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From what I can see, the Stingray currently has a Defense rating of 12. So that means as-is the new ship dies even faster when hit than the Stingray, which feels like a good reason to improve it.

OTOH, this only improves it to Stingray levels, so if we feel like the Stingray isn't tough enough to survive at its current Defense that feels like a good reason to not sacrifice the aft phaser and Warp speed for a Defense boost that in practice is not really going to help it survive.
 
Kartr_Kana said:
Definitely need the cruise option so that this white elephant can keep up with the heavier ships in the fleet.
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Listen, I understand there being disappointment, but I don't think this counts as a white elephant.
Kartr_Kana said:
Old phase cannons are 2 industry and the new ones are 3 correct?
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Pulsed phase cannons are actually also 2i, so that's a very nice little bonus to the prototype, along with its increased damage. Possibly because they're not a majorly advanced upgrade to the old cannons?
 
Can't wait for us to take the external ones then for the next round to result in us not taking the aft phase cannons anyway to save on industry. :V
 
Internal seems the play here. No reason to leave a vulnerable part when the thunder child can only go 3.6 anyway.
 
Jensaarai said:
damn this thing tiny as shit
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All the better. Harder to hit, especially with its speed/maneuverability. Makes it easier and cheaper to build.

Also makes it an excellent escort for heavier ships. Harder to justify focusing fire on such fast, smaller ships instead of the big threat alongside it...but it can still hurl some hard-hitting torpedoes into your face and send some pulsed phases cannons to remind you that it's still a threat too.

In time of war, you make do, and given how Earth got hit with a cobalt nuke and Alpha Centauri got genocided, I imagine we will not find any shortage of volunteers for cramped living conditions in exchange for taking the fight to the enemy.

Post-war, it might not be a popular posting, but there will be some nostalgia and prestige for serving on a war veteran that gave good service. And if it's on garrison duty, there will be frequent chances for shore leave.
 
Jensaarai said:
Listen, I understand there being disappointment, but I don't think this counts as a white elephant.

Pulsed phase cannons are actually also 2i, so that's a very nice little bonus to the prototype, along with its increased damage. Possibly because they're not a majorly advanced upgrade to the old cannons?
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Eh, it's no better than a Stingray with Photon Torpedoes and enough cruise speed to keep up. For... At least 2 industry more than an upgraded Stingray would be. Plus it's smaller so even less able to take a hit, and even more uncomfortable to serve in over long stretches.

Definitely feels like a war emergency build by the competing company, that will be mothballed after the war while the larger vessel gets modernized to continue serving.
 
Are there any canon Starfleet ships with internal nacelles? I don't think it matters that much either way, so I may just vote for the one that's less common.
 
Kartr_Kana said:
Definitely need the cruise option so that this white elephant can keep up with the heavier ships in the fleet.


Old phase cannons are 2 industry and the new ones are 3 correct? Which would bring the net cost for new build Hulls to [Number of Phase Weapons] × (3—2). At least with regards to upgrading the phase weaponry of a notional refit version.

The current cost is 30, not including optional phasers. So it's probably going to hit 39 industry before all is said and done.

In ENT they were able to simply add a Photon Torpedo launcher into the armory space between the existing spatial torpedo launchers. No reason we couldn't pull the old launchers to free up deck space and then rebuild the armory with a pair of photon torpedo launchers.

I'm not sure why you think the current design will be more agile than Stingray...? They both have the flattened rear for more impulse engines. The arrowhead may have slightly less mass, but that also means slightly less mass to tank a hit.

But it's too late now. We're locked into an undergunned tin can.
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The whole idea was to have a relatively cheap escort that replaces the Stingray but with better firepower while doing away with the unnecessary elements of the Stingray for the war--its high warp speed (especially cruise), emphasis on weapons coverage over burst damage, and better crew quarters.

This design seems to be heading in that direction quite well. Better technology means much better firepower. Warp speed is right where we need it to be without waste. Sublight speed is excellent. And the durability is going to be equal while presenting a smaller target; without shield tech, these ships were never going to be tough without making them much too industry-heavy to be worth building in the first place.

The Thunderchild is our tank. The Enterprise is our heavy cavalry. This ship will be our escort--supplementing firepower and dividing enemy attention, acting as a force multiplier for our heavier ships. If the enemy chooses to focus fire on them, the heavier ships will punish them heavily, and vice-versa.

A single aft cannon isn't going to mean much when it also means a less resilient ship; these ships are going for burst damage anyway, and their maneuverability will mitigate the lack of an aft cannon anyway. The aft cannon on the Stingray didn't count for much--remember, against the shielded Romulan warships, burst damage is key. For our larger and less agile ships, weapons coverage meant more because we couldn't guarantee bringing forward weapons to bear. For the arrowhead-shaped speedster, that isn't really an issue. It doesn't have the durability to last long enough for a single rear cannon to matter.
 
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7th Hex said:
From what I can see, the Stingray currently has a Defense rating of 12. So that means as-is the new ship dies even faster when hit than the Stingray, which feels like a good reason to improve it.

OTOH, this only improves it to Stingray levels, so if we feel like the Stingray isn't tough enough to survive at its current Defense that feels like a good reason to not sacrifice the aft phaser and Warp speed for a Defense boost that in practice is not really going to help it survive.
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The main request for this project was something more effective than the Stingray at taking down warbirds, which I think we're on our way to accomplishing.
Sayle said:
But when it takes two Stingrays to be comfortable with taking on a Romulan warbird and you're coming up against force concentrations that equal or exceed your own, something has to give. The order comes down from on high with a simple directive: give Starfleet a replacement for the Stingray, preferably as cheap but definitely more effective.
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This is also why I wanted that third torpedo tube, but I still think it has enough punch to warrant suicide runs like the poor Stingray's been doing.

I do think though, that we're unlikely to have a numerical superiority against the Romulans, even with cheap vessels like this. So the idea that they'll always be moving in cohesive wolf-packs and able to cover each other's aft might be a bit presumptuous about how future battles are gonna go. We might see these in dual-flight groups more than anything bigger.
 
Kartr_Kana said:
Definitely feels like a war emergency build by the competing company, that will be mothballed after the war while the larger vessel gets modernized to continue serving.
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I do worry about the post-war life of this craft with how lean we've made it, yeah. It could have use for system defense, or maybe working in conjunction with Stingrays for patrol/pirate duty, but I don't think it'll ever have much of a role beyond that with its incredibly compact nature.
 
UlseDovThur said:
Lower warp speed that doesn't matter in a fight and that wouldn't be used that much anyway as everything needs to keep pace with the Thunderchild during fleet movements.

Lower firepower that we probably won't pick up anyway as the whole point of this design is for it to be constantly pointed toward the enemy.
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*delurking*
It matters for the conduct of the war.

It means that Starfleet can send NX-class cruisers on scouting missions and deep strike attacks against Romulan logistics bases and supply ships with an escort of Selachiis that can actually keep up with them at maximum cruise, making for bigger raiding forces that the Romulans have to react to in the deployment of their warships, putting them on the defensive.

It means that task forces composed entirely of Project Selachii ships can probe forward into the conflict zone and evade pursuit at will, forcing adverse deployment decisions on the Romulans.

It means that you can cover friendly space and your own logistics lines with fewer Selachii-class patrol ships, freeing up additional forces for offensive operations.
All of this forces strategic changes on a Romulan force that is currently largely composed of Warp 3 ships.

That kind of pressure shaping the enemy response is how you win wars.


Remember, you currently only have one Thunderchild at the moment.
Meantime, Starfleet has been building an NX and five Stingrays every year, a build tempo that is likely to be sustained or increase with the Selachiis.

The Thunderchild matters for major fleet engagements, but in the day to day cut and thrust that makes up the majority of military operations, its the NXs and the frigates that you'll see.


EDIT
Just so its clear, Im advocating that we vote for []External Nacelles
The strategic speed matters.
 
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Enthusiast#117 said:
[ ] Internal Nacelles (-Optional Aft Cannon, Defense Rating 10 -> 12) [Warp 3.6 Cruise]

The Refitted Stingray has a defense of 12, and a Warp Cruise of 3.4
This option will make the speed improvement over the Stingray more marginal, but will keep it just as survivable.
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Yeah, good point. I vaguely remembered the Stingray as having 10, but it does indeed have 12. So let's match that.

Kartr_Kana said:
Eh, it's no better than a Stingray with Photon Torpedoes and enough cruise speed to keep up. For... At least 2 industry more than an upgraded Stingray would be. Plus it's smaller so even less able to take a hit, and even more uncomfortable to serve in over long stretches.

Definitely feels like a war emergency build by the competing company, that will be mothballed after the war while the larger vessel gets modernized to continue serving.
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It's more maneuverable and has the means to put 3 guns on target vs the Stingray that can put 2 guns on target.

And it does allow the entire fleet to cruise at the speed of a Thunderchild (46c vs 39c with the Stingray), which the Stingray plain can't due to being an aging design.

Edit : Better warp speed would be quite nice, but the immediate mission of this design is to get into fleet battles. Survivability matters more than strategic speed, which is still an improvement over the Stingray.
 
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So funny idea.
The Romulan reaction to the Thunderchild was to throw everything they could at it.

What are they going to think about these ships even smaller than the stingray.

If I had to guess they'll be thinking we've gotten desperate to pump out as many ships as possible, or all our industry is on the Thunderchild class so we can't afford to even keep making Stingrays.

I'm just imagining the first battle they appear in the Romulans try focusing on the NXs and Thunderchilds which have been the real threat so far.
 
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Sayle said:
Also the Defiant. Kind of for the Steamrunner?
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I love the style of the Defiant--it lacks the distinct style and grandeur of traditional Trek Federation ships, but it feels very appropriate and homely for a practical, efficient warship or problem solver rather than an explorer or science ship.

I do have to ask, though: the industry cost for such a small ship seems much too high. IRL, capital ships cost way more resources and industry than the mere increase in tonnage would suggest from a destoyer-sized ship. This is still worth it because capital-scale ships offer unique benefits, but that's the tradeoff.

Here, a tiny ship somehow costs a quarter of the dreadnought, and is going to be roughly equal in cost to the Stingray despite being much smaller. This already gets people to feel displeased with the Selaachi because they feel like it's a waste of industry, and they're not exactly wrong considering how much more a difference a Thunderchild makes compared to four Stingrays (or four of the Selaachi). For something meant to be efficiently mass-produced, this is just way too high an industry cost for its size.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
IRL, capital ships cost way more resources and industry than the mere increase in tonnage would suggest from a destoyer-sized ship. This is still worth it because capital-scale ships offer unique benefits, but that's the tradeoff.
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Eeeeeeh. It depends. An Iowa class Battleships did cost roughly as much as 16-17 Fletcher, while displacing as much as something like 25-26 of them.

4 Stingrays displace 15% more than a Thunderchild while costing 22% more.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
The whole idea was to have a relatively cheap escort that replaces the Stingray but with better firepower while doing away with the unnecessary elements of the Stingray for the war--its high warp speed (especially cruise), emphasis on weapons coverage over burst damage, and better crew quarters.

This design seems to be heading in that direction quite well. Better technology means much better firepower. Warp speed is right where we need it to be without waste. Sublight speed is excellent. And the durability is going to be equal while presenting a smaller target; without shield tech, these ships were never going to be tough without making them much too industry-heavy to be worth building in the first place.

The Thunderchild is our tank. The Enterprise is our heavy cavalry. This ship will be our escort--supplementing firepower and dividing enemy attention, acting as a force multiplier for our heavier ships. If the enemy chooses to focus fire on them, the heavier ships will punish them heavily, and vice-versa.

A single aft cannon isn't going to mean much when it also means a less resilient ship; these ships are going for burst damage anyway, and their maneuverability will mitigate the lack of an aft cannon anyway. The aft cannon on the Stingray didn't count for much--remember, against the shielded Romulan warships, burst damage is key. For our larger and less agile ships, weapons coverage meant more because we couldn't guarantee bringing forward weapons to bear. For the arrowhead-shaped speedster, that isn't really an issue. It doesn't have the durability to last long enough for a single rear cannon to matter.
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Actually this thing needs higher cruise speed than the Stingray so that it isn't keeping the rest of the fleet at slow warp speeds.

It's smaller and more cramped than the Stingray, so most likely has worse living conditions.

Rear phaser isn't useful anyway so who cares that it has the option.

It's actually more fragile than the Stingray based on the defense rating, unless it takes the internal Nacelles and then it will be barely equal. However since it's smaller, more cramped and more compact, a single hit is going to do more damage overall.

What this thing needed was offense and it didn't get as much of that as it probably should have.

inirlan said:
It's more maneuverable and has the means to put 3 guns on target vs the Stingray that can put 2 guns on target.

And it does allow the entire fleet to cruise at the speed of a Thunderchild (46c vs 39c with the Stingray), which the Stingray plain can't due to being an aging design.
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The Stingray can already put 3 guns on target...

And yes, I have noted that the higher cruise speed is the only thing this really brings over an upgraded Stingray. Which is hardly an aging design, it's only 13 years old at this point. That's barely out of the warship smell phase!

Edit: it's survivability is no better and possibly worse than the Stingray... 10 or 12 vs 12.
 
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