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uju32 said:
You dont know that.
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The only refit we know for sure is happening before the war starts is the Kea class getting torpedoes in 2240. Other than that it's a big ???.

Refitting with newer shields is certainly possible, but shields are pricey and this will still be relatively new tech. Like for a 150kT ship, Standard Covariant shields cost well north of 15 Cost; three or four refits is the same amount as an entire small ship! It makes more sense IMO if you're expecting a war soon to plough those resources into building more ships with Warp 8 cores, either more Constitution-class ships, or some sort of Warp 8 escort to fight alongside them.

Or if you're doing more refits, then spend that money on giving more Rapid-Fire Launchers to things; tripling torpedo firepower is better than a 33% increase to shield power.
 
uju32 said:
Cost-effectiveness has very little place to play in a major war between major powers
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This has basically never been the case in the history of warfare. Armed forces have always, always been highly cost-conscious.
uju32 said:
Because you go to war with the navy you have, not the one you wish you might have.
If, for example, Rapid Launchers become standard on the Klingon D6s, or some better disruptors, covariant shield refits become more or less mandatory even if only to eke out a little more survivability in your ships.
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Bringing a ship in for major refits to rip out its entire shield system and replace it with a new, more expensive one will not be easy or cheap. Refits like this are actually very rare IRL, and almost always happened for political, not military reasons.
 
I don't like approval voting but hell freezes over before I allow us standard shields on this thing.
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]
 
landcollector said:
*shrug* I do not get the same read from the QM's posts.
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Some one some pages back said they'd outright asked them if it could be a far more powerful and in reply got what was basically a no.

While admittedly not definitive. I consider it good enough a reason to argue they won't be some super OP ship. Aside of the other available reasons of them having arrived early, meaning the Klingons would be unlikely to have been able to develop super tech for it, and it being a far smaller ship... meaning it would struggle to fit nearly as much armaments in case they tried to overstack it with them.


Over all, it being far more powerful then in canon just seems unlikely... Especially as so far we've heard the D6 was probably normalish as well, if perhaps also slightly early. So my personal opinion is that in a sense the Klingon are upping their game, but seem to be doing it more in accelerating new ship development a bit, rather then gaining super tech no one has seen or heard about.
 
uju32 said:
Because you go to war with the navy you have, not the one you wish you might have.
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This depends entirely on if the ship yards that build ships are the same that do refits.
If they have the choice between updating a ship at high cost and minimal effectiveness, or building a new ship at high effectiveness I think they would build the new ship remember they feasibly can.
 
Honestly if we were doing any kind of Covariant at all, I could see the case for Large Type-1 Covariant simply because this thing is going to be quite valuable and it would be a shame to lose one. Especially if we've pushed the Cost per unit north of one hundred, lmao

"The bureaucracy budget overrun is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy budget overrun."

But Large Type-1 seems fine, perfectly adequate for the job especially given we will be able to evade enemy fire and kill enemy ships quicker, and still leaves the door open to refits after the war to stay current against new potential foes like the K'Tinga.
 
Presuming my math is right, pursuing heavy type-1 shielding over heavy covariant shielding will get us six block one ships for the cost of five, at the expense of roughly 20% of the ablative durability per ship. Note that this is ablative durability, not overall durability.
In block two, this will become a ten to nine ratio, and maintain the 20% ablative durability bonus.
Short term, type-1 heavies are the way to go. Long term (or, one estimates, either right as the war kicks off or shortly thereafter), covariant heavies are the better pick.
Choosing any other shield type is half-assing, and you should never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing. Comes down to this: do you want fewer, tougher ships, and comparatively less likelihood of attrition, or do you want more, somewhat more fragile ships, the possibility of additional attrition, and the option to refit them to the tougher shields five, ten, or twenty years down the line?
 
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
 
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]

It's a big cost difference at a really crucial juncture, for a less-than-5-years timeline bump for the tech.

I'll be happy to pay through the nose for the next shield update, assuming it doesn't come at a similarly terrible moment. Sure, the Klingons are more advanced than us, but the canon Connie got by just fine with Type-1s and a great deal less armament and maneuverability than this ship has.
 
For the record I'm at the point where my personal preference is to hang the cost and just go all in, but I approval voted both heavies.
 
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
 
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uju32 said:
Cost-effectiveness has very little place to play in a major war between major powers
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Sorry, but I have to hard disagree with that. If you could make 3 neo-Connis with 8 phasers, covariant large shields, 3 fore rapid-fire torpedo launchers and 1 aft rapid-fire torpedo launcher, they'd almost certainly lose against 30 canon D7s.

Cost effectiveness is absolutely crucial, and if anything moreso when you've got large-scale industry and fleet movements. That's why we don't automatically implement the most powerful version of every piece of hardware we have. Cost is an abstraction of the difficulty, rarity and resources that go into making a specific good or service.

Being able to replenish your war fleet and efficiently produce more ships, crews, troops and other hardware and do so on a large scale and a fairly quick timetable is pivotal to winning a war.
 
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Wootius said:
We got both, omg. Not even going to vote on Shields I'm so happy.

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Never mind with standard shields our price is under 80 for the second run. GIVE IT TO ME.

[x] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
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Apropos of nothing but this is also how I feel knowing that because we put the Rapid Fire Launcher on this ship, the Kea will now also be refitted with one rather than regular torps.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M
 
[X] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]

...aaaand approval voting for the options that actually have a chance.

[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
 
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Crusher Bob said:
Think the Newton is the only modern ship that we could conceivably refit with covariant shields? But it has a warp 7 engine, so a major refit is probably not that attractive. The Keas don't have torpedoes, the Selachii are around 40 years old and max out at warp 7.2 (compared to our warp 7 max cruise). So we don't really have anything in inventory that we'd really want to refit covariant shields to.

AFAIK, we'll theoretically have the option to refit the USS In your face, Time Police with a with a warp 9 core (which is why we went with an early warp 8 core). So the hull has potential to be in service for some time. A refit to covariant shields and all rapid fire launchers something like 30 years from now seems plausible, and a 'last' refit to warp 9 core, type 2 shields, new phasers around 50 to 60 years from now is at least possible.
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Point of order, the Keas do have torpedoes - we didn't fit them initially but they were given a pair in a refit when we made torpedoes standard issue. I would say that Keas (as the budget cruiser) and the Selatchii (as a dedicated combat ship and one of the most numerous and smallest ships in our fleet) are actually the most likely to be chosen for any hasty War Refits.

the Kea, as mentioned, is basically a proto-connie after the torpedo refit, and the ship likely to be filling out the "bulk line Cruiser" role in the coming war (if it indeed occurs), a shield refit would definitely not be atypical at this time.
The Shark on the other hand is small- one of the smallest ships in Starfleet service, in fact-and we have a goodly number of them; refitting at least some of them with new shields and possibly torpedo launchers in the leadup to a war would not be exactly a foolish or unjustifiable expense, even if one expected to retire the class as soon as the war's over, since their small size means that smaller yards that can't build modern ships are able to handle them, and the actual installation is simpler and faster.

So ironically the two ships you picked as negative examples are actually the most likely pair, of all our existing fleet, to receive end-of-life refits!
 
Horologer said:
[X] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]

...aaaand approval voting for the options that actually have a chance.

[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
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If your intention is to control costs here (which by my understanding it is), then I might avoid voting for the Standard Type-1 Covariant? It's the most realistic contender to the Type-1 Heavy right now, and boosts costs significantly on the first tranche.

Of course I get the point of approval-voting to prevent the Heavy Type-1 Covariant from winning, but based on the tally right now, that does not seem tremendously likely.
 
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