Frenzy is just like Offensive/Defensive-tuned Reflexes in that it adds +1 to the final result. Unlike the shapeshifting, though, it adds it to everything done in combat.
Wait - tuned reflexes is only one per roll? Not one per die?

Well. That suddenly makes that a lot less interesting.

So I guess the answer is "take the +1 damage first, and then when you get to the secodn one, try to figure out if there's anythign that's really even worth having".

I mean, it still helps out with having your bladespam punch through their defense-spam, I suppose... and once we manage to get this berserk thing figured out, and actually get that +1 damage, Halla's version of that is going to be brutal.... but it's still a bit disappointing.

Definitely higher, Hallr still didn't even qualify for The Enemy to make an appearance, it ganked him with proxies. Probably not even its best ones either.

"A pack of Steelfathers" is probably pretty close to its best. Those guys are named and numbered. The Enemy doesn't have but so many of them... and I tend to doubt that there are any cultivators out there who are both more powerful through cultivation than the Steelfathers and willing to take on the steel-taint.

Also, I get the impression that the Enemy is Horra-like - not so much a thing that has great personal power... more one that is crawling and scheming. Like, I suspect that by the time we're good enough to actually take a shot at it, we'll be able to take it down. The real challenge is going to be managing to climb up the cultivation tree without dying and bringing other people with us while we do. Once we manage to get through all of its traps... we'll already have beaten its main strength.

At the same time, I don't pretend that it's going to be easy to actually pin down. Like... Thor himself made it pretty clear that he despises the thing, and would prefer that it was dead. I didn't get the impression that it was stronger than he was... just that for some reason he wasn't really able to kill it. If it can survive his baleful gaze, then....
 
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Definitely higher, Hallr still didn't even qualify for The Enemy to make an appearance, it ganked him with proxies.

I mean, it not showing up in person might mean he was a threat to it. Or that it's incapable of doing that at all (if it's actually Nidhogg it likely can't show up in person, we'll need to go to it to kill it).

Wait - tuned reflexes is only one per roll? Not one per die?

Well. That suddenly makes that a lot less interesting.

So I guess the answer is "take the +1 damage first, and then when you get to the secodn one, try to figure out if there's anythign that's really even worth having".

I mean, it still helps out with having your bladespam punch through their defense-spam, I suppose... and once we manage to get this berserk thing figured out, and actually get that +1 damage, Halla's version of that is going to be brutal.... but it's still a bit disappointing.

You can take +1 damage again, based on what we've seen. Taking it twice is not crazy talk.

Alright, we're both wrong. They actually increase the number of dice rolled by 1.

Ah! That's only a minor improvement on big attacks, but big on blade spam...may be a lot less relevant for those with Frenzy, though.
 
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Wait - tuned reflexes is only one per roll? Not one per die?

Well. That suddenly makes that a lot less interesting.

So I guess the answer is "take the +1 damage first, and then when you get to the secodn one, try to figure out if there's anythign that's really even worth having".

I mean, it still helps out with having your bladespam punch through their defense-spam, I suppose... and once we manage to get this berserk thing figured out, and actually get that +1 damage, Halla's version of that is going to be brutal.... but it's still a bit disappointing.
+1 damage reduction is actually pretty sweet too, making them burn lots of Orthstirr to actually damage us.
 
+1 damage reduction is actually pretty sweet too, making them burn lots of Orthstirr to actually damage us.

It doesn't apply to Armor or Reinforce Shield, only our actual Endurance, which is still good, but makes it less good for Halla specifically.

Offensive and Defensive Reflexes are both great, yeah.

They're very nice in a 'puts you above mortals' kind of way, or for spamming out attacks/defenses, but I think the utility of that is largely replaced by Frenzy once you get it to, like, 3 or so, so I'm less enthralled by them if we manage that.
 
You can take +1 damage again, based on what we've seen. Taking it twice is not crazy talk.
Oh! Then let's do that. That seems like the obvious win here, really.

Straight-up triple the effect of our little hits, and add a nontrivial fraction to the effect of our big hits. Quite a lot better than the other options, by my read.

Other thought... since the murderkittens are all going to have godlike luck... does that mean that they'll be able to gain Hamingja by hanging out with each other? I mean, there was a reason that we kept heading over to hang out with Stigr, right? And supposedly, the trait makes such things even easier to get?
 
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Oh! Then let's do that. That seems like the obvious win here, really.

Straight-up triple the effect of our little hits, and add a nontrivial fraction to the effect of our big hits. Quite a lot better than the other options, by my read.

It's possible there are downsides or we need to take something else first (ie: you can only get to +2 damage after you already have multiple options at level 1), but it seems an available option based on what we've seen.

Though I will note that we basically never make 'little hits' at this point...given our orthstirr every attack should be at least a Honed Power Chop, which is 3 damage. Now upping that to 5 is no small thing, of course, I'm just saying.

The senses and stealth options are also actually quite good when examined, just not in direct combat per se. Dressed In Rags makes the stealth option a lot less appealing, but the senses option wouldn't be a terrible idea.

Other thought... since the murderkittens are all going to have godlike luck... does that mean that they'll be able to gain Hamingja by hanging out with each other? I mean, there was a reason that we kept heading over to hang out with Stigr, right? And supposedly, the trait makes such things even easier to get?

I think they need higher Hamingja than you for that...but I could be wrong, so maybe? They should go up pretty quick due to hanging out with Halla herself if nothing else (I doubt she'll ever have Hamingja less than 10 to their starting 3s, after all, plus their 'easier to raise Hamingja' thing).
 
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Is trial and error - try it and find out - the only way to get Odr knowledge? Are there other means to get True Cultivation knowledge? Hallr had to find out somehow, and he can't possibly have just lucked into everything.
 
Unrelated to the current discussion, but will we ever do anything with the Fine Silver Armband we have in our inventory for many years now? The one we won at the wrestling competition?

I mean, we could carve Runes on it to make it magical.

[X] Plan Berserker Life Advice
 
A True Cultivator can tell you?

I think it's pretty much this.

The Gods, as examples of True Cultivators (among other things), may have also been able to help...they've already helped us a little and might've been able to help Blackhand more given his closer relationship to them. Like, according to the Volsung Saga Sigurd was exactly five generations from Odin which makes him just within the boundaries of actually being related by Norse law...maybe they could tell him everything because of that and he could pass it to his son? Something like that seems possible (though it brings up the question of why Hallr didn't teach his own children if so...I can think of a few reasons, like the Enemy hunting any who know, something his father may not have known when he taught him).

This puts us 8 generations from Odin by the way, and 1/256 deity assuming no other deific bloodlines. So good for us?

Unrelated to the current discussion, but will we ever do anything with the Fine Silver Armband we have in our inventory for many years now? The one we won at the wrestling competition?

I mean, we could carve Runes on it to make it magical.

We will probably do exactly that once we come up with a good thing to carve (and have a free action). Actually, maybe that's a solution to our berserker thing if nothing else? An armband with runes to tune down the effect as long as its worn? Or make it more controllable, anyway. We could come up with a phrasing for that (especially once we better understand what it is after talking with Stigulf and Blackhand), and may need to if other avenues prove fruitless.
 
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Btw, I feel there's a connection to the divine madness of odr and the bacchanal/maenads of Greek myth. And also quite possibly to the madness that seized Heracles when he murdered his family.
 
Btw, I feel there's a connection to the divine madness of odr and the bacchanal/maenads of Greek myth. And also quite possibly to the madness that seized Heracles when he murdered his family.

Ancient Greek cultivation methods may have some strong similarities to Norse ones, yes. When we get to Constantinople we should learn to read Greek and see if we can find any literature on the subject. That method may be dead, but we can probably learn something useful from reading about it.
 
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Ancient Greek cultivation methods may have some strong similarities to Norse ones, yes. When we get to Constantinople we should learn to read Greek and see if we can find any literature on the subject. That method may be dead, but we can probably learn something useful from reading about it.

Maybe we could start studying cultivation methods of civilizations closer to us, like the Finns or the Slavic people. They should be easier to reach and study than traveling all the way to Constantinopole.

We should also start to write down our knowledge for our heirs, togheter with some of our still incomplete projects and maybe our decoded Runes. To make sure Halla legacy will not be lost.
 
Wait, sorry - is Frenzy +1 to everything in combat (as in damage, attack rolls, defend rolls, etc.) and Offensive/Defensive-Tuned Reflexes add +1 dice wherever they can?
 
If The Enemy is related to the gods it would explain why the gods, or at least our gods, can't just go and kill it. Because Nid.
 
wow, that's... that's a lot, yeah.
now, for the comment section :V
On the other hand, though, it certainly is easier to ride the waves with such little odr fueling it.
i am curious if doing it in your own home or in civilization was the big stopper.... perhaps both?
No matter how you try, you struggle to get your odr to infuse with the metal of the superior-grade sax. All that's happening is the odr tries to sink in, but is rebuked by the rigidity of cold metal.

Frowning, you wonder why that might be the case.
ah, there is no place for Odr to fill in the cooled metal, huh?
A formless mass of shifting shadows and bright lights forms out of the soil of your soul. IIt seems to almost resemble a vague outline of yourself. Instinctually, you know that this is the true form of your fylgja — the shape it bears when not reduced to an owl's body.
Frien! kinda curious how rare it is to see the true form of fylgja's... and if either the seeing eyes or seer sight sees them this way....
Crafting Sax and talking to Stigr
i think this wanted to be Sten, not Stigr
Sten squints at you with a face full of soot, his arms crossed before him. "Re-forge Sagaseeker while keeping it intact?" You nod, once again confirming the reason for your visit. He strokes his chin and jaw with thumb and forefinger as he considers the topic. "I can think of two ways, though I can only tell your one of them."
hm... the other is infusing coal/carbon to make it steel, isn't it?
(+1 Fine Molten Iron Sax equipped, but the runes added to it upgrades it to Superior)
(+2 to Born With Hammer in Hand, Born With Hammer in Hand is now Unlocked!)
Nice! and yeah, Ashen Kiss sounds good.
She smiles and holds her hands up as twin beds of flame spark into life in her palms. "Forgefire!"

You blink, not having expected that. "And how did you manage that?"

"I climbed into the furnace!"

"Oh."
...oh my gods.
This... This is what we will need to deal with, isn't it?
we REALLY need to get a fire control/extingushier trick soon, before the kittens start walking AND can climb into things.....
"It wasn't that bad." She scoffs as she rolls her eyes. "If Dad hadn't overreacted and pulled me out, I would be made of iron right now!"

She scowls, muttering something about overprotective fathers. You just stare at her as Blackhand laughs uproariously.

'Gods, it's like I'm looking in a mirror!'
yeeeeep, makes sense...
but wow, good thing Sten caught her. becoming an Iron brother that young would have messed up her standards even more.... :V
"The Frenzy of a Berserk is a dangerous thing to toy with, Halla." Your father's solemn words filter through the air as you lay with your face turned to the sun. "I don't know how you did that without a Shapecrafter, but I don't think you should do it again without one."
Guess we gotta Visit the capital, huh? at least, we can see more of the Norse culture... and get more ideas for our descendants.
Also, we can ask said shapecrafter about this stuff.
Still, would it have been worse if we had our Hamr filled out?
Steinarr steps forward and his face blots out the sun.
-Stab, Dead. Slice, Dead. Chop, Dead. Bash, Dead-
The moment he enters your line of sight, your mind instantly starts working to figure out ways to kill him. Nothing works, but that doesn't stop your instincts.

It's like this whenever you look at anyone now. Friend or foe, it matters not to your new combat instincts — all are potential threats that you must be ready for at a moment's notice.
combat predictions, huh? too bad it doesnt have an off switch...
(You are now, by definition, a Berserk)
(You have unlocked Frenzy)
hm.... interesting.... i guess its not offical because we didn't go it about the offical way?
By the way, Shapecrafting is Shapeshifting, right...? I wonder if our Berserk is any different from Berserk achieved through Shapecrafting.
I don't think so? shapeshifting is something you do to your own body.
Shapecrafting is when you do other's bodies. and yeah, it was said by IF that its "Manly Mans with BIG MUSCLES"... so its probably as was said, Seidr that is too good toto not let man do it, so it "isn't Seidr".
Anyway, just checking, but we don't have to worry about Halla fucking everyone up anymore now that she's entered Frenzy the first time, right @ Imperial Fister? It's mostly just the shock of the first activation going on here? Also, does Frenzy have a steady regeneration thing rather than being like Focus where it fully replenishes as long as the one using it has a moment to center themselves?
Ooof, okay, yeah, that's going to take some getting used to. Is that going to happen every time we Infuse Hugr? Or was it just the first time with unlocking Frenzy?
i mean, Steinar did told us to go get a check up and don't repeat what we did without a shapecrafter.
...oh.
Shapecrafter can work on and give others frenzy safely because they both knock out the person in question and effectively cripple/dismember them for the duration of the operation, huh?
You're not alone. It's been a near-constant string of good luck and unknowingly good choices. You guys are standing at the edge of so many landmines it's ridiculous.
....So, how is our progress to unlock Godly Luck by the hard way? :V
also, if we are at traits...
could there be a separate list of traits for the bonus traits that don't count against the limit, like charred soul? And i forgot but Bloody basics also counts like that, right?
I'd be entirely unsurprised if we get whatever it is we're working on with the Bible Study at 9 total study events, and it turns out to be some Boon that makes interacting with Christians easier. We understand one of their big foundational Sagas, so we can better understand and get along with them, or taunt them if that's what we're doing.
or we will convert when the bible study ran its course.
...
IF, please, tell me its not going to be that.
One thing I'll tell you is that you're not quite right.

Well, at least in the way I believe you're using that word.
would a higher composure help? some of its tricks perhaps?
...also, what happens when we add Ord to composure? :V
It's about directing that mania, rather than trying to make it weaker, right?

For Halla, it's manifesting as her having a plan to kill everything she meets because it's interacting with her Bloodthirst and supercharging it. What we want to do is direct that Frenzy towards something more constructive instead, right?

Being a Norse Cultivator will always make you a little crazy if you're taking it to the limit, but there's ways of being crazy that don't involve just being a bloodthirsty lunatic.
Norse being shitposters showing again :V
joke aside, guess it shows what you are, even more than the chinese "perfection/mastery of the self" huh?
From what I understand, Hallr gave Charred Soul to everyone named Halla/Hallr. Because his memory is fragmented between all of them. I can't imagine him running the risk of losing from just being unlucky once.
No, Charred soul is a special trait. and isnt name related, IF at least, told us that.
Born of fire is our bloodline trait. from Volund.
Charred soul... its what Hallr got from the mountain god's forge. when he got the blackhand kenning, i think or shortly after.
He paid with his memories for it, among other things.
...But then, IF DID said a novel had good world building...
I've always thought that the 39-clues novels had interesting world-building in the form of different branches of the same family pulling shenanigans and scheming against each other.
but, hopefully, charred sould is not THAT fragmented that we need to fight over it with kin. Right?
He separated because of that, but as far as we know only this fragment 'woke up' and is providing more than minor benefits. Others might have in theory, but we don't know that one way or the other. We might want to meet our cousins and find out at some point.
Yeah, this.
Lets just hope the others only got the Orthstirr from him.
 
Maybe we could start studying cultivation methods of civilizations closer to us, like the Finns or the Slavic people. They should be easier to reach and study than traveling all the way to Constantinopole.

Sure, I was saying since we were planning on going there and joining the Varangian Guard anyway we might as well check out things while we were there, it wasn't intended as an exhaustive list of cultivation systems to check. And in terms of nearby people, the Sami are closest, though the other two are indeed also close.

We should also start to write down our knowledge for our heirs, togheter with some of our still incomplete projects and maybe our decoded Runes. To make sure Halla legacy will not be lost.

I'm pretty sure this results in a Steelfather showing up to kill us or similar fuckery (okay, maybe that's hyperbole, but it'd be bad). The Enemy is watching and we need to be careful not to provoke them until we're ready and do it strategically even then...if it was this easy Hallr wouldn't have needed to burn his soul into reality to do it. Speaking of which, we get full knowledge passed down to our single heir due to Charred Soul which also makes this less necessary.

Yeah, this.
Lets just hope the others only got the Orthstirr from him.

Eh. As long as the other versions maintained the same goal, I think they're much more likely to be allies than enemies. Honestly, Hallr is probably a better person than Halla in some ways, if only due to being more worldly (he's firmly anti-slavery, for example, because he's thought about it, while Halla hadn't even examined her attitude on the subject until he pointed it out).
 
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I've been thinking lately.

Isn't it a little weird how Norse cultivation seems to be geared toward making Orthstirr "obsolete"?

Think about it for a second, an old and talented Norse cultivator, the kind that have thousands points of Orthstirr would have no need for that pool because all of their attributes and skills would be infused and as such wont cost Orthstirr to raise and they would have probably perfected (or mastered I don't remember which rank is the one that make the trick free).

At that point, while they could spend Orthstirr on extra effects or just endlessly honing that doesn't seem like a really good use.

I suppose that twists would be what they spend their Orthstirr on but we still don't know what infusing Odr into twists do's and it could very much reduce that cost of them.

But the point stands after a certain point Orthstirr becomes "obsolete" and that doesn't make sense.

I mean why go through all the effort of reducing the amount of Orthstirr you spend instead of investing that time and energy to getting stronger?

I mean it's not like when you reach that point, you'll be lacking in Orthstirr you'll probably have thousands if not ten of thousand points of Orthstirr in your pool not to mention the extra you could get from your aspects.

There is no logic in investing so much into something, having that thing in abundance and then making it obsolete.

The obvious answer here that instead of becoming obsolete at a certain point the role Orthstirr play in Norse cultivation changes.

And the reason that so much effort is invested in reducing the amount of it you spend is so you could then spend it on something more valuable without worrying about it (perhaps even permanently spending it).

The question Is what would you spend it on?

I would wager and say that you spend it permanently to get a third source of energy (the Norse love the number 3 after all).

Now Orthstirr is the energy of the community but it could also be defined as an energy of order, order of the community but order non the less while Odr is the energy of madness and chaos.

They are opposed in a way but we can use them together so that point to some kind of compatibility.

And my finale question is such have we ever tried to combine bot of them?

and not in the sense of using them together but taking a drop of Odr and infusing it into a drop of Orthstirr.

Or in much the same have we triad to infuse our aspects with Odr.

Because I would wager good money that this is the way we unlock some sort of third energy that is a combination of order and chaos.
 
I don't think orthstirr ever becomes obsolete per se, though it can become less important, simply because you're never gonna Perfect everything and as long as some things are not perfected they cost orthstirr, to say nothing of Twists, or Seidr spells (which may well not work much like Tricks beyond having an orthstirr cost). I highly doubt most cultivators actually max out all their stats and skills with Odr either...the cost escalates for that while it's flat for Odr....is the eighth point really worth 128 Odr when you could get almost as good for 1 Orthstirr every so often?

A third energy source is possible, but seems like it's probably pretty high end if so, and not something we want to experiment with in the immediate future.
 
would a higher composure help? some of its tricks perhaps?
...also, what happens when we add Ord to composure? :V

Y'know, I just caught this, and I hadn't thought of it, but it might be worth trying. I'm not adding it to the plan (unless by popular demand people want to invest an Odr, we could do that), I don't think, but like the Runed Arm-Ring of Being Chill, it's going in the idea box if this turn doesn't provide an alternative solution (or if that solution is not enough). We'd try Odr first and then maybe a Trick...just upping Composure seems unlikely to work since our Composure is already solid.
 
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