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[x] Type-1 Standard [27 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 84.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 78.75]
Nope, heavy goes to 91.something in the second tranche.
That being said, it gets real close.
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
Someone asked about capabilities of the D7. Sayle did not provide specifics, but suggested that it was half as massive and this was largely a product of "Nakedly superior" weapons and shield technology. This is causing no few of the "Heavy Covariant please" people to be concerned, let's say, regarding the way the vote is shaping up.
StriderInCosmos
Wanderer in the Worldsea
- Location
- Somewhere in... Terminal Dogma? I think?
This thread has been moving fast enough with the debate over just about every aspect of this Project that I've probably missed a few things myself. It's nothing if not almost like an actual boardroom on Utopia Planitia (or San Fran, depending on where we decide to do most of our collab), I would think.
Did some math, and have come to the conclusion that Heavy Shields are the best option.
I used two different methods.
First, square the result of 1/price, then multiply with Shield value. This essentially multiplies total firepower with total survivability. So, if, say, one option results in 10 ships with 20 Shield each, that's 10*X total firepower, where X is firepower per ship, multiplied by 10*20 total Shield. Meaning if the ships are all constantly shooting and damage is distributed evenly between all of them, the result tells you how much damage they inflict before being destroyed.
The second method is to simply take price divided by Shield value, with lower numbers being better.
With both methods, Light Covariants are the clear losers.
With the first method, the Type-1 Shields beat the Covariant Shields by about 15% at first, then by about 5%, with the difference between Standard and Heavy variants for both Type-1 and Covariant being negligible, about 1%.
With the second method, Standard Type-1 Shields are the second worst, then Standard Covariant, then Heavy Type-1, then Heavy Covariant.
The difference between Heavy Type-1 and Heavy Covariant is just under 2% at first, then grows to about 8%.
Furthermore, keep in mind that, should the price of the ship grow further, it will hurt the cheaper shields more.
Also keep in mind that, given how strong the alpha strike and maneuverability are, any enemies the ship faces will be heavily incentivized to ambush the ship and destroy it before it can react, and stronger shields make that more difficult, possibly being the difference between enemies destroying it and enemies trying and failing to destroy it and then getting clowned on, or them simply not even making the attempt.
In conclusion, the best options are to either start with the Heavy Covariant, or eventually upgrade to it from the Heavy Type-1.
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]
I used two different methods.
First, square the result of 1/price, then multiply with Shield value. This essentially multiplies total firepower with total survivability. So, if, say, one option results in 10 ships with 20 Shield each, that's 10*X total firepower, where X is firepower per ship, multiplied by 10*20 total Shield. Meaning if the ships are all constantly shooting and damage is distributed evenly between all of them, the result tells you how much damage they inflict before being destroyed.
The second method is to simply take price divided by Shield value, with lower numbers being better.
With both methods, Light Covariants are the clear losers.
With the first method, the Type-1 Shields beat the Covariant Shields by about 15% at first, then by about 5%, with the difference between Standard and Heavy variants for both Type-1 and Covariant being negligible, about 1%.
With the second method, Standard Type-1 Shields are the second worst, then Standard Covariant, then Heavy Type-1, then Heavy Covariant.
The difference between Heavy Type-1 and Heavy Covariant is just under 2% at first, then grows to about 8%.
Furthermore, keep in mind that, should the price of the ship grow further, it will hurt the cheaper shields more.
Also keep in mind that, given how strong the alpha strike and maneuverability are, any enemies the ship faces will be heavily incentivized to ambush the ship and destroy it before it can react, and stronger shields make that more difficult, possibly being the difference between enemies destroying it and enemies trying and failing to destroy it and then getting clowned on, or them simply not even making the attempt.
As an example of how the ship could fight, to illustrate why trying to take it in a straight fight would be extremely painful:
The ship charges at you, firing phasers and 5 torpedoes, then speeds past you, firing off one last torpedo and also that one aft phaser. Already, you have taken massive damage, but at least the ship will need some time to load the next 6 torpedoes. Except the ship isn't turning back to you, it just keeps going. By the time you turn around and go to chase it down, it has created plenty of distance, and unless you also have top tier maneuverability, it can simply accelerate harder than you and get further and further away. Until, eventually, the torpedoes are ready to fire again, at which point it flips around and alpha strikes you again.
Now consider that this is merely one option it has, that should the enemy attempt to counter this specific tactic, it has the flexibility to adapt.
Meaning that if anyone wants to fight someone who has some of these ships, they have to have ships designed around it, with countering it in a cost-effective manner being a nice-to-have, and not having a vulnerability it can exploit to destroy ten times or even a hundred times it's cost in ships being a minimum. And then when and where to deploy your ships also has to be planned around these ships. Simply by existing it forces enemies to work around it.
The ship charges at you, firing phasers and 5 torpedoes, then speeds past you, firing off one last torpedo and also that one aft phaser. Already, you have taken massive damage, but at least the ship will need some time to load the next 6 torpedoes. Except the ship isn't turning back to you, it just keeps going. By the time you turn around and go to chase it down, it has created plenty of distance, and unless you also have top tier maneuverability, it can simply accelerate harder than you and get further and further away. Until, eventually, the torpedoes are ready to fire again, at which point it flips around and alpha strikes you again.
Now consider that this is merely one option it has, that should the enemy attempt to counter this specific tactic, it has the flexibility to adapt.
Meaning that if anyone wants to fight someone who has some of these ships, they have to have ships designed around it, with countering it in a cost-effective manner being a nice-to-have, and not having a vulnerability it can exploit to destroy ten times or even a hundred times it's cost in ships being a minimum. And then when and where to deploy your ships also has to be planned around these ships. Simply by existing it forces enemies to work around it.
In conclusion, the best options are to either start with the Heavy Covariant, or eventually upgrade to it from the Heavy Type-1.
[X] Type-1 Heavy [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 97.25) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 91.25]
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 103.25]
Joyful_Overkill
satisfaction in knowing your enemy won't survive.
[X] Standard Covariant [36 Shields] --- (Cost 79.25 -> 104.75) --- [Second Tranche: 73.25 -> 93.75]
We had 3/4 of the phaser output of canon last time there was a direct comparison. That's more than "barely half" And we have enough torpedo output to more than make up for it, in addition to being much more mobile to evade fire and bring our fire on target, as well as having aft phasers and photons to put additional damage on target.
We are already grossly superior to the canon Constitution as a tactical ship. Like we're close to the point where I'd bet we could actually fight it 2:1 and win. The Constitution would struggle to put photons on target, so it would be dependent on phasers to defeat a ship that could fire on it with photons, and we know from the Kea retrospective that this rarely works well. Killing one ship would put us in a position to gain the aft arc of the survivor and pound it with impunity, and they'd have to split initially to prevent us from doing this to start with.
Actually on this subject... what is the Mirror Universe going to do with their much more tactically potent Defiant. The canon Defiant you can imagine some ways it might get into trouble, but a ship that can pretty much dance around torpedoes and outpace anything in service would be much safer to use aggressively.
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
How does the Federation's economic/industrial capacity differ between Canon and this timeline? Did we actually get improved results from building out the fleet with more emphasis on anti-piracy and economic-buildup?
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
We don't know what we don't know. it's three decades early and we've been flapping wings since the Coalition of Planets era. For all we know, the D7 will start out with a cloaking device and plasma torpedoes because they allied with the Romulans earlier than in canon. We don't know, ergo, we make pessimistic estimates because it's far better to overestimate any enemy than the reverse (within reason).
"It was fine in Canon" is not an argument that holds water because this isn't Canon
[X] Heavy Covariant [44 Shields] (Cost 79.25 -> 116.75) [Second Tranche: 73.25 ->103.25]
I might add a vote for standard covariant as well.
I might add a vote for standard covariant as well.
- Location
- Somewhere and somewhen in time and space
If I remember right, the Federation is a bit more wealthier and has a bit more industrial capacity due to the Archer-class helping out with logistics.
Sure, but what's the point of going with covariants? The better tech doesn't actually make the output better unless we go heavy, and at that point the cost is pretty extreme. Covariant standard isn't better than type-1 heavy just because the technology is more advanced, and I don't think we're going to be replacing the shields on most of our warp 7 fleet.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Yes, I'm wondering if that actually means anything for ship construction, though.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
I mean, by that argument the D7 could also be staffed by Borg, made of tissue paper, and fire radioactive piranhas. There's no point dealing in 'might be's' of this nature, because they can be twisted whatever way you want. You can argue that the D7 will better than canon, I can argue it'll be worse because this is earlier in the timeline. Neither of us can prove it, neither has anything except supposition to back it up. It's not a useful argument in this context.
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Actually that's another data point. Our older ships likely aren't going to get any refits, or they'll be pretty conservative with said refits, because they're unable to keep up strategically or tactically.
2 obvious conclusions to draw, 1 is it'll be inferior either because the Klingons are using less-advanced tech' or they feel the need to buff their numbers in response to us. Either's a plausible reason.
2 is that it'll be superior but more expensive because the Klingons are alarmed by us, so are building a more expensive but more capable ship. With the whole cost/capability curve, losing 1 of these hypothetical highly expensive D7s would be more problematic for the Klingons.
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Answered earlier.
Yes it's possible, but this gets into territory where we're just doomed by QM fiat. I really doubt that anything like that would happen unless we made consistently terrible choices.
Also like once you start inventing hypothetical scenarios to justify your decisions, so can everyone else. Maybe the Klingons have freaked out and pushed to a Warp 9 engine and we will need every ship to stop them from strategically cutting us to ribbons. Maybe they have built a huge fleet of D7's and we will need numbers to hold them back. Maybe they have penned an alliance with the Tholians and we will face a two-front war.
Sarpedon
Knight Errant
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah there is no reason to expend yard space and time refitting old ships when they need more new ones in a wartime scenario
Yes, they said our tech was less good. They also said the ship is half our size. So about in the size class the Federation would consider a frigate.
There is currently also no sign this D7 is stronger the the one seen in series. And some of the combat examples we saw of it were it jumping out 'alone' against the Enterprize, getting in to a fight 'alone' on both side, and then them losing despite firing first.
Nothing in this gives any reason to think we need the strongest shields ever seen. There is also no logical reason for a single ship to engage a Klingon fleet, the typical response in such a case is to call in reinforcements to face the concentrated attack from the enemy. In which case you won't suffer the outnumbered issue nearly so much. And it isn't really clear why one would think in such a scenario Warp 7 ships can't help out as well. Just like it is unlikely at this point all Klingon ships are Warp 8, so a major concentration would probably be slower as well.
This all seems kind of overly panicky and worried over the Klingon threat well beyond what is warranted. Basically creating an ultimate ship, because one fears where one might need to b, rather then where one actually probably needs to be.
I asked @Sayle if our D7 would be roided up compared to canon, and he jokingly but fairly clearly said no. Do we really need to get him to confirm again?
This is getting a bit silly. Ships within the Quest generally remain the same as their canon analogues unless we do something specifically to change them.
Agreed, since the D7 isn't as massive their tech advantage is offset some. With our alpha having 30% more platforms seems like it would be pretty effective for mulching enemies.
Comparing Heavy Covariant (44 shields) and Type 1 Standard (27 shields) with a budget of 1000 comparing the gets you an extra 6 ships (~18 vs ~24). If we have a budget of 1500 we get an extra 9 ships (~27 vs ~36). In a war where starfleet is pushing ships as hard as possible and we get 2000 budget that's an extra 12 (~36 vs ~48).
If we can setup 30% more ambushes, task group leaders, more frequent patrols, cover more territory, etc. that's extremely valuable. With our sprint speed our ships can disengage from a lot of unfavorable scenarios and I doubt a D7 is going to be able to take on 2 of our ships and win. If they disengage and return home with no glory, loot, or damage to our infrastructure that hurts them more than it hurts us. If they FAFO so much the better.