Starfleet Design Bureau

If we decide to go for a diplomatic module, I'd suggest going for crew amenities over better quarters, because lots of crew amenities can also double as diplomatic amenities.
Yeah. Fancify the ship with nice conference rooms and public spaces, get some wall panelling that isn't beige, and what do you know - the crew will be happier. Shocking isn't it. Plus we get to piss off the 'No Gold Plating!' crowd with some literal gold leaf. It's worthless these days, we're civilized, but it's still very pretty.

Maybe WE can make an ORB shaped hospital ship.

orb, Orb, ORB...!
That's what the Olympic class is, in a little bit.
 
What would the capacity of a hospital ship here look like
I know real hospital ships (like the USNS Mercy) have around 1000 beds
what would we be likely to get with one here because if it isn't around that number then I don't think there's much use to building a hospital ship
 
I think survey is good to go for, but there's not really a good reason to do that in depth because the Attenborough and Atwater cover a lot of the role but we can cover what those don't do and have some room for medical or diplomacy at least.

Also - is it stated anywhere how many of the Atwater subclass got built?
The attenborough is for trees, not for rocks. Two totally different fields
 
The attenborough is for trees, not for rocks. Two totally different fields
right, but the Atwater covers rocks and that's a lot of the types of survey we can probably do - the Excalibur also has stellar surveying equipment.

Also we don't really have many of any of these classes of survey vessels so maybe it would work to invest into survey equipment here
 
right, but the Atwater covers rocks and that's a lot of the types of survey we can probably do - the Excalibur also has stellar surveying equipment.

Also we don't really have many of any of these classes of survey vessels so maybe it would work to invest into survey equipment here
We've just designed a class of survey ships that saw a small production run, followed by Starfleet telling us that they don't really care if the next design has science. I don't think the message here is that Starfleet is excited to order more survey ships.
 
We've just designed a class of survey ships that saw a small production run, followed by Starfleet telling us that they don't really care if the next design has science. I don't think the message here is that Starfleet is excited to order more survey ships.
But Starfleet also wants a depth of capability so something needs to be focused on and survey is probably a candidate for that
 
right, but the Atwater covers rocks and that's a lot of the types of survey we can probably do - the Excalibur also has stellar surveying equipment.

Also we don't really have many of any of these classes of survey vessels so maybe it would work to invest into survey equipment here
Plant side rocks, the thing was a lander, it likely had limited survey capacity of a solar system, although on planets it likely did a decent job at finding mineral deposits.

However space survey is different what you might have thought was a asteroid with enough dilithium to fund about 10 or 20 Excaliburs turned out to be a life form that eats the stuff, interesting find but otherwise cant really research it because you traded in your biology science labs to be able to survey rocks so at best you can do a basic scan and take pictures of the creature but in the end you fail on finding space resource.
 
What would the capacity of a hospital ship here look like
I know real hospital ships (like the USNS Mercy) have around 1000 beds
what would we be likely to get with one here because if it isn't around that number then I don't think there's much use to building a hospital ship

A triage deck, an array of emergency transporter buffers to save people who are currently dying but treatable, extra transporter capacity, advanced diagnostic suites for exotic ailments, cargo for transporting medicine.

Plant side rocks, the thing was a lander, it likely had limited survey capacity of a solar system, although on planets it likely did a decent job at finding mineral deposits.

However space survey is different what you might have thought was a asteroid with enough dilithium to fund about 10 or 20 Excaliburs turned out to be a life form that eats the stuff, interesting find but otherwise cant really research it because you traded in your biology science labs to be able to survey rocks so at best you can do a basic scan and take pictures of the creature but in the end you fail on finding space resource.

Plus a truly disconcerting number of Nebulas keep turning out to be alive and in some way able to defend themselves when they would otherwise be a great energy source.
 
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But Starfleet also wants a depth of capability so something needs to be focused on and survey is probably a candidate for that
I don't understand why people keep trying to argue for science when all the information we're being given is screaming "no science thank you very much".

Starfleet currently operates a great number of science ships or ships earmarked for science missions once whatever comes out of projects Miranda and Federation free them from patrol duty. Starfleet has in fact recently ordered a new class of science ships, which are some of those that are stuck on patrol, and they ordered a fairly small run. Starfleet has explicitly told the designers of Miranda and Federation that they don't care about more than the bare minimum of a basic science lab.

Am I missing a side story or something? Where are people getting the idea that we should build a science ship? Is this just residual panic from us "not having enough ships" in the war against a superior power that we won?
 
Still gonna shill for VIP quarters at a minimum as a concession to diplomacy. As the ship with the fastest warp cruising speed, and a helluva lot of tonnage and tactical capability, this is the sort of ship the President of the Federation or their representative might be ferried to an important event on.
 
hospital ships are so dump when we got transporters, figured having extra transporter buffers to store extreme cases till they can be taken to somewhere they can be fixed. In a advance space age civilization having advance technology means they got advance solutions.

The argument to have this ship normally boils down to, it will have lots of beds! cargo space for thousands of people!

Forgetting to be able to treat a thousand people, you need a crew in the thousands most of them doctors who aren't doing anything, not to mention feeding that crew and anyone who ends up in this ship to be treated.

At that point your better off just relying on medical centers from the planet or stations and use your transporters to send people there because you cant be bothered.

Of course during battle is the worse place for such a ship just big ole target that says "blow me up Im vulnerable and your kill count ratio is gonna sky rocket!"

ect ect in the end its dumb and Im never voting for it.
 
Plant side rocks, the thing was a lander, it likely had limited survey capacity of a solar system, although on planets it likely did a decent job at finding mineral deposits.

However space survey is different what you might have thought was a asteroid with enough dilithium to fund about 10 or 20 Excaliburs turned out to be a life form that eats the stuff, interesting find but otherwise cant really research it because you traded in your biology science labs to be able to survey rocks so at best you can do a basic scan and take pictures of the creature but in the end you fail on finding space resource.
no I know, im just saying outside of dilithium analysis equipment most of the other bases are covered in terms of survey ships
we definitely need dilithium analysis on this ship
I don't understand why people keep trying to argue for science when all the information we're being given is screaming "no science thank you very much".

Starfleet currently operates a great number of science ships or ships earmarked for science missions once whatever comes out of projects Miranda and Federation free them from patrol duty. Starfleet has in fact recently ordered a new class of science ships, which are some of those that are stuck on patrol, and they ordered a fairly small run. Starfleet has explicitly told the designers of Miranda and Federation that they don't care about more than the bare minimum of a basic science lab.

Am I missing a side story or something? Where are people getting the idea that we should build a science ship? Is this just residual panic from us "not having enough ships" in the war against a superior power that we won?
probably because (at least in my thinking) the Sagarmatha is decommissioned, the Saladin class are about to be so, the Keas lost the Dilithium analysis, and we lost a lot of Excaliburs in the 4 years war (and those are only of questionable use for science really).
So I Figure that's a lot of ships to replace
Starfleet really only says that we don't actually have to focus on science but that we can and that modules that are only worth questionable value should be ignored, so if we use proven science modules that should work out
 
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Triage Deck is not a dedicated hospital ship, it was available on the Archer. It's specifically detailed as colony support option that's good for dealing with problems on the edges of Federation space.

This sounds like a good synergistic thing to me for a ship that'd want to spend most of its time on the border or hauling things to the border. Pharmacology + Triage Deck is likely the full hospital ship, which takes three science slots plus more for the Triage Deck.

Loading Deck + Triage Deck makes for an excellent first responder, letting it handle large disasters with the increase shuttle complement and easy to access storage while the Triage Deck lets it handle dealing with the masses of people that need help.

triage deck said:
The second option is to lean more into the large interior and set up a triage deck. Medical emergencies are not unusual when responding to distress calls, and those that involve colonies rather than single starships can rapidly overwhelm the medical capacities of any vessel. In addition to carrying with it the bulk cargo often necessary in rebuilding efforts or setting up new colonies, the triage deck would also allow the ship to respond to crises in the outer Federation where its projected duties of supplying Starfleet's more far-flung endeavours would ordinarily take it.
 
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hospital ships are so dump when we got transporters, figured having extra transporter buffers to store extreme cases till they can be taken to somewhere they can be fixed. In a advance space age civilization having advance technology means they got advance solutions.

The argument to have this ship normally boils down to, it will have lots of beds! cargo space for thousands of people!

Forgetting to be able to treat a thousand people, you need a crew in the thousands most of them doctors who aren't doing anything, not to mention feeding that crew and anyone who ends up in this ship to be treated.

At that point your better off just relying on medical centers from the planet or stations and use your transporters to send people there because you cant be bothered.

Of course during battle is the worse place for such a ship just big ole target that says "blow me up Im vulnerable and your kill count ratio is gonna sky rocket!"

ect ect in the end its dumb and Im never voting for it.

Having transporters as part of your hospital is in fact the plan. But pattern buffers are a very finite resource for people who are dying right this second, this is what triage in a mass casualty event is all about. And it means you can move a number of people from the 'let them die, we'd save ten in the time to treat them' category to the 'they can wait' category. Why, it's almost as if building a ship with dedicated racks of pattern buffers might be a good idea.

The biggest argument against focusing on medical is the crew required, but fortunately Starfleet is big on cross training. The crew will have the absolute best medical care when something comes up (something always comes up) and when they aren't the doctors and nurses can treat the ship as a flying research hospital.

You're assuming that the colonies we're dealing with actually have advanced medical facilities. If they do then that's great - our job is to be an extra staging area where we can keep critical cases in life support, as well as have another dozen transporters and advanced sensors to locate survivors.

A battle is exactly the place for such a ship, because that's where the casualties are. Especially in the immediate aftermath. And this is the ship for it, because it is specifically designed to be a tank. You're suggesting writing off all the casualties in a battle because it's too dangerous, when we have a ship with the capacity to actually survive there and save them.

This is especially true, of course, for the Fleet Actions that the Federation Class was built to support. If you find yourself in deep space, with a half dozen floating hulls with failing life support and battle damage? Why you'll find you sure want your flagship - the tankiest, most survivable ship there - to have the capability to get everyone treated.
 
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A battle is exactly the place for such a ship, because that's where the casualties are. Especially in the immediate aftermath. And this is the ship for it, because it is specifically designed to be a tank. You're suggesting writing off all the casualties in a battle because it's too dangerous, when we have a ship with the capacity to actually survive there and save them.
We gave the Excalibur the expanded medbay figuring it'd be good for recovery of other ships after battles. I don't recall it being mentioned at all either in the ship's retrospective or any of the war updates. It doesn't seem to be a useful angle.
 
the tankiest, most survivable ship there
If a battle is bad enough to need a ship dedicated to medical treatment it doesnt matter how tanky your ship is if its alone and outgunned and trying to save people in wrecked ships, which wouldnt happen often because antimatter containment on starships that got damaged enough is questionable and would tend to explode that any ship close enough (like say in transporter range) would suffer damage because their shields are down to take on the damaged ships crew (I think you need to have your shields down to be able to use the transporters.)

While also being under fire from the enemy. of course thats if the ship is by itself which is likely because we dont have the numbers to make this ship have a sizable escort into a active battle zones to save exploding or near exploded ships.

Also in such a war its callus yes to wash your hands of the dying. But most ships wont be surviving such conditions either way.

Also I think it be a way better idea to have extra buffers for every ship so when reinforcements arrive they all can take on surviving crews on ships not just one ship dedicated to doing that. Action economy dictates that more ships equal saving people faster then just one ship doing it.

With all the ships doing it, it also saves on the load of having hundreds if not thousands of surviving people in your buffers if you have them spread out on dozens of ships in the area.
 
Real hospital ships are converted merchant ships - I don't see why we shouldn't do the same

there's not really much of a actual use for them - the ones that exist have gotten used only like once every 5 years
its a real edge case situation
 
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You're forgetting the single most obvious lesson of the Recent Unpleasantness. The Federations would win every single fight against the Mirandas, because if they wouldn't win any given fight they wouldn't be fighting it. The set of possible outcomes is "Mirandas lose" and "Feddies leave". At no point in this empty-field versus-calc is "Feddies lose" ever going to enter the possibility space. You can't even reasonably propose circumstances like "what if the Feddies are stuck defending infrastructure" because the Feddies don't just have higher sprint (=tactical speed), they also have higher max cruise (=strategic speed); for an overwhelming force of Mirandas to pin down the Feddies against a hardpoint they can't afford to lose would require such a monumental degree of bias as to render the entire scenario somewhere betwixt farfetched and farcical.
This

The strategic implications of that degree of mobility overmatch on both the strategic and tactical scale are crushing, and would allow a smaller force of Federations to devastate a nationstate defended by just Mirandas.
Which is why Starfleet wont make that mistake


So for interior modules what are people thinking personally I would like to see some diplomatic stuff and materials science stuff
Kea had 7 modules iirc; Callie had 6

Not entirely sure. My main sticking points are going to be cargo (whilst the Miranda offers it, it's also a hell of a lot slower, and likely less voluminous compared to what we can) and dilithium prospecting, I'll be rather flexible for anything else.

I do think antimatter storage shouldn't be emphasised in this design, as well as having an extra half year for our range calculations (and making a ship almost as long ranged as the Excalibu, only 43ly less actually) when it comes time for the 2265/2270 refit the new nacelles and potentially warp core are going to likely increase the range quite dramatically again.
I think range is measured at efficient cruise; gonna drop significantly if you're running max cruise
To leverage that max cruise rating, you need the AM to burn
So Id vote for extra AM if its offered, depending on if its +50%, +100% or +200%

And iirc, at 314LY, the Feddie has less range than both an Excalibur at 357 LY and a canon Constitution at 430LY
Meanwhile at 216 LY the range of a Miranda is 68.7% of a Feddie, 60.5% of a Callie, and 50.2% of a canon Constitution


This is the ship thats going to be used for stuff like claiming new space and strategic mats on the frontiers, fast colony runs, seeing off raiders, and intelligence gathering on enemy ships and border installations
Thats a tasking that benefits from
  • Cargo
  • Extra Crew Quarters
  • Longrange sensors/Advanced Sensors ???(If that still exists)
  • Dilithium Labs
  • Extra AM
  • Extra Computing Core
  • Stellar Dynamics
  • Science Labs
  • Advanced Medical/Pharmacology
  • Fabrication Workshop

Cargo is essential; the rest we can argue about priority
Wouod be handy if it was listed under the Attenborough ships built number, though.
Small runs dont get listed
The Radiant was also 4-ships, and doesnt get a listing either

Maybe WE can make an ORB shaped hospital ship.
orb, Orb, ORB...!
Not until we get phaser strips is my thinking
Not after the Archers proved incapable of even self defence during the war

We gave the Excalibur the expanded medbay figuring it'd be good for recovery of other ships after battles. I don't recall it being mentioned at all either in the ship's retrospective or any of the war updates. It doesn't seem to be a useful angle.
This basically

Our experience is that if you are in a war with fleet battles, your casualties are either DoA or survivable, and you are bringing support ships anyway. That means that if you are speccing expanded medbays, its with an eye to shit like colony emergency response and science for novel shit, not combat triage
 
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Triage Deck is not a dedicated hospital ship, it was available on the Archer. It's specifically detailed as colony support option that's good for dealing with problems on the edges of Federation space.

This sounds like a good synergistic thing to me for a ship that'd want to spend most of its time on the border or hauling things to the border. Pharmacology + Triage Deck is likely the full hospital ship, which takes three science slots plus more for the Triage Deck.

Loading Deck + Triage Deck makes for an excellent first responder, letting it handle large disasters with the increase shuttle complement and easy to access storage while the Triage Deck lets it handle dealing with the masses of people that need help.
The Federation (as a whole) has been described as bleeding and requiring bandages to cover losses from the 4 Years War.

The Federation-Class can be that literal bandage.

She's big, she's expensive, but she runs like a dream and wil take care of her crew and the colonies.

I'm down for the Triage Build first responder build. We might even have room for a secondary engineering or science specialty.
 
Real hospital ships are converted merchant ships - I don't see why we shouldn't do the same

there's not really much of a actual use for them - the ones that exist have gotten used only like once every 5 years
its a real edge case situation
The real world isn't in an era of expansion where significant and important amounts of the population is living in literal colonies that the nearest other civilization is weeks of travel away and a ship visits perhaps a couple of times a year.

You cannot simply fly someone to a hospital if the need is bad enough.

Nor does IRL really care about providing first world medical care to the parts of the planet that don't have native hospital access. Generally people just die.
 
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The real world isn't in an era of expansion where significant and important amounts of the population is living in literal colonies that the nearest other civilization is weeks of travel away and a ship visits perhaps a couple of times a year.

You cannot simply fly someone to a hospital if the need is bad enough.
What makes hospitals are medical personnel

Doctors. Nurses. Medtechs and all the ancillary personnel that allow them to work
Thats why hospital ships exist, because there are never enough docs and nurses to go around, so they are concentrated in one spot with equipment they need and ferried wholesale that way to places and events that need them

We dont have the capacity to accomodate that many medics on a warship, we definitely dont have that many, and Star Trek in this era does not feature the sort of automation that would allow us to get away with minimal staffing
All the talk about triage decks and more tech is just a distraction from the primary limitation
 
If a battle is bad enough to need a ship dedicated to medical treatment it doesnt matter how tanky your ship is if its alone and outgunned and trying to save people in wrecked ships, which wouldnt happen often because antimatter containment on starships that got damaged enough is questionable and would tend to explode that any ship close enough (like say in transporter range) would suffer damage because their shields are down to take on the damaged ships crew (I think you need to have your shields down to be able to use the transporters.)

While also being under fire from the enemy. of course thats if the ship is by itself which is likely because we dont have the numbers to make this ship have a sizable escort into a active battle zones to save exploding or near exploded ships.

Also in such a war its callus yes to wash your hands of the dying. But most ships wont be surviving such conditions either way.

Also I think it be a way better idea to have extra buffers for every ship so when reinforcements arrive they all can take on surviving crews on ships not just one ship dedicated to doing that. Action economy dictates that more ships equal saving people faster then just one ship doing it.

With all the ships doing it, it also saves on the load of having hundreds if not thousands of surviving people in your buffers if you have them spread out on dozens of ships in the area.
No see you're missing the point - in a fleet action this ship is going to be there anyway. That is, in fact, what it is for. Fleet actions are where you get the large numbers of casualties, because every 'shields at fifty percent' and 'life support failing' and exploding console represents people needing treatment. And frankly I refuse to believe that there are no injuries between 'walk it off' and 'instantly dead' because the battles in Star Trek aren't rocket tag enough for that.

Also, outside of battle, consider how many colony disasters we've seen where having more dedicated medical facilities would help because the locals are overwhelmed. Again, I don't assume the protagonist mission profiles are rare.

Real hospital ships are converted merchant ships - I don't see why we shouldn't do the same

there's not really much of a actual use for them - the ones that exist have gotten used only like once every 5 years
its a real edge case situation
This isn't a hospital ship. This is a first responder ship that could be an emergency hospital.

The real world isn't in an era of expansion where significant and important amounts of the population is living in literal colonies that the nearest other civilization is weeks of travel away and a ship visits perhaps a couple of times a year.

You cannot simply fly someone to a hospital if the need is bad enough.

Nor does IRL really care about providing first world medical care to the parts of the planet that don't have native hospital access. Generally people just die.
Exactly this yes. By the 23rd century we've at least gotten over a few of our bad habits. Everyone deserves medical care. We can't always provide it, but we'll damn well try.
 
Hospital ships exist. They are dedicated ship designs, and the Federation-class wouldn't work as one.

Something something you don't tend to heavily arm your *medical ships*
 
Hospital ships exist. They are dedicated ship designs, and the Federation-class wouldn't work as one.

Something something you don't tend to heavily arm your *medical ships*
You do when your enemies have different ethical standards and have no problem shooting at your corpsmen or the medical ships you just mentioned. Which Klingons are famous for.

If we could get them to agree that targeting doctors was off limits I'd agree with you, though I'd still push for capacity to help survivors after battle. But just as you don't get to unilaterally declare peace, you don't get to unilaterally declare standards of war.
 
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