I will point out that while Fasts might be more efficient at storing Frenzy on a per unit basis, Shapeshifting is way more limited in slots than Pockets are.
NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)
- Thread starter I.F. Ister
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- Original Fantasy Action
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- norse mythology (mythology) original xianxia cultivation western cultivation ask sirihand did your mother tell you anything? discussion pleases yggdrasil farming gloating gets people killed granary management hubris is a coward's word you will die norsemen do not die when they are killed the qm has a bad memory the qm is bad at math viking courtroom drama (legal drama) vikings
If we stack as many speed increases as possible, do you think we would be able to exhaust an enemy's defensive dice all by 2-3 dice normal attacks, and then go for absurd damage to the then defenceless enemy? Or better yet, we should figure out a very slow, but perfect or nearly so attack, and just spam it.
- Location
- Bretonnia
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- He/Him
Huh. So the default build is something like, Fasts in our fylgja, High-Twitch Muscles, Dense Muscles, and either Dense Muscles/High-Twitch Muscles again, Supported Grip or one of the sensory shapeshifts, like Target-Focused Eyes?
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But also less expensive, since Orthstirr is so important for EVERYTHING in our cultivation.
I presume we can use the stealth and or sensory boost ones on the fylgja when its scouting to boost its results, and use other ones to boost it in a fight if we wanted that (or just a Fast to increase its effective Capacity)
But can we use a custom one to let it bring us more magic trinkets?
OOO idea
Can we use say one on it and one on us to merge and give Halla Wings? Or at least make the Ember wings so efficient its basically sustainable?
But can we use a custom one to let it bring us more magic trinkets?
OOO idea
Can we use say one on it and one on us to merge and give Halla Wings? Or at least make the Ember wings so efficient its basically sustainable?
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Sure, but one shapeshifting effect is not worth 180 Orthstirr (and 3 Odr a turn, maybe 4 depending on exact numbers), I don't think (at least not at our Orthstirr levels). They're good, but not that good, and that's effectively what we're giving up by using Pockets instead.
Now, in the short term we're out the Orthstirr anyway since the Pockets already exist and will be using them, but in the long term we want a Fast. We might go back to pockets in the super long term world where our Orthstirr hits 1000 or something and we can better afford the pockets than the slot (though the decreased Odr gain might mean not even then).
That seems correct, yes. Target Focused Eyes also jacks up Kindle Spinner, which is relevant.
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I am now so deeply confused about how much orthstirr is tied up in each Pocket. Last I saw it was ten, which would mean 9 Pockets (the equivalent storage of 1 slot of Fasts) is 90 orthstirr. That... seems roughly equivalent tbh, considering the stuff we can get out of shapeshifting slots.
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You're correct, but it reduces the base pool by 10, and thus also all Aspects (or technically vice versa, I guess...same effect). Which means you reduce the base pool by 90 and all Aspects by 30, for a total effective loss of 180 (90 from the pool, 30 from each Aspect). This also drops Odr gain by 3 a turn or so as I edited in above.
All Orthstirr losses and gains are basically doubled in practical terms due to this, which is worth keeping in mind (ie: when fighting the foemen we had a pool of 120, so we had a max of 240 Orthstirr to play with if we Stoked everything...this turn with a pool of 206, we have 412 to play with under the same circumstances).
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I do not know what this dark secret is, but it makes my head ache just by looking at it
Joke aside... how about speed, senses and stealth for Horra mission?
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That's what I'm thinking, yeah.
Would this have any real affect on our ability to use hugareida in combat or is taking our hand off our weapon a minor enough thing we shouldn't bother?
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It would lets us dual wield (including use unarmed attacks more easily or even simultaneously with our atgeir if we go with ambidextrous), but I think we're fine without it in terms of Hugareida use.
- Location
- Bretonnia
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- He/Him
Huh. So do y'all think it'd be a stretch to assume that Sigurd was a true Norse cultivator? Perhaps even Volsung, too? And assuming Sigurd was a true Norse cultivator, would that make Fafnir an agent of the Enemy, rather than whatever his origin was in otl? (I believe he was a dwarf that was turned into a dragon due to his greed? Might be wrong there.)
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
More importantly, it would let us use a shield as well.
Still, yeah, Shapeshifts are very good, and our Infusion means we have an extra Slot compared to someone else, that's very good.
But most importantly, our Fylgja got a Shapeshifting Slot at Infusion 3, which we can use for our Fast. That's Fucking amazing, given how efficient Fasts are at storing Frenzy compared to Pockets. It means that our Frenzy budget is dramatically higher than a normal Berserk's, because between Pockets and our Fylgja, we can store much more Frenzy than any of them can without having to compromise on Shapeshift slots for combat purposes.
Still, yeah, Shapeshifts are very good, and our Infusion means we have an extra Slot compared to someone else, that's very good.
But most importantly, our Fylgja got a Shapeshifting Slot at Infusion 3, which we can use for our Fast. That's Fucking amazing, given how efficient Fasts are at storing Frenzy compared to Pockets. It means that our Frenzy budget is dramatically higher than a normal Berserk's, because between Pockets and our Fylgja, we can store much more Frenzy than any of them can without having to compromise on Shapeshift slots for combat purposes.
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Hmmm. I've been thinking about shapeshifting and the Foemen.
Specifically, they seemed to have literally every shapeshifting thing that came up (+1 melee damage, +1 ranged damage, -1 to enemy damage, ambidexterity, speed boost...literally every possibility). Did...did the Norse learn or steal shapeshifting from the Neanderthals? Or use it to duplicate their abilities, at least?
That would track with them being associated with the Jotun, who are the most notable shapeshifters in Norse myth...
Of course, we've seen shapeshifting enhancements used on nonhuman enemies previously to reflect their prowess, but that was always in specific amounts to reflect specific capabilities...the Foemen seem to have exactly one of everything.
Probably yes to both, though it's not proven.
Using a shield saves us 4-8 Orthstirr and basically nothing else (Halting Vortex literally creates a shield, so it does nothing HV doesn't). That's not worth it.
Gods yes. Being able to put our Fast in a Fylgja means we effectively actually do have 4 slots long term...the same as someone with Hamr 9.
Specifically, they seemed to have literally every shapeshifting thing that came up (+1 melee damage, +1 ranged damage, -1 to enemy damage, ambidexterity, speed boost...literally every possibility). Did...did the Norse learn or steal shapeshifting from the Neanderthals? Or use it to duplicate their abilities, at least?
That would track with them being associated with the Jotun, who are the most notable shapeshifters in Norse myth...
Of course, we've seen shapeshifting enhancements used on nonhuman enemies previously to reflect their prowess, but that was always in specific amounts to reflect specific capabilities...the Foemen seem to have exactly one of everything.
Probably yes to both, though it's not proven.
Using a shield saves us 4-8 Orthstirr and basically nothing else (Halting Vortex literally creates a shield, so it does nothing HV doesn't). That's not worth it.
Gods yes. Being able to put our Fast in a Fylgja means we effectively actually do have 4 slots long term...the same as someone with Hamr 9.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Starting to see how Cultivation--even at Saga Establishment--has a geometric effect on the strength of a Cultivator rather than just a linear one. We just didn't qualify to see the stupider synergies since our base attributes weren't high enough.
Just having an extra Shapeshift Slot in our Fylgja means we can stack more Frenzy than anyone else without compromising on our personal strength for instance. I suspect Berserks only have 3 Frenzy as a result, because any more than that requires more Fasts than they can realistically support until they reach exceptional levels of Hamr.
Hell, it might even be that becoming a Berserk in the first place requires the use of a Shapeshifting Capacity because it's a Shapecrafter who does it. Which means you're not even eligible to try until Hamr 7, and you give up the ability to use Shapeshifts until your Hamr grows further, which gets increasingly difficult because you're already entering the 'So ridiculous that you're actually extending to unusual fields' territory. Halla just managed to avoid the worst consequences because doing it 'Naturally' meant that her Frenzy was also much weaker at the time, so she could forcefully suppress it until she had someplace to put it.
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You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like:
- Location
- Bretonnia
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They could get 2 Fasts if they really wanted to, since Hamr 4 retroactively unlocks a shapeshifting slot.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Yeah, that accounts for "Whatever Shapecrafting Bullshit that lets them attain Frenzy through sheer optimization" and "One Fast so you're not a bomb about to go off." Maximum Frenzy of 3, with the hypothetical possibility of getting another 3 every time you raise your Hamr twice. (One for the Fast, one for another Berserk stack). Except that's not really a great choice usually because Shapeshift powers are stupid and while Frenzy is also great (And I doubt we've so much as scratched the surface on its potential), it's not a patch on This Bullshit.
So yeah, I think a 'Normal' Berserk probably has Frenzy 3, a Fast to put it in, and trades off their starting Shapeshift Slots to get there. A hefty price but not a bad one given how Frenzy is effectively combat regeneration and free successes in combat.
Of course, it might be possible that Shapecrafters create Berserks using some other method that doesn't cost a Shapeshift Slot somehow. But nothing is for free in NorseQuest land, if it looks like it's free, chances are you're paying a price somewhere else. We're getting as good as we are because--in effect--we're trading time and effort for power, which is a valid trade at our current level of strength, and a reliable one because it's paid and done.
I.F. Ister
Fortifying The Thread
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I'm very happy with the reception Shapeshifting has received so far. It's something that you've been working towards for a long while now so I was worried that it wouldn't live up to the hype.
Anyways, working through the next update. I was very distracted by the new puppy throwing up so I wasn't able to focus in until now.
Anyways, working through the next update. I was very distracted by the new puppy throwing up so I wasn't able to focus in until now.
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- Bretonnia
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- He/Him
Huh. If Hamr 4 retroactively unlocks a shapeshifting slot, I wonder if Hugr 4 retroactively unlocks anything for Alloying when we hit Hugr 7.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Even if it doesn't, we've now confirmed that having Odr Infusion 3 is a milestone, and having it will bring major benefits...
...
Come to think of it @Imperial Fister , would it actually be possible to use Shapeshifts to stack the deck in our favor before raising our Hugr Infusion? If Shapeshifts are too slow to be useful in combat time at our current level, then we could just develop a set that would prevent Angry Halla from causing much damage before she can get her act back together. Right?
Normally a stupid idea, but anything to stack the deck in our favor when raising our Hugr Infusion is worthwhile. Since our 'Soft cap' just became Frenzy 3.
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Definitely.
I suspect most Berserks have Frenzy 3, but the really dedicated who make being a Berserk their lifestyle might have two fasts for a total of Frenzy 6. We'll probably do the same eventually.
I suspect what shapecrafters do to give you Frenzy doesn't take a slot. I also suspect this has bad long term effects if you try and use actual Saga Cultivation, but they probably work fine for berserks who don't intend to do that (because they lack the knowledge to try). They may also be able to give you extra slots though I suspect that will similarly hurt your long term cultivation prospects.
Frenzy 3 is actually, on the face of it, worth about 3 Shapeshifting slots. Specifically, it's worth about 85% of Offense-Tuned Reflexes (+3 vs. +3.5), 85% of Defense-Tuned Reflexes (ditto), and probably at least as good as Thickened Skin (-3 damage per turn vs. -1 damage per attack) plus +3 successes on Tactics rolls. So paying two shapeshifting slots for it is actually not a bad deal. Again, I don't think they do pay that, but it wouldn't be a terrible deal if they did. It's less modular, but it does good stuff.
Probably yes. Which would mean we had 3 Alloy 'slots' if we up Hugr Infusion to 3, more than we can probably use immediately.
Almost certainly, yes.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
3s and 9s are the Special Numbers generally.
So Attribute 4/Infusion 3, Attribute 7/Infusion 6, and Attribute 10/Infusion 9.