Starfleet Design Bureau

I'm pretty sure that what was being rationed was energy. Replicators are matter-energy converters after all, and antimatter is not easy to come by for a lone starship.
No, because they did a whole thing where Janeway had a sextant replicated for her and she guilted over if she should return it to the replicator to turn it into something more useful or if she should keep it for the symbolism.

That makes no sense if energy was what was being rationed.
 
@Sayle Is training and staffing of our ships a thing you do, want to, or intend to model? is that something we need to worry about?

Good grief, no. My read on Starfleet is that as time progresses it becomes more and more elite - the Federation grows faster than Starfleet numbers do. In early TNG they seem to be outright selecting for moral character as well as expertise with their entry tests. They want people who are incredibly driven and intelligent, but also have an ethos of self-sacrifice and service.

While I'm sure that sheer determination and work ethic can get you into the non-commissioned track (because those are things Starfleet values), Starfleet Academy into the officer track seems very much a case of natural gift as well as the right attitude. Probably the top percent of the population to make the cut.
 
Good grief, no. My read on Starfleet is that as time progresses it becomes more and more elite - the Federation grows faster than Starfleet numbers do. In early TNG they seem to be outright selecting for moral character as well as expertise with their entry tests. They want people who are incredibly driven and intelligent, but also have an ethos of self-sacrifice and service.

While I'm sure that sheer determination and work ethic can get you into the non-commissioned track (because those are things Starfleet values), Starfleet Academy into the officer track seems very much a case of natural gift as well as the right attitude. Probably the top percent of the population to make the cut.
On the one hand canon seems to strongly agree with you. On the other hand, Section 31 exists too. Kind of an odd contradiction that the writers never really reconciled. Particularly since Section 31 seems to go way past the "necessary pragmatists" mark and straight into the "morally alarming" territory without the pragmatism or characterization to make them make sense.
 
A dedicated class of training ships (if of a low number produced) might be an interesting project in the future. They often play a diplomatic role when on cadet cruises, and at least a few of them are sufficiently militarised that on the outbreak of war thry can be slotted into the navy and carry out regular duties.

Like the Deutschland of the cold war era.
 
On the one hand canon seems to strongly agree with you. On the other hand, Section 31 exists too. Kind of an odd contradiction that the writers never really reconciled. Particularly since Section 31 seems to go way past the "necessary pragmatists" mark and straight into the "morally alarming" territory without the pragmatism or characterization to make them make sense.
I personally think section 13 only makes sense if the original members self radicalized once already part of Starfleet. From there they worked to radicalize others and use patronage to push Starfleet to accept and promote people they otherwise wouldn't.

Basically you can't ensure the rot never gets in when the rot starts in the house.

All it takes is one or two Admirals who radicalize post taking their positions.
 
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A dedicated class of training ships (if of a low number produced) might be an interesting project in the future. They often play a diplomatic role when on cadet cruises, and at least a few of them are sufficiently militarised that on the outbreak of war thry can be slotted into the navy and carry out regular duties.

Like the Deutschland of the cold war era.
Possible to do if they're made using non-strategic resources at the cost of performance. So more like civilian-grade warp cores and nacelles, older or surplus weapons systems and shields. Not something to be expected to take on missions other than just getting trainees some experience with voyages and their jobs.
 
Possible to do if they're made using non-strategic resources at the cost of performance. So more like civilian-grade warp cores and nacelles, older or surplus weapons systems and shields. Not something to be expected to take on missions other than just getting trainees some experience with voyages and their jobs.
It's something you do with ships from last generation in the period between when they are replaced by something better and when you stop having enough of them being scrapped that parts to keep them in repair get logistically difficult.

It's also what we do with Archers. A bunch of "captains" of various Archers are not really ranked for the position, but there are so many Archers and the higher ranked captains don't want them, so it opens up a lot of command positions to train people in starship captaining 101.
 
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Possible to do if they're made using non-strategic resources at the cost of performance. So more like civilian-grade warp cores and nacelles, older or surplus weapons systems and shields. Not something to be expected to take on missions other than just getting trainees some experience with voyages and their jobs.
This is outrageous, Red Squad deserves a fully specced Federation class heavy cruiser of their very own for Starfleet's future elite leaders to prove their mettle.
 
On the one hand canon seems to strongly agree with you. On the other hand, Section 31 exists too. Kind of an odd contradiction that the writers never really reconciled. Particularly since Section 31 seems to go way past the "necessary pragmatists" mark and straight into the "morally alarming" territory without the pragmatism or characterization to make them make sense.
Here's Sayle's post on Section 31:
Section 31 is a rogue division that operates in cells, agents are individually recruited by other agents, and the only reason they still exist is that so long as they aren't stunningly outrageous Starfleet Intelligence doesn't try to obliterate them as they Sovereign Citizen their way through the galaxy. This idea of them being an agency that has it's own minefielded headquarters, personal jet-black commbadges or a fleet of ships is just profoundly fucking dumb.

DS9 basically introduced them as amoral extremists with collaborators in high places, and then people who didn't understand Star Trek wrote Discovery and they've been written into canon as some sort of official black-ops division because lazy writers like Jack Bauer-style extremists who 'do what needs to be done'.
 
Whilst you do often get older ships turned into training ships as they fall from relevance I'm talking about a dedicated class built for thst purpose and able to serve with the fleet should war come.

Like the Deutschland-class, or the Japanese training ships Tenryū and Kashima (whilst less armed compared to the old Deutschland it'd be fairly easy to militarised them, with the only hard part, the gun, already being present)
 
Whilst you do often get older ships turned into training ships as they fall from relevance I'm talking about a dedicated class built for thst purpose and able to serve with the fleet should war come.

Like the Deutschland-class, or the Japanese training ships Tenryū and Kashima (whilst less armed compared to the old Deutschland it'd be fairly easy to militarised them, with the only hard part, the gun, already being present)
Maybe a workhorse basic hull designed so that it's very easy to produce new variants? You lose on efficiency on each role, but a new small research ship becomes a new loadout for the multipurpose boat. Need something new and medical? Boat. Engineering? Boat. A bit of everything for the cadets to learn on?

Ideally a basic hull designed so that it's relatively easy to swap out modules during construction. Ideally with enough commonality that it becomes universal and decent.

probably not viable, and not just because it would become a cadet dreadnought.
 
Why not just make our own bird of prey knockoff then?

Small, cheap. Take the micro-warp core and mini-deflector that SanFran developed and fit it into an even smaller package.
 
If you want to go really small, something like a TOS/TMP version of the SS Raven might be an idea. It'd be able to simulate the functioning of a starship, is big enough to house a decent crew of cadets/trainers (probably, DITL pegs it as somewhat larger than the conestoga class/type) but also small enough it's not too much of a drain on resources.

Could probably also produce some as a replacement for the Constable, and also some for starflert associated academies training officers/enlisted (kinda like how the Archer class is/was used as both a patrol boat and training craft for the Royal Naval Reserve and University Royal Naval Units - training establishments that recruit officer cadets from a university or a number of universities, usually concentrated in one geographical area, who then go on to become part of the RNR once graduating).
 
Why not just make our own bird of prey knockoff then?

Small, cheap. Take the micro-warp core and mini-deflector that SanFran developed and fit it into an even smaller package.
The Klingons and Romulans can do it because they have a high tech base, low industrial base. It makes sense to compromise a lot in favor of cost because they are a reasonable match even with the tradeoffs.

It doesn't make sense for the Federation who's advantage is a huge 20 species wide industrial base. Romulans and Klingons out tech us, but we can afford to make ships twice as big and expensive as theirs and STILL build enough ships to defend ourselves.

If anything we should build a fuckoff huge dreadnaught because just existing it is going to force our enemies to change their behavior towards bigger more expensive, and thus fewer, ships, meaning they have a harder time taking an offensive stance.

If the Klingons build dreadnaughts they are going to sit in the systems of major houses because each house is terrified the moment theirs moves out of system a rival house will attack.
 
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On the one hand canon seems to strongly agree with you. On the other hand, Section 31 exists too. Kind of an odd contradiction that the writers never really reconciled. Particularly since Section 31 seems to go way past the "necessary pragmatists" mark and straight into the "morally alarming" territory without the pragmatism or characterization to make them make sense.

I always just see S31 as originally having been founded by relatively well meaning people who had some of the same concerns members of this very thread have had - that the Federation's idealism and dislike of using force might bite them in the ass one day, that someone needs to be prepared for if one day, diplomacy and enlightenment just... fail. And then from there, they became more and more insular and radical until you get the canon situation of them basically being completely rogue compared to the rest of Starfleet and becoming so ruthless it backfires on them.
 
Between needing a very specific mindset, being at the top of your class, and passing that psychological torture test that makes for good TV but would probably see like half of every cadet class wash out, you'd think there would be constant staff shortages.
 
Why not just make our own bird of prey knockoff then?

Small, cheap. Take the micro-warp core and mini-deflector that SanFran developed and fit it into an even smaller package.

120kt + 2 nacelles = 160kt = 20 for heavy shields. 37ish shield HP?

12 for 2/1 torpedos, 4 for engines, 16 for 4 phasers, 8 for warp core.

60ish cost as a baseline and talking to account tech maturing. 56ish if you could actually convince the thread take the microcore. Pretty close to the Miranda, which drops to like 70 in 2260.
 
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I don't see why we should make a designated training ship - it would be better just to make a replacement for the constable

if you have a larger ship then its going to be exactly like how the one you serve on will be
why not just use a modern one (something like the USS San Francisco) which has been damaged or rotate a ship off the line every so often
 
What's optimum really depends on your technology, your economic state, and the ethos of your polity.

How you live is how you fight.

The optimum warship for Starfleet is probably to just turn their giant starships into giant carriers with like dozens of extreme maneuverability 10~20kt runabouts that each have a torpedo (or two) with tremendous alpha strike power in exchange for terrible durability - wait I've just re-invented the Peregrine Class Fighter
 
The optimum warship for Starfleet is probably to just turn their giant starships into giant carriers with like dozens of extreme maneuverability 10~20kt runabouts that each have a torpedo (or two) with tremendous alpha strike power in exchange for terrible durability - wait I've just re-invented the Peregrine Class Fighter
No that's dumb as hell for a variety of reasons that we've gone into before.
 
I always just see S31 as originally having been founded by relatively well meaning people who had some of the same concerns members of this very thread have had - that the Federation's idealism and dislike of using force might bite them in the ass one day, that someone needs to be prepared for if one day, diplomacy and enlightenment just... fail. And then from there, they became more and more insular and radical until you get the canon situation of them basically being completely rogue compared to the rest of Starfleet and becoming so ruthless it backfires on them.
That sounds completely plausible. Those initial concerns were even accurate. Starfleet had gotten smug after the long peace leading up to the end of the 24th century. And then the Cardassian conflicts before that, leading up to the Dominion War.

And then they went down the radicalization rabbit hole and stopped making sense entirely. I can't think of a single thing Section 31 actually accomplished. They don't even get credit for 'winning' the Dominion War - all they managed was ensuring the Founders would burn the universe down with them.

ARGUABLY they accomplished something with the Klingon War in Discovery... but only arguably. First, they didn't accomplish that. Empress Giorgiou did. Needing to rely on a Terran for your 'brilliant plan' is a bad sign for your own competence. And the entire point of Disco Season 1 was emphatically refuting Section 31's entire premise of justified ruthlessness. Disco Season 2, of course, had them be the villains.

What's optimum really depends on your technology, your economic state, and the ethos of your polity.

How you live is how you fight.

The optimum warship for Starfleet is probably to just turn their giant starships into giant carriers with like dozens of extreme maneuverability 10~20kt runabouts that each have a torpedo (or two) with tremendous alpha strike power in exchange for terrible durability - wait I've just re-invented the Peregrine Class Fighter
...So the Federation lives as if lives are expendable? No. Never. If we accept that Axiom, the Federation fights with the very highest quality, incredibly tanky ships that preserve their crew. And even the warships have additional utility in peacetime.

Which is what we have. If anything we aren't gold-plated enough.
 
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