*nods* DMs who want dangerous Kobolds can use things like shoot-and-scoot tactics (fleeing thru tunnels/corridors too small for medium sized creatures (like human, elves, and dwarves) to pass through easily, plentiful booby traps, ranged fire from defensive works, and IIRC, Kobolds have darkvision, mean more or less IR, so use of darkness to enhance attacks/retreats
Scaling Up
- Thread starter Kryslin
- Start date
I love how you add a heart warming bit of world building even in your thread replies.
FaerieKnight79
Verified Pixie
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- The Internet
Note, the rule of thumb I listed was for creating encounters for low level adventures, aka levels 1 through 3. By level 4 I'd start throwing more things with 2 hit dice or more at the party, or with more exotic abilities, or a combination of such features. Basically, starting with level 3 I'll track what the party is actually capable of, and design adventures to specifically challenge the party's actual capabilities. A party with no thief in it, I'll probably have encounter fewer traps. and that's one example.
Also keep in mind that Power Gamers have always thrown off the power curve of any given RPG. Some people just aren't happy unless they've made the most broken character possible that trivializes and defeats every encounter (including adventure boss) before the first initiative round. It's how things like the infamous "Spiked Chain Fighter" build for 3.5 came about. Said power gaming was... less possible in 2nd edition, because you flat out had fewer options. But 3rd edition and 3.5 really brought power gaming into the limelight. In truth, the gaming group I was in when 3rd edition first came out looked over the players guide, ran a few adventures with 3rd edition, then went right back to 2nd edition AD&D because it made player characters too powerful too fast.
Yes, in theory the party's enemies also have access to those same easily broken feats. But that's a lot of things for the GM to keep track of. In truth, my biggest problem with Pathfinder Society Organized Play was the fact that as a GM you had to allow those broken characters, so long as none of the feats or equipment are specifically banned by PFS Organized Play and the player can prove they have ether physical copies of every book used or a watermarked PDF of the books. Even worse, as a GM you couldn't disallow things you don't have personal access to, which can be problematic if someone's running a class or feat combo you don't have the rules on.
I took the time to print out the entire section on the Kineticist class from the book that's in, as well as the pages with every ability and feat I was running. That way I could hand any GM the rules for my character if they weren't familiar with it. But I was definitely in the minority for doing that.
Harry Leferts
Suave Shadow Cabal Kaiju
I remember one time that a friend of mine and myself were talking and he asked me if I had any ideas as to how to be a real ass to some players that were causing him trouble.
Me: Well, have a Necromancer involved-
Friend: Those are a dime a dozen.
Me: No, no... give me a moment. *Gets a nod* So, you have a necromancer who has raised a bunch of rats and dire rats as skeletons-
Friend: Those are weak though...
Me: Ah! That will be taken care of as said man has replaced the teeth and claws with metal ones. And they're all enchanted with cause disease, poison, and wounding.
Friend: O-kay... but still kind of eas-
Me: And the corridors all have knee to waist deep water, with said skeletons hidden in the murky water.
Friend: *Starts taking notes* So... any other ideas?
Me: Well, have a Necromancer involved-
Friend: Those are a dime a dozen.
Me: No, no... give me a moment. *Gets a nod* So, you have a necromancer who has raised a bunch of rats and dire rats as skeletons-
Friend: Those are weak though...
Me: Ah! That will be taken care of as said man has replaced the teeth and claws with metal ones. And they're all enchanted with cause disease, poison, and wounding.
Friend: O-kay... but still kind of eas-
Me: And the corridors all have knee to waist deep water, with said skeletons hidden in the murky water.
Friend: *Starts taking notes* So... any other ideas?
FaerieKnight79
Verified Pixie
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Sadly, Organized Play leagues don't allow such shenanigans, because you have to run the adventure exactly as written. And you have to allow any legal build, regardless of how much it's ruining the table for everyone else. For example, the regional Pathfinder Society Organized Play coordinator for my area likes to sit in at tables as a player whenever he can get away with it. And he always brings one of three builds, all of which absolutely break the game to the point he's usually ending every encounter, even the adventure's boss fight, in the surprise round. When he's suppose to only get one action if he can even act in the surprise round. Instead he's found a string of edge case rules and loopholes which are perfectly legal, and let him make 8 sneak attacks (at range) during the surprise round. Oh, and his builds use a variety of perfectly legal tricks to get a +12 or more bonus to initiative rolls (at level 1, it goes up at later levels). Thus ensuring he'll almost always be the first to act. And using the loopholes he's found, he can often have a +10 attack bonus... at level 1.
I've both sat at tables with him as a player, and had the misfortune to be the GM for tables he's sitting at. He bullies the other players into supporting his preferred play style (that enables his broken ass characters to "win" the game), he bullies players in any campaign he's participating in into changing their character builds into one he thinks is the only viable build (one that supports his broken ass characters). It's not fun to play with him as a player. It's even less fun as the GM. And over the last 14 years I lost track of how many neophyte roleplayers he's chased out of the hobby because he ruins the experience for everyone else at the table... including the GM.
Of course, then he tried running a Starfinder campaign. Only the only "roleplay" he understands is "roll dice, get told what happens". Any spells or abilities that are roleplay abilities, he doesn't understand and ignores. Which made an entire class of character entirely pointless since he was negating 80% of the class's kit. And I wasn't the only one in the group who had the majority of their character's kit negated. One person was relegated to "stamina healer", because the bard style class has most of it's abilities as ROLEPLAY tools rather then combat abilities.
Hell, he once reported me, thus getting me an infraction as a PFS Organized Play GM because I followed what the adventure said to do... and insisted on the basshat speaking in character when he was trying to persuade an npc to do something. The adventure specifically called out that based on what the players say and how they act, it can raise or lower the DC of the skill check. Up to making it an automatic failure if the players are threatening or extremely rude. Mr Basshat rolled an unasked for persuasion skill check, and expected his result of 17 on the die +26 in modifiers to pass the skill check. Which again was unasked for, because I was suppose to do the roleplay before secretly making the skill check since the player isn't suppose to know how well or poorly they rolled for such skills (or stealth, or bluff, or perception...). This was a level 3 adventure. When I finally got him to speak in character for his persuasion check, he cussed out and threatened the NPC... who was a local magistrate in disguise according to the adventure.
I've both sat at tables with him as a player, and had the misfortune to be the GM for tables he's sitting at. He bullies the other players into supporting his preferred play style (that enables his broken ass characters to "win" the game), he bullies players in any campaign he's participating in into changing their character builds into one he thinks is the only viable build (one that supports his broken ass characters). It's not fun to play with him as a player. It's even less fun as the GM. And over the last 14 years I lost track of how many neophyte roleplayers he's chased out of the hobby because he ruins the experience for everyone else at the table... including the GM.
Of course, then he tried running a Starfinder campaign. Only the only "roleplay" he understands is "roll dice, get told what happens". Any spells or abilities that are roleplay abilities, he doesn't understand and ignores. Which made an entire class of character entirely pointless since he was negating 80% of the class's kit. And I wasn't the only one in the group who had the majority of their character's kit negated. One person was relegated to "stamina healer", because the bard style class has most of it's abilities as ROLEPLAY tools rather then combat abilities.
Hell, he once reported me, thus getting me an infraction as a PFS Organized Play GM because I followed what the adventure said to do... and insisted on the basshat speaking in character when he was trying to persuade an npc to do something. The adventure specifically called out that based on what the players say and how they act, it can raise or lower the DC of the skill check. Up to making it an automatic failure if the players are threatening or extremely rude. Mr Basshat rolled an unasked for persuasion skill check, and expected his result of 17 on the die +26 in modifiers to pass the skill check. Which again was unasked for, because I was suppose to do the roleplay before secretly making the skill check since the player isn't suppose to know how well or poorly they rolled for such skills (or stealth, or bluff, or perception...). This was a level 3 adventure. When I finally got him to speak in character for his persuasion check, he cussed out and threatened the NPC... who was a local magistrate in disguise according to the adventure.
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Kinsfire
Verified {Redacted}
- Location
- New Jersey
Mobs are HORRIFIC to a party, if the DM is even vaguely skilled. Early on, I had a setup where the players were going somewhere through a cavern. They were first going to hit a handful of skeletons. (Level appropriate.) After that, they were supposed to run into a dragon, which I knew would drive them away in a different direction, without ever bothering it. I almost TPK'd the group with the skeletons - they should have been easy, but being a mob, they did a lot of damage. When it came to the dragon? sigh I was letting one of the players who I knew to be a good roleplayer do a character with a WIS score of 5. What I didn't realize is that he also apparently had a luck score of somewhere in the millions. I forget what it was in their inventory, but they found something that could do serious damage, and while they were trying to figure out what to do, this WIS 5 rogue snuck off and actually managed to use his skills to put what was basically a bomb into the dragon's MOUTH. The thing did enough damage that they all had the ability to attack it while it was still reacting to losing a LOT of HP. And they killed it at a level that normally they shouldn't have been able to.
BlazeStryker
<Confirmed Contradiction>
- Location
- Roanoke, VA
- Pronouns
- Him/He/Dude
I'd recommend you and the friend watch Arlentric's shorts on YouTube but the rest of your group might genuinely hunt me down...
Harry Leferts
Suave Shadow Cabal Kaiju
Holy shit, I am sorry, but I am just staring stunned at this. Like... I have no idea about your leagues, but they sound downright horrible. Because while I don't personally participate in the games themselves (don't have enough time for a full length game over different sessions), I've often spent time watching D&D sessions both at the local comic stores as well as at Hal-Con, which are official. And generally the rule has always seemed to be "Use the adventure paths as at best a basis and modify as needed depending on the players". And more than once, those power gamers found themselves getting assblasted by DMs who knew exactly how to fuck said players over.
Yeah, a good mob can always really screw with players if done the right way.
Nah, I am more an idea man because I have a shitload of Dragon and Dungeon magazines in my basement along with various suppliments and the like.
rustyirongolem
Verified Automaton
- Location
- North Carolina
Anyone that's ever played the old d&d module Dragon Mountain knows not to underestimate kobolds. I loved seeing seasoned players flinch years later when they ran into kobolds in other games.
Oh _god_ yes.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
I suspect that there's several factors at play:
Tiamat and Bahamut are active in the area, and working together, and while the draconic pantheon is/was diminished, very few gods (or their followers) want to risk upsetting them.
The same would apply to many arcane magic users. While many powerful spellcasters could defeat a dragon, a dragon god is something to be studied from a distance (or via disposable minions) before doing something that potentially irritates them.
Earth Bet is virtually unknown to the greater multiverse, and while some are curious (for good or ill), there's also the knowledge that the draconic pantheon, several of their powerful servants, favoured mortals, and a mortal favoured by the Lady of Pain are on that planet, which might put a few people off.
As for the well-intentioned, many of them would have their own duties and responsibilities that would keep them from travelling to another worlds.
- Location
- Here
... The Halfling Barbarian in the group was designed with a decent dex but only adequate str and con. Yes, he used a weapon fineness feat and an exotic weapon feat (kukri) to make the most of his dex bonus, but he himself admitted it wasn't a very good build.
They weren't Power Gamers, just Very Skilled ones.
Rajvik_wolfboy
Wolf amongst the stars.
- Location
- Florida
alright, so my current player base is as follows:
Situation:
edit: Do note that this is a 3.5edition Eberron campaign, and is six months prior to the start of canon, because the start of canon for my campaign starts wit a cannonball run style race around the continent
Shifter Barbarian-Player is experienced but usually plays the negotiator/diplomat in games. Is our other GM
Half-Elf Druid-experienced player, usually plays fighter/ranger/heavy weapons type, has a hyena for a animal companion
Elf Rogue- semi-experienced player, somewhat lacksadasical attitude and plays the trouble making Tolan in our SG-1 game
Warforged Wizard- Experienced player who usually plays the rogue in our D&D games or our hacker/netrunner in cyberpunk style games
Warforged Bard- semi-experienced player plays gun bunnies and barbarian/fighters otherwise
Dwarf Fighter- New player who is just learning the system picked this because it was an easier character to play.
Half-Elf Druid-experienced player, usually plays fighter/ranger/heavy weapons type, has a hyena for a animal companion
Elf Rogue- semi-experienced player, somewhat lacksadasical attitude and plays the trouble making Tolan in our SG-1 game
Warforged Wizard- Experienced player who usually plays the rogue in our D&D games or our hacker/netrunner in cyberpunk style games
Warforged Bard- semi-experienced player plays gun bunnies and barbarian/fighters otherwise
Dwarf Fighter- New player who is just learning the system picked this because it was an easier character to play.
finished "Forgotten Forge" from the Eberron source book
Currently running a murder/mystery adaptation of Sylvester Stallone movie "Cobra" (available on Youtube)
Warforged Bard decided to give me a free hand with his characters backstory by having "Amnesia" so somewhere in the last 60 years since the "invention" of Warforged by house Cannith, he spent a number of years working in House Phiarlan for the current head of the house for the city of Sharn, something he doesn't remember but she does.
They have uncovered two different syndicates through they don't know that they are unrelated atm, and the evidence needed to prove that there is a cult in the city, though they can't say who's cult it is or who is running it.
Currently running a murder/mystery adaptation of Sylvester Stallone movie "Cobra" (available on Youtube)
Warforged Bard decided to give me a free hand with his characters backstory by having "Amnesia" so somewhere in the last 60 years since the "invention" of Warforged by house Cannith, he spent a number of years working in House Phiarlan for the current head of the house for the city of Sharn, something he doesn't remember but she does.
They have uncovered two different syndicates through they don't know that they are unrelated atm, and the evidence needed to prove that there is a cult in the city, though they can't say who's cult it is or who is running it.
edit: Do note that this is a 3.5edition Eberron campaign, and is six months prior to the start of canon, because the start of canon for my campaign starts wit a cannonball run style race around the continent
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How recent was this situation?
Asking out of curiosity since there was an organized name drop that isn't even the organized group's name anymore, and the subsequent group has been attempting to weed out just this kind of behavior for literal years at this point.
EDIT:
Definitely not saying this didn't happen, but timeframe and context are important.
EDIT2:
I had a similarly toxic experience playing in an organized group for the World's Greatest Roleplaying Game a handful of years ago pre-pandemic, where I sat down to a table. We were told we could modify pregens to use 'as our own' so I changed mine from boring human to copper-scaled dragonborn -- and the person next to me had a fit because 'it wasn't optimal' and kept trying to run my character as if I was the 'gamer girlfriend' who didn't know what she was doing.
Note: At that point I had over thirty years of roleplaying games under my belt -- but quite literally none of them EVER addressed how to handle THAT situation and it was jarring, to say the least.
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FaerieKnight79
Verified Pixie
- Location
- The Internet
The last the time I participated in Pathfinder Society Organized Play regularly was in 2020. We decided to call a halt to things for health concern reasons, and happened to do so a month before the official shutdown occurred. Also, Pathfinder Society Organized Play is still the official name for Paizo's organized play for the Pathfinder RPG. I stopped attending regularly because the Lodge I was part of decided to move on to Pathfinder 2nd edition, and I had no interest in that edition after having experienced playing Starfinder with the lodge. Most sessions for that lodge get GMed by said regional coordinator, and the mechanics for Pathfinder 2e looked too similar to Starfinder 1e.
Don't know if the man's still the regional coordinator, but probably is. Last time I'd gone to the comic shop the lodge used for sessions was in November 2022, and he was still running the local Pathfinder Society lodge. The last time I GMed a table where he sat at was last year, since I'd agreed to run an "evergreen" level 1 adventure at a convention. He joined my table for my 3rd session running that adventure at the convention, and it's when he got me reported with an infraction for requiring him to actually roleplay. This was also the most recent time I'd gone over the PFS Organized Play rules to refresh my memory. And they still specified that adventures have to be ran as written, with no modifications outside of what the published adventure says you can change. As well as that you as a GM have to allow any character that's built legally, aka only with things that aren't specifically banned from Organized Play.
Mr Regional Coordinator brought in a character who was the exact same extremely broken build he always does, bullied the rest of the table into enabling his play style, and absolutely trivialized the majority of the adventure. It wasn't as broken as the build it eventually becomes, but that's only due to lacking the full set of required feats and highly specific magic items. His justification for running these OP builds that trivialize every encounter and destroy the fun of everyone else at the table? "I can't know in advance what people will bring to the table. So I have to ensure I can always carry any table I sit at."
To which the obvious answer is "if the enemies can do that, why wouldn't they continue to do that even if the players don't cause trouble"? Good tactics are good tactics; the villains won't stop using them just because the players behave.
Kinsfire
Verified {Redacted}
- Location
- New Jersey
I find it funny when I see the 'best/worst builds' for a given class. I had a great deal of fun playing a character that was apparently the absolute WORST build for a barbarian - DEX based female Elven barbarian. If we hadn't moved away from the group, I'd probably still be playing her.
- Location
- Dallas, TX
I started playing d&d with first edition back in 1980. I really think that the canine-ness of 1st edition kobolds is really a huge exaggeration. Even in the small black and white art shown in the first edition monster manual, kobolds are clearly depicted as having scales. I can't remember ever playing with a group who thought they were in any way dog-like.
Perhaps the groups I played with were just very very weird for the time, but a lot of the hallmarks of first edition d&d that are often cited by grognards online (such as exceptionally deadly dungeons with huge player character attrition rates, little or no role playing, and characters significantly weaker than those in subsequent editions) are the d&d equivalent of your dad telling you how he had to walk up hill to the school in the snow both ways everyday.
I guess that was a bit irrelevant.
That doesn't seem that all mysterious to me. People have all sorts of weird animals as pets. There have been cases of people with actual full grown tigers living in their apartment with them. Next to that a capybara is positively mundane.
FaerieKnight79
Verified Pixie
- Location
- The Internet
No, older editions being hyper lethal was DEFINITELY a thing. In 2nd edition at least, most saves are abysmal until fairly high levels, and non-human races have level caps of between 8 to 15 in most classes. Warriors could get up to +3 hit points from a high constitution score, while anyone else only could get +2 hit points from high con. And you absolutely did not get your full hit die worth of HP at level one. Or any other level. You had to roll for every level, including level 1. Which could lead to a fighter with 18 con having a grand total of FOUR hit points at level one, and potentially only getting 4 hit points each additional level. But said fighter probably doesn't have 18 con due to rolling 3d6 down the line for attributes. I've seen it happen, the party's wizard literally had the most hit points out of anyone in the group for the entire campaign.
You got a number of weapon and non-weapon proficiency, but the selection of both is limited by your class. Speaking of which, the DC for said non-weapon proficiency is "roll less then X attribute -Y". So for example if the attribute rolled against Dexterity, and the skill applies a -2 modifier then someone with Dex of 10 would need to roll an 8 or lower on a D20.
And published adventures were absolutely brutal. Instant death traps with no save, such as having a sphere of annihilation hidden in a crawl space that appears to be the only way forward, with the actual exit being at the bottom of a pit trap with poisoned spikes in it. The poison is a Save or Die type poison, btw. And the passage can't be seen unless you're in the pit trap. Or it's an adventure where the party's facing hundreds of frost giants. Then the next part they're facing hundreds of fire giants. And the final part they face... hundreds more of a third type of giant. It's a level 7 or 8 adventure. A ten foot pole really was a very useful, practically required item for someone in the party to have. If the ten foot pole suddenly becomes a 3 foot pole... you knew you were in trouble.
grommile
nasty-minded old cynic
- Location
- NERV-Mercia
- Pronouns
- Traditional/Animate
Special Module S1 Tomb of Horrors is a wacky outlier.
That said, 1e AD&D has plenty of horrifically lethal or deprotagonizing stuff even once you ignore the wacky outliers of S1 and (to a milder but still hair-raising extent) S2.
Green slime, yellow mold (and its countermeasure-punishing friend brown mold), gelatinous cubes, rot grubs, olive slime, mind flayers, medusas, catoblepases, violet fungi, pretty much every undead that isn't skeletons or zombies, yellow musk creepers, bodaks, magnesium spirits, ear seekers, being struck blind by looking at a nymph, being struck dead by looking at a naked nymph, your paladin being dragged underground in the middle of the night by meenlocks and turned into another meenlock, ...
The giant types are, in order, hill, frost, and fire. And dozens is closer than hundreds (even if you alert the entire establishment at once). And the recommended level for G1-3 is 9-12.
Side note: the nastiest encounter in G3 is probably the drow-staffed shrine to the elder elemental god.
Kryslin
[Has Delusions of Authorship]
- Location
- Mythic Iowa
You forgot the ever fun (but very rare) Pyrolisk; Save or Explode into flames. The only thing that can save you? A Wish (or similar reality bending/breaking effect).
But yes, 1e and 2e D&D were hilariously lethal. Most 12th level characters had 45-65 hp. Save or Die happens a lot. The bad saves were often offset by items that were fairly common at mid levels. The upper end undead could take 1, 2 or 1d4 levels from you. At name level, that's a lot of XP per level.
And the worst thing that could happen to you in GDQ-17? Getting a city full of magic resistant drow on your case. Not Lolth. Happened once.
- Location
- Canada
The worst things in AD&D 1e and 2e were Save and Die effects, effects so nasty that making your save and failing it amounted to the same thing. Well, those and the very definite impression from the DMG that the DM should make everything as hard as possible at every point. For just one example, level advancement: the PCs have just earned enough XP to advance a level. They now stop earning XP until they train. Arguably realistic, but training is expensive: 1500 GP per level per week after they find trainers, who must be higher level than themselves. Now add to that the direct statement that "[e]ach player character will automatically expend not less than 100 gold pieces per level of experience per month," (DMG, p. 25) which means that PCs will find the accumulation of wealth to be effectively impossible, and advancement is absolutely glacial.
Kinsfire
Verified {Redacted}
- Location
- New Jersey
As I recall, Fiend Folio (the very first one) was more of a listing of creatures and things that were pretty much designed to destroy the players. I seem to recall one variation on the lich where it was specifically states that you COULD NOT use lore skill to learn anything about it's phylactery.
Rajvik_wolfboy
Wolf amongst the stars.
- Location
- Florida
Veggie pygmies (shudders) bloody damned veggie pygmies, and me without any bloody fire