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Starfleet Design Bureau

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zac1 said:
Instead, we use teleporters, everyone saved. The end.

Edit: Even better with no slow down from the flight deck we arrive hours ahead of the big bad or right on time, and teleport everyone to safety the end.
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...So ignoring the situations where teleporters arn't an option or just don't have the capacity? Plenty of situations where shuttles have to be used due to some cosmic thing making transporters unavailable/unsafe to material/things that outright can't be transported.

Let alone the ship positioning itself between the threat and planet, possibly as close as it can get to the world and being a big obstacle between the enemy and location it's shuttles are working on. Relying on just transporters would be much slower even if multiple ships are helping. Can you imagine having to rapidly evacuate possible millions of people using just limited capacity transporters and organizing them out of the room so they can then lock onto the next group. Compared to the shorter timeline of both transporters and a fleet of shuttles with said shuttles able to drop people off on the flight deck before quickly leaving.

Also already got less transporters then we could've gotten.
 
LunaMoth said:
I presume its cause we just made a extremely successful science ship. Though this ship should include a bit of science, as I think making it more of a generalist 'big hull' is a good direction to take it.
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Point of order:
We made a very successful Biosciences ship; its very good at what it does, but its pretty specialized
Not very good at Science outside its niche, and we manufactured just six in a hundred years anyway

Wootius said:
I don't know how a negative preference for something is being twisted into "actually we really want this."
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By my reading, that entire sequence goes "We need Tactical + basic Science capacity as a minimum spec ; you have a free hand to prioritize the additional capacity as you see fit"
I cannot see how you are getting "We dont want Science on this ship" out of it

And by comparison to everything else, their silence about how much engineering is considered necessary is resounding
Compare it to Project Miranda's explicit brief about engineering
Or even how they mentioned Science or Tactical on the Federation-design spec
 
Tempest Warden said:
...So ignoring the situations where teleporters arn't an option or just don't have the capacity? Plenty of situations where shuttles have to be used due to some cosmic thing making transporters unavailable/unsafe to material/things that outright can't be transported.

Let alone the ship positioning itself between the threat and planet, possibly as close as it can get to the world and being a big obstacle between the enemy and location it's shuttles are working on. Relying on just transporters would be much slower even if multiple ships are helping. Can you imagine having to rapidly evacuate possible millions of people using just limited capacity transporters and organizing them out of the room so they can then lock onto the next group. Compared to the shorter timeline of both transporters and a fleet of shuttles with said shuttles able to drop people off on the flight deck before quickly leaving.

Also already got less transporters then we could've gotten.
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Well in that case yeah shuttles be helpful, unfortunately if your slow as a result of having them, then your likely to arrive a week late to the evacuation and have to scramble your fleet of shuttles to save 5% of the population then if you arrived a week earlier 50% of the population.

Being able to get to that evacuation on time is a major difference to not being able to.

Your also forgetting travel times, shuttles would still have to enter atmosphere, land, pickup, launch, get into a flight path and so forth it would take hours to days to evacuate maybe a handful of people at a time off planet to an awaiting starship in orbit.

Edit: short of having hundreds of these guys evacuating a planet of millions isnt happening. At all period. Making the shuttle craft flight deck totally useless.

Unless we are making a prospector/miner that can defend itself, then it can go mining for the resources we need.

Edit 2: With the flight deck it can do this very well, but we arent looking for a miner but a tactical/science (in that order of importance)
 
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Wootius said:
I don't know how a negative preference for something is being twisted into "actually we really want this."

@Sayle

Could you expand on "Having elected to work on a heavy cruiser you hand off Project Miranda to San Francisco. Project Federation is likely to be equal if not exceeding in mass any design you've built to date, and having an explicit mandate that you may elect to exclude scientific facilities beyond the basics means you can have some fun with the mission profile."

for Command's module preference? There is some confusion here.
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I'm not sure what the question is meant to be. What command module preference are you referring to here?
 
uju32 said:
By my reading, that entire sequence goes "We need Tactical + basic Science capacity as a minimum spec ; you have a free hand to prioritize the additional capacity as you see fit"
I cannot see how you are getting "We dont want Science on this ship" out of it
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Because it's not stated as "We need Tactical + basic Science capacity as a minimum spec," it is stated "an explicit mandate that you may elect to exclude scientific facilities beyond the basics"

This is a hint to not spend more then a basic lab, not a hint that they might want some kind of science ship.
 
[X] Conventional Secondary Hull (Mass: 220kt) [Cost: 55.5)

A pure combat ship this shall be. Going down the Flight Deck option would be making this an Engineering ship, which isn't what we were asked for. We were asked for maximum firepower, and the best way to use that maximum firepower is with maximum speed. I want to cram down Starfleet procurement as pure a warship as we can make in order to make a point about why we don't make these, that means any redeeming features or things the might make it more useful for non-combat roles need to be dropped. I fully expect that only 1 or 2 of these monsters will be built, and I will be happy with such a result.

Edit: Also, based off that saucer we're effectively designing the Excelsior-class a few decades early. Let's get the design out there and use those decades to iron-out the problems before we reach the actual time we build the Excelsior equivalents.
 
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Cold Dust said:
Exactly, which is one of the most attractive features; this thing, at current, can cover a huge amount of distance over time. Ah, we really do lack the cohesion to make positively synergistic choices sometimes. We lose modules to give it a nebulous tactical advantage after being told tactical was secondary (an important secondary though) and modules are absolutely vital. We also lose size in the same transaction, reducing shield and weapon strength... Thus weakening it.

Now we're debating giving it a flight deck and crippling its ability to flee a battle, then limiting its amazing cruising ability that we invested a lot of $$$ in to try to get some of its peak speed back. Bleurgh. What a mess.

Also I don't think we have attack fighters. I'd be very dubious unless you get very explicit statements by the QM. They don't make a helluva lotta sense in a Trek setting due to energy and shield densities, so please don't pretend that's a hidden tactical advantage.
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Attack fighters are also bad because they're glass cannons at best, and we don't use pilots as expendable flight computers. The only real role for armed shuttles is ground assault and low-intensity warfare when the real starships don't get involved.

That said, can we avoid the doomposting about how three votes in and we've inevitably doomed ourselves to a boondoggle of a design because of the predestined choices of the thread?

BeepSmile said:
@Sayle what do we need to do to make this pancake rotate as part of it's regular functions?

Actually: Flying Saucers with warp-drives: How can we get those? I want them.
Give them to me.
Please.

Edit: Thinking of what I want this ship to do now, the near future, and the distant future...
Apart from "Can throw fists good, and good strategic speed due to the Federations large area", what do people want from this ship?

The shuttle swarm is good for stuff in the distant future - general engineering and patch jobs that'll hold until the Archer eventually gets there, and it'll keep being useful for regular duties

But it won't be able to respond to emergenices as well, due to reduced sprint.
And if we do keep the higher sprint, what do people want to use it for?
I know we weren't asked for a science ship, but the idea of a speedy research hospital/specialised bio-lap coming to the rescue does appeal. A lot.

But apart from 'hospital/bio/disease research fast responder', does anyone have any suggestions for what other non-combat functions would be served by this ship?
[Long range/high speed small volume cargo is my other idea]
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Emergency response is still a cruise speed thing unless we're, like, right there already. Less than a day at maximum warp. Not very many light years.

Diplomacy, surveying, cargo, emergency repair.

zac1 said:
Well in that case yeah shuttles be helpful, unfortunately if your slow as a result of having them, then your likely to arrive a week late to the evacuation and have to scramble your fleet of shuttles to save 5% of the population then if you arrived a week earlier 50% of the population.

Being able to get to that evacuation on time is a major difference to not being able to.

Your also forgetting travel times, shuttles would still have to enter atmosphere, land, pickup, launch, get into a flight path and so forth it would take hours to days to evacuate maybe a handful of people at a time off planet to an awaiting starship in orbit.

Edit: short of having hundreds of these guys evacuating a planet of millions isnt happening. At all period. Making the shuttcraft flight deck totally useless.

Unless we are making a prospector/miner that can defend itself, then it can go mining for the resources we need.
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If you're travelling for a week your Maximum Warp doesn't matter, because Sprint matters for like twelve hours.

And again, people are WILDLY overstating what transporters are capable of. They're not capable of bulk for a start, especially since I'd be shocked if power expenditure didn't expand cubically with both volume and mass since that's how these things go irl. They're still useful, they can do amazing things, but they don't make physical transport obsolete. Not least because they can't be shut down by interference and/or transport inhibiters.

And that's before you get into how shuttles let you be in a dozen places at once in the same solar system.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Onionjones on Dec 20, 2024 at 8:31 PM, finished with 171 posts and 51 votes.
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[X] Flight Deck (Mass: 220kt) [Cost 55.5] (Maximum Warp: 8 -> 7.6)

Zulaq said:
[X] Conventional Secondary Hull (Mass: 220kt) [Cost: 55.5)

A pure combat ship this shall be. Going down the Flight Deck option would be making this an Engineering ship, which isn't what we were asked for. We were asked for maximum firepower, and the best way to use that maximum firepower is with maximum speed. I want to cram down Starfleet procurement as pure a warship as we can make in order to make a point about why we don't make these, that means any redeeming features or things the might make it more useful for non-combat roles need to be dropped. I fully expect that only 1 or 2 of these monsters will be built, and I will be happy with such a result.

Edit: Also, based off that saucer we're effectively designing the Excelsior-class a few decades early. Let's get the design out there and use those decades to iron-out the problems before we reach the actual time we build the Excelsior equivalents.
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... So you're saying you're deliberately trying to spoil the design, and we shouldn't count your vote.
 
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Tempest Warden said:
...So ignoring the situations where teleporters arn't an option or just don't have the capacity? Plenty of situations where shuttles have to be used due to some cosmic thing making transporters unavailable/unsafe to material/things that outright can't be transported.

Let alone the ship positioning itself between the threat and planet, possibly as close as it can get to the world and being a big obstacle between the enemy and location it's shuttles are working on. Relying on just transporters would be much slower even if multiple ships are helping. Can you imagine having to rapidly evacuate possible millions of people using just limited capacity transporters and organizing them out of the room so they can then lock onto the next group. Compared to the shorter timeline of both transporters and a fleet of shuttles with said shuttles able to drop people off on the flight deck before quickly leaving.

Also already got less transporters then we could've gotten.
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Point of order:
Transporters are going to be faster than shuttles, and will have more throughput
Shuttles are for situations where the destination is outside of range of the starship, or there is a complicating factor

If you are doing construction in a star system, and have away teams scattered in many locations? Shuttles
If you are studying several different phenomena of note with human crews? Shuttes
If your mothership has to be in just one location? Shuttles
If some weird shit is jamming your transporters? Shuttles

However
Under no circumstances are you going to be trying to do a mass evacuation, and think shuttles are a more reasonable option for moving people

I mean, you land your shuttle, load passengers, takoff, fly to the ship, unload, then go back?
Just in the time it takes you to load one shuttle with evacuees, a transporter woud have done many loads of peope
And that advantage compounds if there are several starships using their transporters

Wootius said:
Because it's not stated as "We need Tactical + basic Science capacity as a minimum spec," it is stated "an explicit mandate that you may elect to exclude scientific facilities beyond the basics"

This is a hint to not spend more then a basic lab, not a hint that they might want some kind of science ship.
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Yeah, we're definitely coming from different positions
Because Im having issues seeing how you came to that reading

If Starfleet didnt want any more science, they'd have been frank: No more Science beyond the minimum
Same as they did with the Miranda
Giving someone a free hand is not the same thing as dont do something; its "we're permitting you to use your judgement"
 
darkstarling said:
If you're travelling for a week your Maximum Warp doesn't matter, because Sprint matters for like twelve hours.

And again, people are WILDLY overstating what transporters are capable of. They're not capable of bulk for a start, especially since I'd be shocked if power expenditure didn't expand cubically with both volume and mass since that's how these things go irl. They're still useful, they can do amazing things, but they don't make physical transport obsolete. Not least because they can't be shut down by interference and/or transport inhibiters.

And that's before you get into how shuttles let you be in a dozen places at once in the same solar system.
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Yeah your right, so its unfeasible to try and evacuate a planet under a reasonable time frame even if you got dozens of shuttlecraft to do so.
 
[X] Conventional Secondary Hull (Mass: 220kt) [Cost: 55.5)

If it didn't cost .4 off the maximum warp factor, I'd absolutely take the Flight Deck. Unfortunately, if we did, we'd be basically stuck taking a Sprint configuration to keep the Federation's maximum sprint at or above Warp 8 (assuming we even get a +0.4 Maximum Warp option for the Nacelle configuration), and that feels like we'd be trying to have our cake and eat it too instead of making a generalist that's good all-round. If we get another option for something like a Linear Configuration, where it provides a mild boost to both Cruise and Sprint, that could potentially put our efficient cruise on the same level as what the nacelles can support for cruise anyways, while also enabling a sprint speed that's still pretty darn good for the time period.

EDIT: For my two cents on the Flight Deck - as noted above, I'd absolutely pick it if it wasn't for that hit to sprint speed potentially locking us into less favorable options for nacelle configuration, but as it stands I don't see the trade-off as worth it, especially when there will still almost certainly be room for a sizable shuttlebay in the aft of the secondary or primary hull anyways.
 
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[X] Conventional Secondary Hull (Mass: 220kt) [Cost: 55.5)
Our design brief is a formation anchor, that means not compromising any wartime capability. There's absolutely nothing stopping us from making it useful in other ways. If we can cram this thing full of science and engineering too, all the better, perhaps prioritizing engineering to ensure it's not crippled by a golden BB, and with at least some science to ensure we can escape negative space wedgies. If we're loading up on maximum phaser, the cost of labs is going to be absolutely nothing in comparison.
 
zac1 said:
Yeah your right, so its unfeasible to try and evacuate a planet under a reasonable time frame even if you got dozens of shuttlecraft to do so.
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Yes, but who is talking about evacuating a planet of millions of people? Obviously a single starship can't do that. A hundred starships over a few years couldn't do that. We've seen a few colonies of a few hundred people on the show, and even that would be a stretch because you can't exactly triple the life support load without consequences. If we were serious about evacuation we'd build a dedicated sleeper ship so we can stack people in oversized cargo pods like coffins, and THEN maybe we'd be able to do something, but that's not the goal.

That's not what a shuttle bay is for. A shuttle bay is to do bulk transit of supplies, or medivac mass casualty victims, or do surveying in person in a dozen places in a system at once.
 
It is reasonable to evacuate a bunch of scientific or mining stations however, even if it's not planetary level shuttles.
I don't want to do flight deck because I want sprint, but in no way is it a trap option that would invalidate the design.
I made the point with the warp core choice - if we are doing a purely defensive ship, protecting fixed points, sprint speed is effectively utterly useless. It certainly wouldn't have helped defending Andoria. But that kind of shuttle swarm would help the clean up after.

I just want my ship to be less forced into defence, and want to be able to be an anchor during more aggressive maneuvering.
 
[X] Conventional Secondary Hull (Mass: 220kt) [Cost: 55.5)

The flight deck's a really interesting idea, so I hope we see it again, but lower max speed and the lost saucer space is just too much for this ship.
 
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