Starfleet Design Bureau

Im coming to the conclusion that its not ship costs that are a drag on procurement numbers.
Maybe sustainment costs, as in operating costs, fuel(I suspect based on Klingon logistical woes that antimatter production is Expensive)and maintenance costs per year. Or ideology.

Regardless, frankly, cost of purchase shouldnt be a primary, or secondary consideration for our ship designs.
And we should try to squeeze in as much tactical capability into any ship design we get as a secondary goal.
Regardless of what the primary mission profile is.

Science ship? Fuck you, guns. Cargo? Fuck you, guns. Hospital ship? Fuck you guns.
Because when shit actually happens, Starfleet and the Federation's leadership will inevitably throw them and their crews into harms way anyway regardless of their original mission brief, and then expect miracles.
 
Im coming to the conclusion that its not ship costs that are a drag on procurement numbers.
It's certainly procurement costs, or the Federation would have replaced all those obsolete pure-military frigates with some number of less-militarized cruisers rather than keeping them operating to throw at the Klingons now.

That said, I think the Federation is ideologically incapable of providing funding for significant numbers of pure warships, so if we want there to be significant numbers guns to defend the Federation, we need to ensure our utility cruisers mount them.

Because those the Federation pays for.
 
So basically, because the federation is unwilling to have combat ships, every ship we build must be a combat ship, then?
 
So basically, because the federation is unwilling to have combat ships, every ship we build must be a combat ship, then?
Pretty much. The Federation is unwilling to have dedicated combat ships. Thus *every* ship must have a secondary goal of being combat ships- officially. Unofficially they're going to have to have dual primary roles of being both utility and combat ship.
 
I think to be fair, there simply may have been no good solution to the Klingon Empire.

They are a large, old, technologically advanced interstellar nation with centuries of experience at interstellar warfare and a culture that rewards success in war. Their greatest weakness from the Federation's perspective is political disunity. And from that perspective, you can see that a massive military build-up to counteract the threat of the Klingon Empire… might be the very thing that provides the Klingon Empire enough unity to be capable of providing the threat. You think they can't track the Federation's build orders?
 
I think to be fair, there simply may have been no good solution to the Klingon Empire.

They are a large, old, technologically advanced interstellar nation with centuries of experience at interstellar warfare and a culture that rewards success in war. Their greatest weakness from the Federation's perspective is political disunity. And from that perspective, you can see that a massive military build-up to counteract the threat of the Klingon Empire… might be the very thing that provides the Klingon Empire enough unity to be capable of providing the threat. You think they can't track the Federation's build orders?
Yes, but that has nothing to do with what was said, because as was better explained before, even if they were avoiding giving an excuse to the Klingons, given the size of the Federation and taking into account the fact that there are other hostile powers around, the number of ships for its own protection is totally insufficient, much less in a war.

How can you excuse this fact if not pure stupidity or even active malice?
The Sagmartha-class explorer is sixty five years old, and we only ever built 12x of them.
More than a third of Starfleet's numbers at the beginning of this war appear to have been composed of Selachiis and Cygnus-class ships. Antiques.

The D6 was known to be superior to everything in the Federation OOB, and there was no attempt to address this prior to the Excalibur.

And even the Excalibur wasnt exactly ordered in overwhelming numbers. If the retrospective remains valid, the Federation ends up building fewer Starfleet Excaliburs over the design's entire lifespan than the Klingons currently have D7s at this one battle.
As in, they literally build none after the war ends.

Thats not a Klingon superiority issue, thats a Federation political issue.

The problem I'm seeing here is that Starfleet is just fundamentally unwilling to procure dedicated Tactical Cruisers for anything less than a literal existential threat, and even when there is one, they're not willing to procure as many as they might actually need (The aforementioned "There are more D7s in this one battle than Excaliburs commissioned total, and this cannot be the entire fleet of D7s still afloat), even at risk of annihilation, and we still were expected to have it be able to serve an adequate secondary purpose if we wanted to justify even average expense despite its hardware.

And like, it's not like it's just us--even the Saladin, the El Cheapo "We can shit these out in job lots and while they're not a match for a D6 we can throw three in for everyone one", wasn't procured in particularly significant numbers, nor was the Newton really built in great numbers, and the fact that even with a Core World being threatened (And presumably damaged to boot), there's still apparently no will to build more Excaliburs than are already in the crash build session!

I just don't get it, this isn't even a "Suffering from success" where the core should be complacent, these fuckers thunder ran at a Core World, and even if we largely repulsed it through what's apparently marked heroics, it wouldn't have gotten this bad if we actually had the resources to match our responsibilities. But it's starting to feel like we're expected to produce miracles based on cash in the back of the couch.

Yeah, at this point it feels like the Federation is venturing into too dumb to live. They got complacent because we handled the Kzin so easily because they were actually fucking terrible at warfare against anything approaching a peer and now, we're getting obliterated for it. The Excalibur is an amazing ship, and it's basically forbidden from being built again except one crash build in the face of annihilation.
 
I think to be fair, there simply may have been no good solution to the Klingon Empire.

They are a large, old, technologically advanced interstellar nation with centuries of experience at interstellar warfare and a culture that rewards success in war. Their greatest weakness from the Federation's perspective is political disunity. And from that perspective, you can see that a massive military build-up to counteract the threat of the Klingon Empire… might be the very thing that provides the Klingon Empire enough unity to be capable of providing the threat. You think they can't track the Federation's build orders?
Problem is the Federation's own borders were porous in extremis, their own colonies were not in fact their colonies. They were fiefdoms of pirates who because Starfleet was lax to the point of active malice left said colonies out to rot unprotected and an afterthought, their populace forced to be labor for those who means them ill to be fought over by disparate pirate warlords with Starfleet never EVER coming to their aid. This is indicative of MASSIVE corruption and rot in the Federation and Starfleet itself, leaving colonies that aren't immediately useful as resource extraction to the wolves in order to try and observe a new space wedgie. Starfleet lacked the numbers it needed to perform its duties BEFORE the war, and a War only compounded the issue ENORMOUSLY.

Frankly we should have double to triple the numbers of ships we had just to ensure Security for most of our colonies if not all. The fact that Colonies being fought over more by pirates than by Starfleet and it wasn't uncommon to downright rare but extremely common? That's damning. That is a failure of governance on multiple levels. That is indicative of a government that does not care about its populace, unless said populace can exploit resources for it. It is at best corruption; at worst it's several very ugly and incendiary words I'll refrain from using. If we had had more ships, even out of date ones, we'd have been in a much better position tactically and strategically, because numbers have a quality all their own at times. But because we had too few ships for our territory to begin with, our defenses were essentially paper mache instead of anything the Klingons had to worry about. Now on the EVE of the Klingons showing that the vaunted invincibility of Starfleet isn't so much a myth but an outright lie, the Federation STILL refuses to commit to building more ships to ensure the protection of itself much less those who are supposed to rely on it.

We're not asking for a massive build up, we are asking for basic competency. Starfleet and the Federation lacked both and as such if the Klingons were not a bag of cats we'd have been conquered instead of losing a core world, having another one ravaged likely terribly, having to rely on member fleets, losing a substantial number of colonies and losing more than a third of our fleet before the pitched battle that is likely to make the final battle of the Romulan war's casualties look tame.

Frankly if i was a member state of the Federation i would SERIOUSLY be reconsidering being a part of it given not only is it incapable of protecting the citizenry abroad in the Colonies, but it also can't even protect Core worlds, nor does it seem to even wish too. It instead wants to build ships to study strange but ultimately harmless anomalies far from habitable worlds instead of fighting to keep it's constituents from being enslaved by conquerors.
 
Yeah, the Klingon Empire is meant to be scary , there's a reason their flag looks like that.

I also don't think it's going that badly. In the canon Klingon war the Federation lost a huge amount of the fleet in a six month long retreat back to the core worlds, where they then lose Starbase 1 and are expecting to lose Earth.

In this timeline there's a long slow build up that everyone sees coming, and when it does kick off the Federation is able to raid the Klingon supply lines while building up massive defenses. That turns the war into a miserable two year long slog. Now, at the beginning of the third year of the war, after finally getting close enough to take a shot at the core worlds, the Klingons flat out lose.
 
Part of me is thinking we ought to have gone with fewer massively overbuilt defense platforms above member worlds, and stuck 'giant fuckoff shipyard' in there as a secondary role. Mostly just because I'm not seeing terribly much benefit from the Pharos.
 
It's certainly procurement costs, or the Federation would have replaced all those obsolete pure-military frigates with some number of less-militarized cruisers rather than keeping them operating to throw at the Klingons now.

That said, I think the Federation is ideologically incapable of providing funding for significant numbers of pure warships, so if we want there to be significant numbers guns to defend the Federation, we need to ensure our utility cruisers mount them.

Because those the Federation pays for.
I dont think I agree.

Im getting the impression that there's political and PR friction both in getting new ships into service, and in getting old ships OUT of service. For a RL analogue, see how long the USAF has been trying to get rid of the A10 Warthog, only to have politicians and partisans of the design say no. Or how many people have tried to find excuses to bring back the USN battleships.

There's certainly industrial incentive to maintain a certain number of new ships every year, if only to keep the relevant skills and crews fresh in the event that there needs to be a sudden accelerated buildout, but Starfleet, or possibly their civilian superiors, evidently doesnt appear to see a need to do so.


That said, I think you're right about the ideological issues here. Which means we kinda have to account for them going forward.
I fully expect that after the first tranche of orders with arboretums, Project Darwin is likely to have a B-variant where the arboretum is ripped out for a cargo bay or enlarged medical bay.

And it will keep getting sold as a science or utility cruiser.
So basically, because the federation is unwilling to have combat ships, every ship we build must be a combat ship, then?
Pretty much. Because they WILL be used as such in combat situations.
And as Captain Paulson's peers are discovering, if they fail, they will be blamed for tactical situations engendered by strategic procurement decisions made while they were still in high school.

I think to be fair, there simply may have been no good solution to the Klingon Empire.

They are a large, old, technologically advanced interstellar nation with centuries of experience at interstellar warfare and a culture that rewards success in war. Their greatest weakness from the Federation's perspective is political disunity. And from that perspective, you can see that a massive military build-up to counteract the threat of the Klingon Empire… might be the very thing that provides the Klingon Empire enough unity to be capable of providing the threat. You think they can't track the Federation's build orders?
Frankly, noone has experience at this sort of interstellar warfare, because war across this sort of volume of space and at this sort of tempo was impossible before the advent of the Warp 7 and Warp 8 drive, which they acquired at the same time we did.
If they are better at this, its because they trained and prepared while we didnt.

And given how modern warfare is as much a matter of industrial decisions as it is the prowess of individual captains, you have to question how much cultural attitudes actually advantage their warmaking capabilities.


As for technology, I increasingly have doubts about that as an excuse.

The Klingons explicitly have advantages in power generation and weapons technology.
Not in material science, or computer technology, or in sensor technology, or drive technology or shield technology.
We're not talking some overpowering lead here, else we wouldnt have Excaliburs 1 v 3 ing D7s and surviving.

The D7, for example, is an explicitly Romulan collaboration, and the Romulans got their ass beat by the Vulcans, then got beat in war by the Federation in its very early days.

As for tracking Federation build orders?
The Federation evidently couldnt track theirs despite their being an empire with oppressed and resentful subjects. So who knows. Anyway, its not like weakness would protect us against them.
 
Part of me is thinking we ought to have gone with fewer massively overbuilt defense platforms above member worlds, and stuck 'giant fuckoff shipyard' in there as a secondary role. Mostly just because I'm not seeing terribly much benefit from the Pharos.
The one big benefit to the Pharos is the centralization of the Antimatter that acts as fuel for the War. Meaning we can deny them the ability to drive into our territory on our own dime and instead force them to use theirs. It slowed their advance enormously when combined with the convoy raiding our Excaliburs did. Which in turn forced the Klingons into an all or nothing gamble instead of just conquering us more slowly and getting an assured victory.
 
Im getting the impression that there's political and PR friction both in getting new ships into service, and in getting old ships OUT of service.
There's not enough friction in the world to have the Federation keep around a pure military ship when they could replace it with a utility cruiser. Ergo, if the Selachiis were phased out, they wouldn't be replaced.

Now, you can call that constraint whatever you want, but what it's not is operating expenses being the limitation on the number of ships Starfleet operates.
 
A decade long war would have also given the Federation a chance to get its feet under it and turn things around.

I love to see the Andorian Guard and the Vulcan explorers get involved in the war. And interesting to see the different design philosophies.

It looks like the Klingons are going to start bombarding Andoria to try to force a surrender, and it works just as well for them as it did for the Krogan against the Turians. And it ends up with the flagship crashed on Andoria and the survivors wiped by a blizzard. And I can't wait to see it.
 
There's not enough friction in the world to have the Federation keep around a pure military ship when they could replace it with a utility cruiser. Ergo, if the Selachiis were phased out, they wouldn't be replaced.

Now, you can call that constraint whatever you want, but what it's not is operating expenses being the limitation on the number of ships Starfleet operates.
I dont know if thats true.
It was entirely possible to replace the Selachiis(45 kiloton heavy frigates) with light cruisers that were tactically superior while being capable of other roles.

So I have to think that there has to be some reason why not.

The Selachiis were pure military ships. So they presumably werent doing much during peacetime besides border patrol or maybe pirate hunts, and the border patrol role gets deprecated as they fall behind the state of the art. A ship with a larger secondary role would presumably have a much higher operational tempo and thus, much higher sustainment costs.
 
Anyway, regardless of the issues the prewar-Federation had in terms of build strategy for Starfleet, post-war the Federation's leadership would be fucking braindead if defense isn't priority God damn #1 or at least #2 (Since rebuilding from the damages of war may rate higher).
 
Going by cannon, the first 3 Tranches of Constitution Class ships had like 30ish ships total. The Fourth tranche had 111 ships. The fourth tranche came about after the Klingon war. Aka Ship Cost and Yard Space was NOT the constraints to building lots of ships.
 
It honestly might be a really good time for a Miranda-Alike.

Smaller, Light Cruiser form factor.
Even balance of Engineering and Science Capability to give it decent response profile.
Good Weapon's spread for it's size.
Cruise Configuration Nacelles to allow for superior range.
 
Starfleet is basically demonstrating the same hubristic oversight we see in IRL. A technologically advanced and rich power decides it's the Big Dog and thus should only ever build a limited number of hyper-advanced and specialized platforms. And this will be enough to smack everyone else in the face.

They do this instead of building large quantities of good-enough platforms that they can put into a stockpile and use in an emergency, such as thrown at the frontlines to stiffen the numbers while modern shipyards pump out better stuff.

Forgetting that in Wars, everything is a consumable, even Warships. Starfleet designs, because of Starfleet's political nature as demonstrating the power of a Federation of Worlds, are all in someway supposed to be prestige platforms. Starfleet itself is basically supposed to show "wow look everyone, together we can make the most advanced ships that can do the most things", therefore the Admiralty doesn't want to pump out ugly flying boxes strapped with guns.

This is pretty much the same issue that Canon Starfleet had, before the battle of Wolf 359, and Sisko designing the Defiant in a cold mad rage. And even then it took the Dominion stabbing the Federation in the gut for them to really start mass-producing Defiants.
 
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[X] Plant Sciences (+8 Science) [Specialisations: Exobiology, Biochemistry, Plant Sciences]

Didn't see a vote tally so I'm still voting.
 
[X] Lead Coup against Federation, Install Military Junta
Nah, nah i got one better
[X] Write Ninety-Five Theses on how Starfleet and Federation Bureacrats are misusing and misappropriating funds instead of using them to protect the populace they purportedly lead.



Going by cannon, the first 3 Tranches of Constitution Class ships had like 30ish ships total. The Fourth tranche had 111 ships. The fourth tranche came about after the Klingon war. Aka Ship Cost and Yard Space was NOT the constraints to building lots of ships.
Meanwhile we get 18 total. Period. End of Story. Yeah for all our economy is purportedly better it sure as hell seems like the opposite.



It honestly might be a really good time for a Miranda-Alike.

Smaller, Light Cruiser form factor.
Even balance of Engineering and Science Capability to give it decent response profile.
Good Weapon's spread for it's size.
Cruise Configuration Nacelles to allow for superior range.
We go any smaller than the Excaliburs we end up losing on warp factor. Which is a huge issue that no one seemingly wants to even contemplate. You're basically proposing an Excalibur with slightly less weapons and cruise nacelles.



Starfleet is basically demonstrating the same hubristic oversight we see in IRL. A technologically advanced and rich power decides it's the big dog and thus should only ever build a limited number of hyper-advanced and specialized platforms. And this will be enough to smack everyone else in the face.

They do this instead of building large quantities of good-enough platforms that they can put into a stockpile and use in an emergency, such as thrown at the frontlines to stiffen the numbers while modern shipyards pump out better stuff.

Forgetting that in Wars, everything is a consumable, even Warships. Starfleet designs, because of Starfleet's political nature as demonstrating the power of a Federation of Worlds, are all in someway supposed to be prestige platforms. Starfleet itself is basically supposed to show "wow look everyone, together we can make the most advanced ships that can do the most things", therefore the Admiralty doesn't want to pump out ugly flying boxes strapped with guns.

This is pretty much the same issue that Canon Starfleet had, before the Wolf 359, and Sisko designing the Defiant in a mad rage.
Yeah, no. This isn't a design issue. It's a lack of production in general issue. There's only ever going to be Eighteen Connie alikes while in the Canon timeline they had HUNDREDS. This is a sheer and utter lack of care on the count of the leaders, as they don't even have enough ships to properly perform core duties of the Federation, and it was a running problem they refused to commit to solving. This Federation is so gun shy that I would not be shocked to see terrorists attacking the Federation governance centers for "Killing poor defenseless Klingons" or something alike. Because that is how stupidly pacifistic they are. When you stop even trying to protect your own people and instead let them be subject to the mercies of pirates enough that it is common occurrence? You're fucking up.
 
Something worth noting here. This war happens when it does SPECIFICALLY because the Klingons are aiming to smack us down before we could surpass them.

It's not entirely Starfleets fault that the Klingons came in before we were ready for them. We could have, and should have, been more prepared, but the realities of politics means that you dont get to fight only when you're ready for it.
 
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