Something about the Norse's situation reminds me of the drow from Practical Guide to Evil. Like, an entire culture that burns out that fast and whose cultivation is tied to conflict. It feels like something deliberately engineered, for a purpose.
NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)
- Thread starter I.F. Ister
- Start date
- Original Fantasy Action
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- norse mythology (mythology) original xianxia cultivation western cultivation ask sirihand did your mother tell you anything? discussion pleases yggdrasil farming gloating gets people killed granary management hubris is a coward's word you will die norsemen do not die when they are killed the qm has a bad memory the qm is bad at math viking courtroom drama (legal drama) vikings
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- He/Him
I mean, we know at least some of the Norse live longer than that in this world...the former King lived quite a long time, didn't he?
God gives his toughest battles to his strongest soldiers?
I.F. Ister
Fortifying The Thread
- Pronouns
- He/They
He was ~60-ish when he died. He was just named Konungr, which is 'king' in Old Norse. Since people quickly tired of 'King King', they just called him King, which made it a bit weird to call the new king 'King' when the old king was literally named King.
Is it weird that I am now thinking about the Bene Gesserit and wondering what ways the system could be twisted. Hmm. The biggest obstacle in our way would probably be Nid and the fact that diverging too much from the cultural baseline would likely distort the cultivation system.
Also how does adoption interact with Orthstirr inheritance?
Also how does adoption interact with Orthstirr inheritance?
I.F. Ister
Fortifying The Thread
- Pronouns
- He/They
Adoption was common and works for inheritance
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Huh. Okay. So here we see the weakness of the Norse system.
- We've got basically no synergies. We've got little in the way of specialization. Each warrior individually is a badass, and becomes moreso as they age, but the Christians can bring certain structural advantages to bear that we can't really match. Like, Halla is a prime example of that. She's probably one of the most promising warriors or her generation, and when she gets done here, she's going to go back home and farm, while also building structures for said farm, and smithing up the tools for said farm. Eventually, it's likely that she'll also craft some of her own combat gear.
- We've got very little in the way of organization. Like... Folkmarr has The Special Jarl Magic, that's only available to him because of his bloodline... and it lets him gather something like twelve of us. Now, that twelve is a fearsome band, but it's a fearsome band. In the meantime, the sagas are full of powerful, well-respected norse warriors... who spent most of their time murdering other powerful, well-respected norse warriors.
- We've got very little generation-on-generation gains. You get some bloodline stuff, and that's cool, but it's "nice to have" more than anything else. You get opportunities for training, which are nice. You might get some orthstirr-by-association and maybe a bit of extra gear... but it's still not a lot... and unless the next generation is themselves kind of badass, you don't get a lot coming down to the next one. Like... Hallr had Seider, and presumably could have initiated his children... but Steinarr apparently didn't go for it, and so Halla needs to arrange to get it for herself.
- Vikings die. They all die, they die pretty inevitably. The ones that are really impressive are the ones who are constantly throwing themselves into life-or-death battles. The old crazy bastard vikings are really scary, but they have to be young crazy bastard vikings first... and they don't run away from fights. Right now, the Vikings are winning, but what "winning" looks like for them doesn't prevent the Christians from advancing and improving themselves - it's little obnoxious nips around the edges. If the pendulum ever swings the other way, to where the English are winning, then the whole viking structure suddenly craters, because the "young vikings" will all die off before they can become "old vikings". By comparison, Christian cultivation is the sort of thing you can get with meditation and prayer and living a very particular life and lots and lots of training.
- Vikings (from what I'm seeing) have very little loyalty to their culture. They make no efforts to convert anyone. If a priest shows up and starts converting the neighbors... who cares? So now they have Christian neighbors instead of Viking neighbors. Well, okay.
/*****************/
So... if we want to have Norse Cultivation (or, rather, a derivative of same) continue to be a thing in our country, we basically need to counter the following issues.
- We need to convince the Norse themselves to care enough to push back against missionaries, and possibly go out and convert a few themselves. Priests who show up trying to convert need to be seen as hostile forces, and murdered accordingly.
- We need a way for Norse cultivation to progress. We need to have meaningful generation-on-generation advancement, because even if we don't, they will, and eventually they'll pass us.
- We probably need a degree of specialization, organization, and synergy between different specialties. That sort of thing is generally very strong in situations where you can accumulate advancement over time, and I suspect we're going to need it.
- Eventually, we're going to need to come up with some sort of answer for crusade-equivalents. Christendom is quite a lot larger than the vikign lands are, with enormously more people. They aren't anything like unified, but they are able to work together in much (much) larger groups than we are. Once they're done chewing through the Lithuanians, that attention is going to turn to us.
- We've got basically no synergies. We've got little in the way of specialization. Each warrior individually is a badass, and becomes moreso as they age, but the Christians can bring certain structural advantages to bear that we can't really match. Like, Halla is a prime example of that. She's probably one of the most promising warriors or her generation, and when she gets done here, she's going to go back home and farm, while also building structures for said farm, and smithing up the tools for said farm. Eventually, it's likely that she'll also craft some of her own combat gear.
- We've got very little in the way of organization. Like... Folkmarr has The Special Jarl Magic, that's only available to him because of his bloodline... and it lets him gather something like twelve of us. Now, that twelve is a fearsome band, but it's a fearsome band. In the meantime, the sagas are full of powerful, well-respected norse warriors... who spent most of their time murdering other powerful, well-respected norse warriors.
- We've got very little generation-on-generation gains. You get some bloodline stuff, and that's cool, but it's "nice to have" more than anything else. You get opportunities for training, which are nice. You might get some orthstirr-by-association and maybe a bit of extra gear... but it's still not a lot... and unless the next generation is themselves kind of badass, you don't get a lot coming down to the next one. Like... Hallr had Seider, and presumably could have initiated his children... but Steinarr apparently didn't go for it, and so Halla needs to arrange to get it for herself.
- Vikings die. They all die, they die pretty inevitably. The ones that are really impressive are the ones who are constantly throwing themselves into life-or-death battles. The old crazy bastard vikings are really scary, but they have to be young crazy bastard vikings first... and they don't run away from fights. Right now, the Vikings are winning, but what "winning" looks like for them doesn't prevent the Christians from advancing and improving themselves - it's little obnoxious nips around the edges. If the pendulum ever swings the other way, to where the English are winning, then the whole viking structure suddenly craters, because the "young vikings" will all die off before they can become "old vikings". By comparison, Christian cultivation is the sort of thing you can get with meditation and prayer and living a very particular life and lots and lots of training.
- Vikings (from what I'm seeing) have very little loyalty to their culture. They make no efforts to convert anyone. If a priest shows up and starts converting the neighbors... who cares? So now they have Christian neighbors instead of Viking neighbors. Well, okay.
/*****************/
So... if we want to have Norse Cultivation (or, rather, a derivative of same) continue to be a thing in our country, we basically need to counter the following issues.
- We need to convince the Norse themselves to care enough to push back against missionaries, and possibly go out and convert a few themselves. Priests who show up trying to convert need to be seen as hostile forces, and murdered accordingly.
- We need a way for Norse cultivation to progress. We need to have meaningful generation-on-generation advancement, because even if we don't, they will, and eventually they'll pass us.
- We probably need a degree of specialization, organization, and synergy between different specialties. That sort of thing is generally very strong in situations where you can accumulate advancement over time, and I suspect we're going to need it.
- Eventually, we're going to need to come up with some sort of answer for crusade-equivalents. Christendom is quite a lot larger than the vikign lands are, with enormously more people. They aren't anything like unified, but they are able to work together in much (much) larger groups than we are. Once they're done chewing through the Lithuanians, that attention is going to turn to us.
Ryumancer
Dragons Are Romance
Funnily enough, Halla is more likely to get scammed into buying something she doesn't need/benefit from than Abjorn is, considering Abjorn's "content". Of course, since we're here, the chances of getting scammed aren't very high anyways, but...
I.F. Ister
Fortifying The Thread
- Pronouns
- He/They
This is a very good analysis, have a reward dice
There are one or two minor bits, but overall very good job
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[X] Plan I Want it ALL
-[x] Muna: Fighting Father Gerrit (Provides Twist: Punching Up)
-[X] (Population) Thralldom
--[X] (Optional) Only take those of use while letting the rest go
-[x] (Buildings) Pillage for everything of value
--[X] (Optional) Then Raze it to the ground (Potential for extra loot but Raises Heat)
-[X] (Loot) The Mayor's House
-[x] Muna: Fighting Father Gerrit (Provides Twist: Punching Up)
-[X] (Population) Thralldom
--[X] (Optional) Only take those of use while letting the rest go
-[x] (Buildings) Pillage for everything of value
--[X] (Optional) Then Raze it to the ground (Potential for extra loot but Raises Heat)
-[X] (Loot) The Mayor's House
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan: Let's Rob A Church
So what's the chances of seeing what Jewish cultivation looks like? I'm imagining golem summoning.
So what's the chances of seeing what Jewish cultivation looks like? I'm imagining golem summoning.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
I agree with basically all of these, but aside from the progress thing (and partially even that), I'd like to note that these aren't really problems with Norse Cultivation but with Norse Culture. The two are interrelated, but not quite the same thing and the distinction seems worth noting to me. Norse Cultivation as such mostly only has two issues (lack of progress and the 'they all die' thing), the rest are very real but issues with the cultural context surrounding the lives of Norsemen rather than their cultivation method itself.
Like, nothing about her Cultivation is preventing Halla from specializing, that's all stuff about the context of her life.
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[X] Plan: Let's Rob A Church
That was a neat two parter.
[X] Plan: Put our Faith in the Nornir and they will provide
But yeah, it's probably to sate Odin's thirst for knowledge....
The Norse are just strong enough to snatch all the interesting things (Looking at you, Blackhand) but are shackled enough to don't be a threat witwithout easy solution.
It's also good at making sure the Norse stays divided, no concentrated efforts survive long after the planner dies.
Hehehe
GREAT TEACHER HALLA WILL REVOLUTIONARIZES THE NORTH!!!!!
We should do it, even if we need to drag every last gods damned vikingnr and their family screaming and kicking into the school!
We could even pitch it to a Jarl, easily.
"Give me some year and some kids, andtthey will be meanace to our enemies!"
[X] Plan: Put our Faith in the Nornir and they will provide
Ah, a fellow man of culture!
But yeah, it's probably to sate Odin's thirst for knowledge....
The Norse are just strong enough to snatch all the interesting things (Looking at you, Blackhand) but are shackled enough to don't be a threat witwithout easy solution.
It's also good at making sure the Norse stays divided, no concentrated efforts survive long after the planner dies.
...
Hehehe
GREAT TEACHER HALLA WILL REVOLUTIONARIZES THE NORTH!!!!!
We should do it, even if we need to drag every last gods damned vikingnr and their family screaming and kicking into the school!
We could even pitch it to a Jarl, easily.
"Give me some year and some kids, andtthey will be meanace to our enemies!"
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It's possible this is just Odin's plan for Ragnarok, actually. We don't know if Valkyries, Valhalla or einherjar are a thing in this setting, but if so, a system that burns bright and fast and prevents it's users from dying in bed could provide a lot of soldiers.
Hm, thinking about it, the Norse definitely need to develop schools for learning. It helps ensure that knowledge is less likely to get lost or forgotten, while also giving a place to stack training bonuses. That of course requires a cultural shift, since cultivation schools aren't exactly cheap to run.
Oh god, thinking about this, isn't education considered pretty important for all in the Indian and Asian regions at this time? Cultivation schools everywhere wew
Oh god, thinking about this, isn't education considered pretty important for all in the Indian and Asian regions at this time? Cultivation schools everywhere wew
Sirrocco
Pedantic
So... another way to look at it: I see these direct threats to the Norse Way Of Life:
- Missionaries. Folks will come up and try to convert us, and if they get far enough, that'll disrupt the orthstirr exchange system.
--- Solution: As previously noted, we need to change the culture so that we resent attempts to convert us and see them as threats. Otherwise the missionaries will come, and we'll eventually wind up as a bunch of Christian cultivators.
- Power curve: the Christians are growing, we're standing still. If we dont' fix that, we eventually become obslete.
--- Solution: Stop standign still
- Power curve mk 2: Both the viking resource economy and the viking orthstirr economy are based on raiding... and viking raiding bands generally want to be in sizes like "a dozen". Meanwhile, world populationkeeps increasing. Eventually, "thriving trading town" is going to be the kind of place that you can't reasonably raid with a dozen twentysomethings because there's just too many people there. Prior to that happening, we need to find a different way for young vikings to go out into the world and turn a propensity for violence into resources and fame.
--- Solution: Varangian guard? I think it pretty much has to be some sort of merc work, really... though we also need a way to make sure that we don't lose too many people to, say, being betrayed by our employers.
- Crusades: Eventually the eye ofSauron the Pope will turn to us, especially if we've been murdering missionaries. If we do nothing, that means that we're goign to war with a significant fraction of Christendom. That's bad. We don't have that kind of numbers.
--- Solution: We're going to need to have a decent chunk of Christians who think that we're actually kind of okay with our weird foreigner ways and who would really prefer that we not be converted by force. That or we need to seriously work on making common cause with the Muslims and the Lithuanians and basically everyone else who the Christians are inclined to be at odds with as a group. Again, I'm thnking this means merc work.
Technically I think there's a path to handling the "eye of Sauron" issue that involves sacking Vatican City at just the right time and wiping out the Council of Cardinals. If there's no cardinals, and there's no pope, then you do a lot of damage to the legitimacy of the Catholic Church as an institution. At the same time... I'm pretty sure that taking out the nornir would be easier. It might even be a necessary preparatory step.
Ahhh... and I think that that might actually be part of what drives Viking cultivation. Like, in the viking way of seeing, orthstirr is something that happens when people think that you're awesome. Also, badass vikings keep wandering the world, doing badass things, making the viking culture in general a sort of memetic chad. So... as far as viking cultivation is concerned, those wandering murderhobo vikings function kind of like qi gathering arrays writ large, pulling qi out of the countries that they battle their way through and drawing it up into the viking culturespace, where it mostly sticks around and gets passed back and forth.
Similarly, it's pretty clear that our home territories have a lot more monsters than most. Like, "nests of trolls beneath the earth" are the kind of thing that would be wiping the English off the map. I suspect that they get juiced up by the same stuff that's juicing up the vikings.
- Missionaries. Folks will come up and try to convert us, and if they get far enough, that'll disrupt the orthstirr exchange system.
--- Solution: As previously noted, we need to change the culture so that we resent attempts to convert us and see them as threats. Otherwise the missionaries will come, and we'll eventually wind up as a bunch of Christian cultivators.
- Power curve: the Christians are growing, we're standing still. If we dont' fix that, we eventually become obslete.
--- Solution: Stop standign still
- Power curve mk 2: Both the viking resource economy and the viking orthstirr economy are based on raiding... and viking raiding bands generally want to be in sizes like "a dozen". Meanwhile, world populationkeeps increasing. Eventually, "thriving trading town" is going to be the kind of place that you can't reasonably raid with a dozen twentysomethings because there's just too many people there. Prior to that happening, we need to find a different way for young vikings to go out into the world and turn a propensity for violence into resources and fame.
--- Solution: Varangian guard? I think it pretty much has to be some sort of merc work, really... though we also need a way to make sure that we don't lose too many people to, say, being betrayed by our employers.
- Crusades: Eventually the eye of
--- Solution: We're going to need to have a decent chunk of Christians who think that we're actually kind of okay with our weird foreigner ways and who would really prefer that we not be converted by force. That or we need to seriously work on making common cause with the Muslims and the Lithuanians and basically everyone else who the Christians are inclined to be at odds with as a group. Again, I'm thnking this means merc work.
Technically I think there's a path to handling the "eye of Sauron" issue that involves sacking Vatican City at just the right time and wiping out the Council of Cardinals. If there's no cardinals, and there's no pope, then you do a lot of damage to the legitimacy of the Catholic Church as an institution. At the same time... I'm pretty sure that taking out the nornir would be easier. It might even be a necessary preparatory step.
Ahhh... and I think that that might actually be part of what drives Viking cultivation. Like, in the viking way of seeing, orthstirr is something that happens when people think that you're awesome. Also, badass vikings keep wandering the world, doing badass things, making the viking culture in general a sort of memetic chad. So... as far as viking cultivation is concerned, those wandering murderhobo vikings function kind of like qi gathering arrays writ large, pulling qi out of the countries that they battle their way through and drawing it up into the viking culturespace, where it mostly sticks around and gets passed back and forth.
Similarly, it's pretty clear that our home territories have a lot more monsters than most. Like, "nests of trolls beneath the earth" are the kind of thing that would be wiping the English off the map. I suspect that they get juiced up by the same stuff that's juicing up the vikings.
- Location
- Bretonnia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm late pretty late, but I'd like to say that that fight was awesome. It was extremely satisfying to see everything went as planned.
Anyway, I'll go with putting our faith in the Nornir for our loot option, as we've got really high Hamingja. I don't see why Hamingja wouldn't proc, seeing as it is the representation of 'luck'.
[X] Plan: Put our Faith in the Nornir and they will provide
I agree with pretty much everything you said, however I imagine that King-led Raids and Power Raids can do more than just 'obnoxious nips'. However, due to how thoroughly lacking the Norse system is in terms of synergy, I doubt these country-wide raids are as impressive as a Christian Crusade. It doesn't help that the Christians have a much higher population than us, too.
Anyway, I'll go with putting our faith in the Nornir for our loot option, as we've got really high Hamingja. I don't see why Hamingja wouldn't proc, seeing as it is the representation of 'luck'.
[X] Plan: Put our Faith in the Nornir and they will provide
I agree with pretty much everything you said, however I imagine that King-led Raids and Power Raids can do more than just 'obnoxious nips'. However, due to how thoroughly lacking the Norse system is in terms of synergy, I doubt these country-wide raids are as impressive as a Christian Crusade. It doesn't help that the Christians have a much higher population than us, too.
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- Location
- New Zealand
I'm curious. Given Halla's tendancy to use Leaping Cleave (and more recently Ember-winged Cloak), what do you think the chance Halla get a kenning of "Valkyrie"?
Or would the cultural context of the Valkyrie mean that no-one would earn that Kenning for combat?
Or would the cultural context of the Valkyrie mean that no-one would earn that Kenning for combat?
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Kingly raids are effectively conquest attempts. They're an entirely different thing. They exist as a way of taking territory, rather than anything else... and in some ways they're not all that meaningful as far as the problems we're currently facing. I mean, having more chunks of the world covered in vikings does help a bit with the Eye of Sauron issue, but other than that?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I will say that, going by real history anyway (which this history mirrors, after all), Kingly Raids are very effective at taking territory and even decent at holding it barring infighting.
I think the advantages of synergy are being overstated here. Or, at least, the advantages of having a whole army all of whom are capable warrior cultivators is being underestimated. Vikings can and did conquer whole swaths of Christian territory when they felt like it and could get enough of them pointed in one direction. Like, the Danelaw currently includes like a third of England, and the Danes there very much conquered it from the Christians. That's almost certain to still be true here and any logic that says it wouldn't happen is thus flawed somewhere.
Doesn't change the problems in the long term, I don't think, except maybe the worry about a Crusade...but I think we'd do significantly better against one of those than is being assumed. Not enough better that it isn't a worry, mind you, but better.
I think the advantages of synergy are being overstated here. Or, at least, the advantages of having a whole army all of whom are capable warrior cultivators is being underestimated. Vikings can and did conquer whole swaths of Christian territory when they felt like it and could get enough of them pointed in one direction. Like, the Danelaw currently includes like a third of England, and the Danes there very much conquered it from the Christians. That's almost certain to still be true here and any logic that says it wouldn't happen is thus flawed somewhere.
Doesn't change the problems in the long term, I don't think, except maybe the worry about a Crusade...but I think we'd do significantly better against one of those than is being assumed. Not enough better that it isn't a worry, mind you, but better.
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- Location
- Bretonnia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Nah, Imperial also explicitly mentioned that Power Raids are on the same scale as King-led Raids, except they exist solely to make someone's - or rather, an entire country's - day miserable.
I'm pretty sure the Vikings do this already. The Jomsvikings are one such group of mercenaries who are said to be legendary. They're also purported to have worked for anyone as long as they were paid - even Christians. However, you're right in the sense that we need some version of the Jomsvikings for younger Vikings, as I imagine the Jomsvikings only take the really promising young 'uns, leaving the other ones to rot.
Wait, what do you mean by this?
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
More, ability to specialize. Imagine if Halla didn't have to spend her time mastering Crafting or Farming or do sidequests to unlock Seidr. But even a forge type person needs to get glory somehow to have Orthsirr. Unless we can share Orthsirr in-family or something.. a bit like 'Glory and Honor of the family' kind of deal.
- Location
- Bretonnia
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'd also like to mention that the Joms were also said to be very devout worshippers of the Norse gods, sort of like a psuedo religious order? It's vague, but we might be able to develop that further, and if we do create some sort of 'Jomsvikings, but for young people' we could establish some actual loyalty to Norse religion. Admittedly, my knowledge is coming from Wikipedia and a few searches here and there, so I might be wrong.
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