Or, you know, just doing artificial pregnancy. You can't tell me 22nd century tech can't pull off artificial wombs.
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Im not seeing why this was considered a plot point
Its Trek; Im pretty sure if I looked, I would find that the technology exists to gestate fetuses ex utero
The idea that something like this would be an impediment to a core Federation species is mock worthy
Indeed. Unless they'd been the recipients of some extremely sophisticated and equally convoluted bio-engineering that rendered further bio-engineering and reproductive intervention problematic, but that in itself would be easily detected and would be headline news all over the Federation; everyone would know "The Andorians were engineered in the distant past, whoever did it went to extraordinary effort to mess up their biology so re-engineering them is hellishly complicated."
I agree with you all, even in that event it's functionally impossible that it hadn't become a solved problem by the 24th century. Even having to re-code an entire genome from scratch wouldn't be beyond the Federation by then, if it was that serious of a problem. It would only be a matter of when the cure would be deployed.
Don't Terra Prime (or whatever they're called) use one to incubate the hybrid clone of Trip and T'Pol (Elizabeth)? Given no germ cells were used you'd need some sort of artificial incubator to carry the foetus to term.
Yes quite easily, but the writers were idiots who's idiocy was only equaled by their deference to TNG S1-2 being the moral ideal for the Federation/Starfleet.
Now I'm curious, if you don't mind me bringing up a topic that's obviously not your personal favourite. Are we talking the early TnG humans who don't mourn but just move on from death like zombies, who say with dead eyes they don't fear death and can't comprehend doing so, who have no passions or aspirations?
Edit: Any examples by what you mean by early TnG morals? I am genuinely curious.
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darkstarling
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That's a very weird thing, since each quad should be producing at least 4 kids. There has to be a social rather than biological cause, or possibly enemy action.
The Kea actually removed the Dilithium prospecting module for extra antimatter tanks, presumably extending the range from 70ly to 140ly. If you consider the fact that the Kea was always intended to serve as a short-range internal explorer, then the loss of the dilithium module doesn't actually matter much since we've presumably already surveyed the vast majority of promising systems in our territory.
People actually seem to want a Sagarmatha replacement, which would make more sense as the Sagarmatha will be decommissioned by the time this ship is built. However the Sagarmathas are being replaced by the Excaliburs, and we know that Starfleet only ever operated 10 Sagarmathas and they have a greater number of Excaliburs already, so we'd really be banking on Excalibur casualties needing to be replaced.
…yes, that description of serviceable but unexceptional is what mediocre means. A C+ is not especially bad, it's just not good, either. Mediocre.
I don't think that's what Starfleet wants with this design. They want "a depth of capability in vital areas of interest", which suggests that we should be trying to specialize this ship using large modules that give it capabilities that smaller vessels simply cannot match. I don't think we'll get that if we try to sprinkle in a bit of everything.
The civilian sector will not be dealing with phaser production or antimatter transport. They're not totally irrelevant to ship production, but they don't contribute to the things that bottleneck us. Presumably civilian production is why we can basically ignore the cost of mass beyond shields and thrust.
And that is essentially how the fields we're graded on work in practice, if you read the retrospectives. For example:
Science ships locate and evaluate potential colony sites within our borders, explorers go out and expand our borders by making first contact and cataloguing new stars, engineering ships respond to emergencies and provide Starfleet logistics, and tactical suppresses piracy and fights wars.
The only science that doesn't appear to increase Starfleet's obligations is strategic materials prospecting, but we've only ever been offered one module for that, and it makes way more sense to put that on a cheap ship like the Saladin rather than bringing all these other modules with you.
Anyways, my problem with putting more than basic science labs on this ship boils down to the lack of any roles that need to be filled. We already have internal science ships in the Keas and Attenboroughs and Atwater's, and we have explorers in the Excaliburs, so what else do we need? The order numbers for our last two designs suggest pretty strongly that Starfleet just isn't interested in more science ships.
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We're also just grossly too small. Even simple scaling up tells us each cetacean takes at least 30 times the internal volume as each human crew member for basic living space, and given their inherent three-dimensional movement and likely psychological differences from humanity, I would be astonished if they actually required less than a hundred times the volume for similar quality of life. If we totally eliminated the 400 human crew of a canon Connie, we could fit drumroll four to thirteen cetaceans in its crew quarters.
Edit: assuming belugas due to Lower Decks. Bottlenose dolphins would be slightly smaller, blue whales comically larger- a humane blue whale habitat would be a tight squeeze in the entire hull volume of a Galaxy-class, never mind its available internal volume after structure and machinery.
I mean, human habitations average something like 20m² per capita globally? Recommendations in developed countries vary widely, but at least 50m² for single-bedroom and 30-40m² for studio apartments (themselves widely viewed poorly) are reasonable ballpark estimates. Even "tiny homes" don't typically go below around 20-21 m², and those are generally the domain of enthusiast weirdos.
But! We are talking about Starfleet. This is a brighter and shinier future and thus we're not even going to think about living space on modern nuclear submarines, but we are self-selecting pretty damn hard for enthusiast weirdos. So let's take that 20m² number, as the smallest that people will live in voluntarily when given control of their own living arrangements, multiply it by a 2-meter ceiling height (low, but not outrageously so), and call it 40 cubic meters per capita, target. A human being averages 0.065 cubic meters in volume, so target living space is a bit over 600 times the volume of the biological organism.
Now, even if we totally disregard any possible psychological differences between species- particularly their likely need for volume rather than area as a species with inherent three-dimensional movement- and apply that to a very rough ballpark guess at beluga whale volume of 1.5 cubic meters, and we get a minimum living space for a single cetacean on the order of 1200 cubic meters.
If instead of ignoring any species psychology differences you prefer to ignore the cruelty of the aquarium industry, we can turn to dolphinariums for another point of comparison.
The European Association for Aquatic Mammals recommends- for five dolphins- a minimum pool size of 275m², minimum depth of 3.5m, and minimum volume of at least 1,000m³. This is for bottlenose dolphins, which are something like two-thirds the length and a fifth of the mass of a beluga. (They can also jump at least six metres above the surface of the water, so really we should count their full living space as closer to 2600m³ if they're going to have room to jump and play without injuring themselves on the ceiling, but since belugas are far less acrobatic, we'll content ourselves with half that ceiling height allowance and a base recommendation of around 1800m³ total living volume, multiplied by 1.5 for belugas' greater size. That puts us at 2700m³ for five cetaceans in just-barely-big-enough-to-not-technically-be-animal-cruelty, about 540m³ per capita.
This number does not spark joy.
But! We are talking about Starfleet. This is a brighter and shinier future and thus we're not even going to think about living space on modern nuclear submarines, but we are self-selecting pretty damn hard for enthusiast weirdos. So let's take that 20m² number, as the smallest that people will live in voluntarily when given control of their own living arrangements, multiply it by a 2-meter ceiling height (low, but not outrageously so), and call it 40 cubic meters per capita, target. A human being averages 0.065 cubic meters in volume, so target living space is a bit over 600 times the volume of the biological organism.
Now, even if we totally disregard any possible psychological differences between species- particularly their likely need for volume rather than area as a species with inherent three-dimensional movement- and apply that to a very rough ballpark guess at beluga whale volume of 1.5 cubic meters, and we get a minimum living space for a single cetacean on the order of 1200 cubic meters.
If instead of ignoring any species psychology differences you prefer to ignore the cruelty of the aquarium industry, we can turn to dolphinariums for another point of comparison.
The European Association for Aquatic Mammals recommends- for five dolphins- a minimum pool size of 275m², minimum depth of 3.5m, and minimum volume of at least 1,000m³. This is for bottlenose dolphins, which are something like two-thirds the length and a fifth of the mass of a beluga. (They can also jump at least six metres above the surface of the water, so really we should count their full living space as closer to 2600m³ if they're going to have room to jump and play without injuring themselves on the ceiling, but since belugas are far less acrobatic, we'll content ourselves with half that ceiling height allowance and a base recommendation of around 1800m³ total living volume, multiplied by 1.5 for belugas' greater size. That puts us at 2700m³ for five cetaceans in just-barely-big-enough-to-not-technically-be-animal-cruelty, about 540m³ per capita.
This number does not spark joy.
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No real solid examples but they treat the incredibly shallow morals of early TNG as objectively correct, actively demonise those who came later and even TNG characters who did later TNG/DS9 actions (when they don't try and save face by having it actually be a S31 plot).
I mean, calling the show writers slugs seems kinda rude, but fitting lmao
The Bluegils, which were meant to be related to the Borg but were repurposed to some acclaim by STO as the Iconians servitor species adapted for control of others (whilst also enhancing them). They were a fairly recent thing, judging by the fact that there was a number of uninfected officers.
darkstarling
Brilliantly Crazed
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Yeah, it was a relatively recent infiltration that they fortunately caught in the early stages before it couldn't be stopped.
They were originally supposed to be Borg foreshadowing yeah, but that was when the Borg were planned to be insects. Personally I think that if they're their own thing.
No, the Federation was simply a victim of its own success. Most of a century of peace had convinced them that war was obsolete, that the problems of humanity and other species were basically solved.
Which is what led to appeasement with the Cardassians* and being unprepared for a major threat to emerge until Q lit a fire under them. I still think that was as much about prepping them for the Dominion as it was for the Borg.
*this may be an unfair characterization, if part of the peace terms were leaving Bajor, but they still wound up trading colonies with almost literal Nazis rather than ending the war properly.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over the "appeasement" of Cardassians, a few very pertinent notes to make about the events of early TNG, happening right in the lead up to said treaty being made:
Formal contact with the Ferengi Alliance (which despite the mishandling of them in the show, Ferengi Marauders were peer level vessels when compared to the Galaxy-class).
The Romulans re-emerging from a 70-year long period of intense isolation.
Drastic political instability within the Klingon Empire, leading to a civil war that nearly saw a pro-Romulan chancellor installed.
The reveal of the Borg as a threat, one that had been preying on outposts along the Neutral Zone undetected for some time, culminating in the loss of over three dozen ships at the Battle of Wolf 359.
Oh, and that the intent had been for the colonies to be evacuated so that none of their citizens would actually be left in Cardassian space, only for a bunch of them to refuse.
In a span of about five years there was a drastic shift in the balance of power around the Federation, and that even with that, the resulting treaty allowed the Federation to exert enough political pressure on the Cardassians to get them to leave Bajor.
But no, it's not ever anything about being a sensible response to changing conditions, it's always infinite butthurt about the Federation not being a hypermilitarized settler-state.
Formal contact with the Ferengi Alliance (which despite the mishandling of them in the show, Ferengi Marauders were peer level vessels when compared to the Galaxy-class).
The Romulans re-emerging from a 70-year long period of intense isolation.
Drastic political instability within the Klingon Empire, leading to a civil war that nearly saw a pro-Romulan chancellor installed.
The reveal of the Borg as a threat, one that had been preying on outposts along the Neutral Zone undetected for some time, culminating in the loss of over three dozen ships at the Battle of Wolf 359.
Oh, and that the intent had been for the colonies to be evacuated so that none of their citizens would actually be left in Cardassian space, only for a bunch of them to refuse.
In a span of about five years there was a drastic shift in the balance of power around the Federation, and that even with that, the resulting treaty allowed the Federation to exert enough political pressure on the Cardassians to get them to leave Bajor.
But no, it's not ever anything about being a sensible response to changing conditions, it's always infinite butthurt about the Federation not being a hypermilitarized settler-state.
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[X] Conventional Secondary Hull (Mass: 220kt) [Cost: 55.5)
I like cruise speed and people would vote sprint just to claw back some so I'm voting this, which is a shame as I like the versatility of the flight deck.
I'm also coming around to the idea of Diplomacy, lots of conference rooms and ambassadors quarters, good for peace time and during war it can be converted to an Admirals rooms and support staff.
But the main focus needs to be tactical as the Excalibur is currently pulling all the tactical weight and Starfleet needs more options.
I like cruise speed and people would vote sprint just to claw back some so I'm voting this, which is a shame as I like the versatility of the flight deck.
I'm also coming around to the idea of Diplomacy, lots of conference rooms and ambassadors quarters, good for peace time and during war it can be converted to an Admirals rooms and support staff.
But the main focus needs to be tactical as the Excalibur is currently pulling all the tactical weight and Starfleet needs more options.
darkstarling
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Some people get het up about Discovery, I get het up about Cardassian appeasement. The Maquis did nothing wrong!
No but seriously you do raise some great points about the changing political situation. Though I prefer to think the Cardassians get kicked out of Bajor by the Bajorans, more agency for them. But I don't think that if the Federation had done a full regime change in Cardassia that would make them a hypermilitarized settler state.
Alot of butthurt is more towards the writers/directors for poorly portraying it imo, but then again studio and production constraints go a long way for explaining why they did. After all, from watching canon you can say "masterfully skilled melee combatants" fight with the skill of high school theater students, so why wouldn't their master political operators look and sound like poly-sci dropouts.
Also they would always use the flimsiest reasonings to keep Gul Dukat relevant, and watching Sisko get clowned by what looks like a Villain Sue is painful. Sisko deserved better than that imo.
Overall I think we can make sure it turns out better than OTL. We've got time, and this design is likely going to spend time patrolling against Klingon raids. So the better we make it for handling the problems of that region can snowball later. The Federation has had Romulan Cloaking tech notes for a few decades now, so hopefully we can use cloaking tech for a cloaked border patrol boat soon. That 4 deck vertical warp core would probably look lovely in a thicker Selachii too...
darkstarling
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Now THAT'S a good question. We've got cloaking devices right, because different Treaty of Algeron? Can we... use a module to get the Federation's first cloaked battleship?
*bambi eyes*
- Location
- Australia
We do not, I think the explanation was roughly "Nobody trusts people who cloak ships, and doubly so if you hide you cloak ships"
However we are significantly better at detection of cloaked ships.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Sayle already addressed this nonsense here:
Well darn. I guess that makes sense.
We'll have to wait until after we win the Klingon's and Romulan's trust I guess. /jk
Shard
One and Many
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Plus you can put the research efforts and Strategic Resource Costs that would have gone into Cloaking Devices into other things. More phasers, more shields, more engines.. Those Cloaking Devices can't possibly be cheap. You have to research them, then pay for their price on a ship, and that space on a ship isn't doing anything else. Opportunity cost is real.
darkstarling
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Well sure, even if we could talk someone in the admiralty into it we'd need to AT LEAST burn a whole module for our experimental cloaking screen.
I don't think it's nonsense, but that's at least a reasonable strategic decision. It's not necessarily one I agree with - to me this is like a nation refusing to build submarines - but I do at least see where it's coming from and don't think it's stupid. I just have different priorities from the policy makers.
So if we're back to missing capacities, then I think we're back to diplomacy medical and cargo.
I guess I had trouble believing the Federation would struggle, when we saw a Galaxy-class and Nebula-class routinely curbstomp Cardassian warships in that episode where the Federation captain goes rogue. It seems if, without prep or favourable circumstances, one of your cruisers can wade through multiple enemy cruisers and emerge undamaged, it should've been pretty simple to simply send a fleet into Cardassian space and cause utter mayhem and devastation on anything in sensor range (purely military targets, naturally) until the Cardassians kiss the Federation's boots and sign a treaty saying they'll never go near Federation space again. That's what I would've done, if my neighbours were making forays into my space and slaughtering my civilians.
Oh, and I would've suggested that perhaps I might be less... Severe, if they came to me with future requests, if Bajor was immediately evacuated.
The disparity in power between the Federation and Cardassians in those early eps is just too big to even believe a serious military campaign is required. An expeditionary force should be sufficient to force them out.
