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I really enjoyed doing the Ambassador, Voyager, and Sovereign class ships last thread. The seemingly small but meaningful changes we made really changed how the stories of those ships and their crew turned out and it was that that drew me into the thread.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well that's never stopped me before:
Duranium hull
140m thin saucer (140kt)
Large secondary hull (+50kt, 190 total)
2 Type-2 thrusters
Nacelles: cruise configuration
6 phasers (according to Memory Alpha) or 2-3 (according to Sayle)
3 torpedo bays, 2 fore 1 aft (MA) or 1 (Sayle)
Type-1 heavy shields
Secondary hull modules:
-Hydroponics
-Shuttle Cargo Bay
-Possible third module due to larger secondary hull
Main hull module, aft:
-Expanded Medical OR Science Labs
-Probably one less module here, due to thruster space requirements
Fore:
-Cargo bay
-Expanded Quarters OR Stellar Dynamics
140m thin saucer (140kt)
Large secondary hull (+50kt, 190 total)
2 Type-2 thrusters
Nacelles: cruise configuration
6 phasers (according to Memory Alpha) or 2-3 (according to Sayle)
3 torpedo bays, 2 fore 1 aft (MA) or 1 (Sayle)
Type-1 heavy shields
Secondary hull modules:
-Hydroponics
-Shuttle Cargo Bay
-Possible third module due to larger secondary hull
Main hull module, aft:
-Expanded Medical OR Science Labs
-Probably one less module here, due to thruster space requirements
Fore:
-Cargo bay
-Expanded Quarters OR Stellar Dynamics
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
This is exactly the kind of attitude to which I am referring.
For example, there has been a sentiment of "We don't want to call any of these Enterprise" and guess what, even if we had picked "Constitution" as the name for the class, which we haven't, the namespace Sayle described for that would have required a great deal of spiritual stretching to include Enterprise.
We made different decisions in the leadup to now, leading to an early, much more destructive, war with the Klingons looming over us during this design, which led to making choices than were distinctly suboptimal for an exploration vessel because we weren't asked for one, we were asked for a warship to beat Klingon Battlecruisers with.
There is a desire to construct a larger vessel, not to be limited to a mere 200 ktons as this design was and likely with little thought as to cost, to follow in the footsteps of our previous two built for purpose exploration vessels and be built around the Five Year Mission specifically, and that we do so in the next two to three decades so Kirk can have an Enterprise even more impressive than the original, because we like doing that (Remember when we worked to get Janeway a better ship for that little snafu in the previous thread, or the absolute monster that was the Alt-Sovereign from the same?) and just because we can, which is reasonable to assume that an opportunity with arise to do so; even if, as it was suggested not by me, this requires some minor bureaucratic malfeasance and labeling it "Totally a Kea successor, really" to get it built. Something we did before, if you might recall, to get the Stingrays built; which retrospect proved a wise choice given their important role in the Earth-Romulan War.
As I said (and you seem to have missed) I expect that the Excaliburs will be subbing in for and or supplementing the Sagas as we spin those down into retirement (however many of them survive the coming war, anyway) and have little problem with this, I simply am of the opinion that the previous demonstrated effectiveness of purpose built vessels, in which I also include the Skate, Selatchii, Thunderchild, Kea, and Archer at a minimum, not simply the NX and Sagarmatha, lends itself to supporting the argument that a purpose built Explorer with no other pressing design considerations pushing it away from optimizing for the role as the Excaliburs absolutely had, is both wise and in character for Starfleet.
And given that is the case, Sayle having stated on more than one occasion that Starfleet is not stupid, I would expect that an existing exploration specialist would be tasked with doing that preferably over a ship that isn't an exploration specialist, even if it has some ability to do the job okay.
And whilst I detest sinking to this level, the people throwing a temper tantrum over "BUT THIS IS DE CONNSTERPRIZE, IT EXPLORER" when "exploration" wasn't even a consideration asked for in the design brief are extremely frustrating to at the very least myself, as I actually read said brief (as it seems many of you did not) without the preconception attached to the name "Constitution" and it flat out does not ask for an exploration vessel in any way, shape or form. It asks for a warship, preferably one that isn't too large or expensive so it can be built in numbers, because the aging Sagarmatha class isn't up to playing heavy metal anymore (which, fair enough, it's one of the oldest ships in our inventory still in service.)
And we delivered exactly that. With all other abilities strictly as incidental or after-core functions, to an even higher degree than the original timeline Constitution, which was designed with lesser external pressure to perform in the role of "Warshippiest Warship we can design".
and there isn't anything wrong with that. I fully expect the Excalibur to perform well in the role for which it was actually built (stabbing Klingon Battlecruisers). I also expect it will at best be below average in performance outside said role, particularly compared to a specialist vessel of similar technical sophistication. We have consistently had good results by designing specialists (even if said specialization is "Not having one"), I see no reason to neglect to do so any further than exigence demands.
I am also confused about why people seem to think that I am saying that Explorers aren't 100% warships, and powerful ones at that, despite my stating multiple times that being a powerful warship is explicitly a part of the Explorer's design considerations. it simply isn't the only consideration as it is for a pure Warship, whose sole concern is cost-effective warfighting ability, and anything else being add-ons in the free spaces around that, which can be sacrificed for additional fighting ability without thought.
Essentially: An Explorer must be a Warship, but a Warship is not always an Explorer. We didn't build the Excaliburs as Explorers, we built them as warships. and there isn't anything wrong with that. it simply means that those of us who want an Explorer sooner than later, will have to advocate for one to be built, one way or another.
KleverKil'Vanya
Ortillery Operator
I am kinda wondering why this was called out as the Connie comparison ship when it wasn't developed for another like 40ish years?
Wouldn't the ship after our next design be more appropriate timeline-wise?
Wouldn't the ship after our next design be more appropriate timeline-wise?
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
No, the Connie was a really old design when Kirk became Captain.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The canon class was launched in '46, we're only about 12 years early.
darkstarling
Brilliantly Crazed
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Fascinating. So based on modules we've got much less cargo and our science is comparable but shuffled around a bit. Less specific capacity. Much heavier firepower. Better medical and tools.
So yeah, looks like we may in fact be worthy of the original Enterprise. This is good.
If we're coming up with names, I do like the USS Kusanagi as the hero ship for this class. Because it's the only sword name I know whose legend revolves around ingenuity and intelligence rather than how many people it can kill.
I'm thinking it has to do with the context more than anything, which I'm fine with.
- Location
- Australia
Oor, hear me out.
The thread might wither and die from the constant negativity, rehashing of points and argumentative attitudes.
I love debating mechanics with you, you bring a good designer head space in.
But when asked to stop and seeing many comments on people not wanting to comment on certain topics any more, and other people saying that need to leave the thread for a while... that's not the time to keep reiterating the same points with paragraphs of text on the subject you've been asked to drop.
It doesn't matter if you are wrong or right any more. It matters that the arguments themselves are damaging.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Technically wrong, that's a guesstimate from the Enterprise dedication plague from SNW, which I don't think Sayle considers to be canon. The intention of the TOS writers was that the class was about 40 years old by the time of the show.
darkstarling
Brilliantly Crazed
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The Excalibur class, which I think is winning, is actually very nicely connected to the Constitution name. Excalibur, too, is about the right to rule. And the central legend of King Arthur is the use of might FOR right. Bringing righteousness, deliberation and order to the grim neccessity of the use of force. Bringing the disparate nations of the Brittish Isles into a united whole that was, for as long as it lasted, glorious.
Yeah, I can get behind this. And, because we're Starfleet and we learn, this time the Candle In The Wind is getting a lamp.
So the USS Kusanagi of the Excalibur class, hero ship of at least two shows. I love this plan.
See, one reason I like this thread is it's making me rethink the original series Enterprise and its role in Federation history. Not as a cutting edge ship like Voyager or NX-01, not fundamentally a science ship like the Discovery, not a flying piece of the Federation like the Enterprise D. But a solid workhorse made truly extraordinary by her crew.
Yeah, I can get behind this. And, because we're Starfleet and we learn, this time the Candle In The Wind is getting a lamp.
So the USS Kusanagi of the Excalibur class, hero ship of at least two shows. I love this plan.
Either way, it's old enough for Pike to have served at least one complete tour on the Enterprise. Possibly more than one.
See, one reason I like this thread is it's making me rethink the original series Enterprise and its role in Federation history. Not as a cutting edge ship like Voyager or NX-01, not fundamentally a science ship like the Discovery, not a flying piece of the Federation like the Enterprise D. But a solid workhorse made truly extraordinary by her crew.
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- Location
- Australia
In hindsight, I watched the original series so young that the next generation coloured a lot of my opinions. I absolutely saw the Enterprise as an amazing almost supership, flagship of the entire fleet. If it was over matched, that spoke of the incredible nature of the other race, with the Enterprise being the best humanity to offer in everything from technology to ethics.
That's even knowing about Pike. Intellectually I knew it wasn't new, but I don't think it clicked until literally you just put these words down that my view was wrong.
Thanks for pointing out out! Nothing like examining one's biases and seeing how it changes your view of everything!
Now I'm wondering (And I am not talking this ship, or another ship, just in general. I'm not joining the debate I've actively wanted people to end) how Kirk's story would have been different with an overwhelmingly stronger ship. Something new at cutting edge at the time, rather than a workhorse.
How much of his skill came from overcoming the odds by the skin of his teeth? If all his combat problems were solved by just ordering nine torpedoes fired instantly, would they still be the crew that realised they had to focus on three dimensional combat against Khan?
So many of their problems forced diplomacy and problem solving. With TNG the prime directive was a bludgeon that prevented overwhelming power solving all problems, but Kirking problems was a lot less restrained by the rules to put it mildly.
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darkstarling
Brilliantly Crazed
- Location
- Columbus, Ohio
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Declaration class does have a certain ring to it
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
I mean, we can also just accept that we're not going to see the level of F L A T we got in the Skate and Selatchii classes and accept everything is going to need either enough saucer thickness that a modest superstructure can get it to the required 7-8 decks, or a 30-35 meter diameter engineering hull so the warp core will fit. That ships thinner than 7-8 decks tall at their tallest point just aren't going to be a thing for us anymore.
I suspect, however, that the War Updates will take place over the course of designing a new nacelle- It took us about six years for the last one, which I feel is about right for a war we're (hopefully) not losing quite so badly as the original Four Year War presented.
edit: With, perhaps, an option or two to refit some number of vessels before the war actually happens, like a decision on the Kea refit to add torpedo launchers, perhaps getting rapid launchers into some of the Sharks, etc.
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- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Constitution-class
Enterprise go brrrrrrrrrr
Enterprise go brrrrrrrrrr
- Location
- Australia
[X] Declaration-class
I like this. Same, but different. Assertive, but not aggressive. A statement of lines that can't be crossed and intent but not just a weapon.
I would actively enjoy this as a story telling method. Hopefully the retrospective gives the major outcome, and we get snap shots during whatever we next design of either the build up towards War or how it plays out, dependence l depending on timing.
I like this. Same, but different. Assertive, but not aggressive. A statement of lines that can't be crossed and intent but not just a weapon.
I would actively enjoy this as a story telling method. Hopefully the retrospective gives the major outcome, and we get snap shots during whatever we next design of either the build up towards War or how it plays out, dependence l depending on timing.
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Take a saucer and put it on its edge, pizza-cutter style? Maybe drop the engineering hull entirely.
Or would that be deviating too far from established warp geometry?
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It might be nice to design an Archer-deployable modular mini-station. Three or four containers mounting a bajillion phasers. (Reminder that stations can fire as many simultaneous phasers as it wants)
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With the way people have intermittently bemoaned the lack of stats/info about the D7, might be worth building an intel ship. Something maybe smallish that runs quiet, has big ears, and just sits in interstellar space for months, intercepting transmissions.
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You forget Pikes predecessor Robert April that also had her for years beforehand.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Honestly if we're aiming for an ultralight design like that we might as well just stick a pair of Type-2s in and have a slightly more permissive mass budget - with the way Sayle does the diagrams we won't be able to fit anything into the tail anyway, so we're not preserving space only using one thruster.
- Location
- USA
[X] Constitution-class.
