having gotten better.

Poor Dizzy. :(

Incidentally, Izzidierra, that queen who had a loopy crush on Nash for years, may have been thinking of Nash as a drone too... which might just explain a lot about her behavior towards Nash. :D

You see "defective" workers in non-command regular and EC roles and you see queens in EC command.

Apatia queens are pretty bullshit leadership-wise. Those O-1 entries on a Queenship? That means they've got one or two, maybe three queens running an Excelsior-scale platform.
As others have noted, I wouldn't chalk this up to Apiata queens having superior leadership skills. I'd chalk it up to Apiata workers being really, really good followers- and adaptable enough to make good middle management; see "Ozzira" for reference.

That doesn't explain why they didn't appear before ratification when we were explicitly doing disaffected workers, nor does it explain why they always qualify for EC and not the regular fleet.
Honestly I think that was just an effect of the first generation of Apiata worker recruits who'd actually made it through Starfleet Academy as officer candidates and who'd "connected" well enough with Starfleet culture to make it in the officer track.

Honestly, while your interpretation may be correct as a representation of what Oneiros has been thinking... if so, I disagree with Oneiros. Simply because I see no reason that Apiata queens would all make super-duper naval officers. It doesn't make sense; they show no signs of being more intelligent, organized, or otherwise superior beings compared to the common run of galactic sapients.

Well that's the question. Are we assuming that the Queen in command is the mother of the entire crew? I actually think that's unlikely. Workers have their individual talents and skills just like everyone else, so every large enterprise (such as a starship crew) can't be made up of literally only one colony of queen-mother and children.

I think one of the big breakthroughs that allowed the Apiata to advance to interstellar civilization is that they found ways to allow Workers to be ordered around by the queens of other colonies. Once they're able to shift workers around like that, they can achieve the necessary degree of labor flexibility to run an interstellar civilization. So most workers have Queen-I-work-for and also Queen-my-mother (that they are genetically predisposed to obey). Then they also have "High Queens" who have political rank and whom they also have an obligation to obey.
Nested hierarchies of queens probably play a large role in this, as do contract labor arrangements, and I suspect the process started some time in their Iron Age, maybe even the Neolithic. I would further speculate that all Apiata queens exude a level of 'obey me' pheromones and instincts that trigger all Apiata workers to a degree of compliance and deference... It's just that any given Apiata worker imprints especially hard on their own queen.

Also, nice avatar picture.

As for the EC offiers, maybe that's made of of especially adventurous Queens who are willing to leave most of their children behind and go off and have spacefaring adventures with only a few of their actual family around them.
I wouldn't assume that we get more queens than we do workers who just happen to actually be officer material. Workers outnumber queens huge-to-one, there would be intense social pressure on queens to stay around and keep having babies*, and we KNOW that some Apiata workers are competent to manage other workers, even large numbers thereof.

*(until/unless queens hit a menopause-equivalent, at least)
 
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So a brief blurb on what I am using to generate characters- still need to finish some parts (Career/Study Path, Quirks and other Personality aspects).


Academy Character Generation for To Boldly Go

Number of Characters


Each year roll d5+1. Characters 5 and 6 for a year roll a d5 to see what year of the academy they are in

1-3 1st year

4-5 2nd to 4th year roll a d10 as below, if two or more years have the same number put the earlier year first (so if 2nd and 4th year were tied for fewest students 1-5 would be year 2 and 6-8 would be year 4)

1-5 year with fewest students

6-8 year with 2nd fewest students

9-10 year with most students

Race

Roll a dX where X is the highest number in the table below

  1. Human

  2. Vulcan

  3. Andorian

  4. Tellarite

  5. Amarkia

  6. Betazoid

  7. Caitian

  8. Rigellian

  9. Apiata

  10. Indorian

  11. Affiliate
If 11 roll on table below:

Roll a d4
1-3 300+ Affiliate
4 Affiliate
 
Number of Characters

Each year roll d5+1. Characters 5 and 6 for a year roll a d5 to see what year of the academy they are in

I don't really get how this translates to what is below.

1-3 1st year

4-5 2nd to 4th year roll a d10 as below, if two or more years have the same number put the earlier year first (so if 2nd and 4th year were tied for fewest students 1-5 would be year 2 and 6-8 would be year 4)

1-5 year with fewest students

6-8 year with 2nd fewest students

9-10 year with most students

*Straightens his dunce cap*
 
I don't really get how this translates to what is below.



*Straightens his dunce cap*
First I am rolling d5+1 to see how many characters join the group that year during the academy. the first 4 each year are always in the first year of the academy, however the 5th and 6th have a chance to have already been at the academy for a year or more. For the 5th and 6th character in a year I roll a d5, on a 1 to 3 they are a first year like the other 4, on a 4 or 5 they are a 2nd to 4th year. For that I use the d10 weighted to give preference to the smallest class size in the group.

2301-5 all 1st years
2302-4 all 1st years
2303-4 all 1st years
2304-rolled 1d5+1 got a 5. Rolled a d5 for the 5th character and got a 4 so they are a 2nd to 4th year. For the d10 1-5 2nd year, 6-8 3rd year and 9-10 4th year. Rolled a 9 so the 5th character is a 4th year.
4 1st years and 1 4th year.

I set it up that way so there is a minimum of 2 1st years, but if I roll high there is a chance that some of them are not 1st years with a bigger chance of being part of the class with the fewest members in it. Doesn't always happen but it hopefully some what balances class size.

I went and generated groups for years 2301 to 2315, have 59 total, and excluding Apiata and Andorians had a gender breakdown of 23 to 24.

Edit:
Also modified text to:

Each year roll d5+1 for number of characters joining the group that year. If you roll a 5 or 6 for total number of characters then for characters 5 and 6 roll a d5 to see what year of the academy they are in
 
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So I don't expect to see Apiata queens in Starfleet. The gender roles in Apiata society, which have very compelling biological basis, may be a hell of a lot more empowering to queens... But they're in many ways even more restrictive on queens than they are on drones and workers.

Except in canon Izziderra took a year off to bum around on the Enterprise. And while that caused a lot of distress, it seems like it's mostly because she was a political leader who was shirking her responsibilities, not that there was a biological meltdown going on. I think you may be way underestimating the work-arounds the Apiata have and how much they've managed to bend the gender roles you seem to think are so set in stone.

Maybe a "modern queen" is perfectly capable of stashing a bunch of eggs for indefinite storage and use by her drones to produce children without her being around at all, managing her hive remotely for years. Perhaps they'd react in horror at your antiquated visions of biological determinism, and view the days when a queen couldn't be "out and about" on a remote career as the horror stories of more primitive times before modern reproductive technology freed queens to cut their cords. Might as well demand that drones stay barefoot in the kitchen!

Could be. I really like the idea that, sure, Apiata queens can and do join the Explorer Corps and we might well have one as a captain someday!
 
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So a brief blurb on what I am using to generate characters- still need to finish some parts (Career/Study Path, Quirks and other Personality aspects).

Academy Character Generation for To Boldly Go

Is it your plan to automatically generate a bunch of characters and then try to put all of them in a long list into a post so they're technically "omake characters" and you can force this vision of species-balance on everyone? Or what are you even doing?
 
Is it your plan to automatically generate a bunch of characters and then try to put all of them in a long list into a post so they're technically "omake characters" and you can force this vision of species-balance on everyone? Or what are you even doing?
I am planning on writing slice of life omakes for academy characters starting in 2301. Kind of a Community or Glee but more serious and with new members joining the group each year. Also after they graduate from the academy I won't be following them any longer. Part of it is to get me writing and the other part is I want to try and look at how what is happening in the Federation is coloring the view of those in the Academy.

Also this way if anyone needs a background character there should be a good supply of those once I get going and catch up in years. For example some of them are likely to go into Starfleet Medical upon graduation and this way if someone is writing an omake and needs to have someone from Starfleet Medical we have a character available to use.
 
Honestly, while your interpretation may be correct as a representation of what Oneiros has been thinking... if so, I disagree with Oneiros. Simply because I see no reason that Apiata queens would all make super-duper naval officers. It doesn't make sense; they show no signs of being more intelligent, organized, or otherwise superior beings compared to the common run of galactic sapients.

This assumes that command is a skill outlined solely by inherent attributes (indeed, it assumes that these are inherent attributes rather than ones that can be encouraged or taught). The simple truth is that Apiata queens are born to lead; they know it, their society knows it, and both ends have a vested interest in preparing them for leadership in every possible way. A queen who is a poor leader is a failure as a queen. The Apiata have been breeding and nurturing queens for their command presence for as long as they've been a sentient species, intentionally or otherwise.

This plays in backwards, too. Apiata queens who go to the Academy are intensely motivated to assume leadership positions, as in their society queens are leaders and successful queens are successful leaders. That's just the way it is for them. This leads to a group of cadets who would literally prefer to wash out (or even die) attempting what they can't do rather than take any path that doesn't end with an officer posting in the Explorer Corps.
 
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Currently I have the following for study/career paths in the academy, though I don't think all are correct and I feel as if I am missing some paths:

  1. Tactical
  2. Command
  3. Engineering
  4. Medical
  5. Science
  6. Operations
  7. Communications
  8. Security
Some questions, would command be a path offered or would that be something once you have graduated.
Would Engineering cover those going into shipyard construction and mining operations?
Where do those training in administrative functions and logistics go?
Should intelligence be a track in the Academy?
 
I went and generated groups for years 2301 to 2315, have 59 total, and excluding Apiata and Andorians had a gender breakdown of 23 to 24.
Just so long as you don't try to randomly generate entire Academy classes or anything; I want to retain the right to make up my own characters. :p

Also, two points. One, have you considered weighting the probability distribution in keeping with the number of crew various planets actually produce? It might be hard to do that for times in the past, but I imagine you could do it for the present. I'm pretty sure not all member worlds contribute equally.

Two, bear in mind that we start getting high-volume crew input from member worlds immediately after they join the Federation, not three or four years afterwards. This suggests that normally, we start seeing "member level" rates of cadets coming into the Academy from a given world well before the time at which they actually join up.

For instance, the Amarki joined the Federation in 2306, and we started getting lots of crew from them immediately thereafter. This strongly suggests that there were significant numbers of Amarki showing up at the Academy in 2303 or so. Likewise, I'm pretty sure there are already lots of Gaeni, Qloathi, and so on coming to the Academy, even if they're frozen as 500-level affiliates until the membership moratorium expires.

Yes, I know this raises cause-and-effect issues, but the alternative raises MORE issues, at least if we assume that nearly everyone who comes into Starfleet from a given planet passes through the Academy itself.

Except in canon Izziderra took a year off to bum around on the Enterprise. And while that caused a lot of distress, it seems like it's mostly because she was a political leader who was shirking her responsibilities, not that there was a biological meltdown going on. I think you may be way underestimating the work-arounds the Apiata have and how much they've managed to bend the gender roles you seem to think are so set in stone.
One year wouldn't make much of a difference in terms of motherhood and colony life. Taking a queen out of circulation for long enough to actually have a career far away from her colony has greater impact.

Plus, Izzidierra was a high status queen, so the political consequences of her absence from the planet Irrizzizza were greater than the consequences of her absence from her own personal colony. She's "Queen" as in "ruler" to a very large population, but "queen" as in "mother" to only a tiny population.

Maybe a "modern queen" is perfectly capable of stashing a bunch of eggs for indefinite storage and use by her drones to produce children without her being around at all, managing her hive remotely for years.
Given the portrayals we've seen to date, I suspect there'd be a lot of "umm... okay... it's your colony..." and foot-shuffling by people who are too polite to say that

Perhaps they'd react in horror at your antiquated visions of biological determinism, and view the days when a queen couldn't be "out and about" on a remote career as the horror stories of more primitive times before modern reproductive technology freed queens to cut their cords.
See, developed countries have 'atomized' societies. Each individual rattles around as soon as they reach maturity, until they settle into a spot where they can fit. That spot may or may not be anywhere near where they grew up, the level of familial attachment is entirely up to them, and people don't really think of themselves as members of 'clans' or other extended social units.

Most people are in a real sense on their own. The only really close social ties they have are to a spouse or quasi-spouse, their children if any, one or both parents, and a short list of friends they met on their own.

The thing about Apiata society is that it's just not atomized. Period. Speaking on the whole of the 90%-plus share of the population, the basic unit is for lack of a better term a 'molecule,' not an atom. Because each individual is part of a family unit that is by definition very large, and they care about that. This, more than anything else, is the thing that makes them aliens. Because the only individuals willing to outright desert that social structure, where "you" define yourself as an isolated monad rather than part of a larger whole... The ones who do that are the ones who in some way deviate from the biological norm for their species. They're not just being unconventional, they're strange by the standards of the species, in quite rare ways.

As such, when we talk about queen behavior, I'd bet on there being significant social inertia acting to tie queens to their colonies somewhere.

It's not that queens can't decide they want to do something different. It's that there are dozens of people looking to them for personal leadership, who really care about them on that level, and whose entire family literally falls apart if anything happens to them. People who would probably react just fine to "I'm moving to another planet to go fly spaceships," but who'd reply with "Oooh! We're all going to go live on a spaceship?"

This means that queens have a huge list of possible career options- but "go be a spaceship officer" is relatively low on the list, unless they groom themselves for that career early in life before they have a colony of their own. And that unless their desire to go work on spaceships is much stronger than their impulse to start a family, they'll probably want to be a spaceship captain within the (apparent) existing Apiata paradigm where a queen is captain of a ship and much if not all of the crew is her own colony.

Might as well demand that drones stay barefoot in the kitchen!
From what I've heard in various posts, there appear to be at least some Apiata cultures where that (or something like it) is the norm. "Drone rights" are actually debated on a nontrivial level, apparently, and it seems like euthanasia was a socially accepted answer in some parts of their society for 'defective' workers who aren't sufficiently attached to their own queen.

And I don't think this is a case where the Apiata are going to linearly evolve away from their 'traditional' model towards a model indistinguishable from the one we have where extended families just sort of... drift apart and nobody thinks it's wrong. It's not so much biological determinism as it is that biology affects which kinds of solutions to your problems seem desirable, or even possible. And for that matter, which of them are even problems that need 'solving' at all.

Could be. I really like the idea that, sure, Apiata queens can and do join the Explorer Corps and we might well have one as a captain someday!
I can see it happening, but what I don't expect to see is Apiata queens showing up in the Explorer Corps in greater numbers than Apiata workers. Given the relative numbers of the two sexes in Apiata society, that says rather... unfortunate things about biological determinism all by itself.
 
Just so long as you don't try to randomly generate entire Academy classes or anything; I want to retain the right to make up my own characters. :p

Also, two points. One, have you considered weighting the probability distribution in keeping with the number of crew various planets actually produce? It might be hard to do that for times in the past, but I imagine you could do it for the present. I'm pretty sure not all member worlds contribute equally.

Two, bear in mind that we start getting high-volume crew input from member worlds immediately after they join the Federation, not three or four years afterwards. This suggests that normally, we start seeing "member level" rates of cadets coming into the Academy from a given world well before the time at which they actually join up.

For instance, the Amarki joined the Federation in 2306, and we started getting lots of crew from them immediately thereafter. This strongly suggests that there were significant numbers of Amarki showing up at the Academy in 2303 or so. Likewise, I'm pretty sure there are already lots of Gaeni, Qloathi, and so on coming to the Academy, even if they're frozen as 500-level affiliates until the membership moratorium expires.

Yes, I know this raises cause-and-effect issues, but the alternative raises MORE issues, at least if we assume that nearly everyone who comes into Starfleet from a given planet passes through the Academy itself.
Weighted average would be nice but would add more complexity then I have and academy expansions would throw off the numbers. As it is right now there is a small chance that characters can come from an affiliate with it being more likely to be from an affiliate that has integrated (300+). Also I am generating a max of 6 per year which is far below academy class sizes so there should be plenty of room for characters of your own. Ironically all but 1 that were generated from affiliate rolls ended up being from then affiliates that are now members. The one that is not is from Risa.

Part of my work into this was assembling a document tracking when each race become an affiliate, integrated (300+) and became a member. That allowed me to roll for past years and see who was an affiliate and who was a member.

I am considering expanding the range for affiliates from 1 to 2 so that it would be a d12 now for race with 1 through 10 being the member races and rolling an 11 or 12 would be affiliate as opposed to the 11 it is right now.
 
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