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NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

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Shard said:
More, ability to specialize. Imagine if Halla didn't have to spend her time mastering Crafting or Farming or do sidequests to unlock Seidr. But even a forge type person needs to get glory somehow to have Orthsirr.
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You can get orthstirr for non-combat stuff, probably including great works of craft if they get people talking, it's just a lot harder and more time consuming.

Shard said:
Unless we can share Orthsirr in-family or something.. a bit like 'Glory and Honor of the family' kind of deal.
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We technically can. We got +3 orthstirr from Steinarr's last raid just from being related to him, for example...but it's a trickle compared to a torrent for actually achieving something ourselves.

The issue isn't that personal combat is the only way to get orthstirr, it's that it's notably quicker and easier than most of the alternatives.
 
I wonder if reflected glory can be used by Artisans actually? If we always make sure to credit people who make our stuff, we effectively give the person making them Orthsirr. The other way should also work. An agreement to sing the glory of the forge that made the weapons/armor you wield.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
The issue isn't that personal combat is the only way to get orthstirr, it's that it's notably quicker and easier than most of the alternatives.
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Yeah, although this seems like more of a cultural issue than a cultivation issue, like you said before. I'm not sure how we'd go about changing that, though. I'll just leave it up to people smarter than myself.
 
We're like 200 (or 2000) years too early for a Crusade to happen, fwiw. Sure, alt history is a thing, but the Crusades were very much about Islam and Jerusalem. Vikings, while scary, don't have the same cultural heft.

Conversion is a tricky issue too. There were political and economic aspects to conversion (advantages to trading with and allying with other Christian nations) and Norway converted from the top down as much as edges-in.
 
Wait a second, what happened to the guy that was hiding in the gatehouse? Well, I suppose it doesn't matter since we massacred all the town's defenders, so he can't have been all that strong. Or he ran away.

Also, I think the Bible might serve ad some sort of 'spell-book' for priests. Mainly because Father Gerrit opened the box when he started using his fireballs. Of course, this theory would only hold weight if the wooden box Father Gerrit had actually had a Bible inside.
 
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Shard said:
I wonder if reflected glory can be used by Artisans actually? If we always make sure to credit people who make our stuff, we effectively give the person making them Orthsirr. The other way should also work. An agreement to sing the glory of the forge that made the weapons/armor you wield.
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Probably? If we talk them up, anyway. Sadly, we don't really have anyone to talk up other than Sten, at the moment, and I don't think he wants his name associated with Abjorn's sword, which is the only notable work of his we have.

Constenanto said:
Yeah, although this seems like more of a cultural issue than a cultivation issue, like you said before. I'm not sure how we'd go about changing that, though. I'll just leave it up to people smarter than myself.
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Definitely. I'm not sure it's an avoidable one as long as the Nornir's 'you die when you die' is in effect, though...dying not being an actual risk of combat really skyrockets the incentives to engage in it. I think maybe transitioning more to mercenary work, as suggested, might be a more workable solution, at least in the short run.
 
Its hilarious that because we have to think about our childrens future (which you dont need to in most other cultivation quests), we immediately start looking at preventing the biggest threat to the system we inhabit that we can possibly see.

Is it not more reasonable and relevant to try and think of ideas that we get us enough political or societal power to be able to institute large scale reforms? Like, i dunnuh ,becoming a Jarl or a Chief or something like that?

Never change SV, never change.
 
Drieder said:
Its hilarious that because we have to think about our childrens future (which you dont need to in most other cultivation quests), we immediately start looking at preventing the biggest threat to the system we inhabit that we can possibly see.

Is it not more reasonable and relevant to try and think of ideas that we get us enough political or societal power to be able to institute large scale reforms? Like, i dunnuh ,becoming a Jarl or a Chief or something like that?

Never change SV, never change.
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I mean, we're already working on acquiring more societal power. Like, going on raids with our Jarl's heir may be the single most upwardly mobile thing we could be doing right now and we're on one as we speak. We'd also certainly like to become a Jarl ourselves, of course, but we don't actually know how and have no real leads to pursue to gain that information, which sort of puts a crimp in those plans.

And since we're already doing all that seems feasible in that regard, we're left to speculate on how to fix the society as a whole.
 
Constenanto said:
Wait, what do you mean by this?
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Basically, I'm pretty sure that the Christians have ways to accumulate power from generation to generation. They unlock new resources, refine smithing skills, and so forth. They have those monasteries being repositories of knowledge, and so on, and so on.

From what i can see from here, the Vikings are very powerful right now, but they're basically standing still. If the Vikings keep standing still, while the Christians keep advancing, eventually the Christians are going to win.
 
Sirrocco said:
Basically, I'm pretty sure that the Christians have ways to accumulate power from generation to generation. They unlock new resources, refine smithing skills, and so forth. They have those monasteries being repositories of knowledge, and so on, and so on.

From what i can see from here, the Vikings are very powerful right now, but they're basically standing still. If the Vikings keep standing still, while the Christians keep advancing, eventually the Christians are going to win.
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Eh, I don't really agree with this. I'd say that viking cultivation inherently promotes the next generation becoming stronger than the last, since the more impressive your parents are, the more expectations there are for you to meet them. Not to mention that everyone is competing with one another for glory and fame, which means that people will try and achieve more and more to compensate.

The problem is that the older generation doesn't really do anything to actually help, which makes it much harder for people to actually grow as you're expected to do all of this alone in a very 'sink or swim' fashion. Like, if we were to mercenary orders that also happened to train unexperienced people, and make depositories for knowledge and whatnot, we would keep up with the Christians. Especially since they're whole thing is about pacifying the world and making it a safer place to live in, which would mean that getting actual experience gets harder and harder as they expand.
 
Well I think part of what made Christianity is the fact that they had the bible, a central text that was relatively standard throughout the land. The Norse religion was through priests and apprenticeship relying on word of mouth and varying beliefs.

Not saying we have to follow their idea, but Shintoism is still pretty widespread I'm Japan, so maybe grab some ideas from them?

As for the older generation not helping and the overall strength of Norse cultivation stagnating, I have a couple ideas

Valhalla. Die in battle and spend the rest of your afterlife partying and fighting in preparation for Ragnarok. What if we look for a way to summon these Vikings, at least temporarily? A fight is a fight right?

The Wild Hunt. A supernatural group of hunters that chase after their game, dooming anyone who sees them. Supposedly led by Odin sometimes. Would there be a way to mimic this and hit harder if we go South?
 
How to reform:
Raise the esteem society has for crafters and seers.
Making sure those paths are seen as viable paths.

Make the older generations pass on their knowledge, to groups of learners with relevant interests.

Make sure the top down conversion doesn't happen.

If Christianity ever goes full crusade against Jerusalem/some other place: Abuse the chances they give by having all their troops locked in battles far away.
 
Sivantic said:
The Wild Hunt. A supernatural group of hunters that chase after their game, dooming anyone who sees them. Supposedly led by Odin sometimes. Would there be a way to mimic this and hit harder if we go South?
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Funny thing about that.

AFAIK, the association of Odin with the Wild Hunt is mostly a later addition/link made up in the 19th century in connection with the Springtime of Nations and backlash to imperialism, when a lot of nations were "recovering" (frequently:inventing and rewriting) their own native myths and cultures and traditions.

The old Norwegian equivalent of the Wild Hunt is Oskoreia, original etymology and meaning unclear, three candidates are "the awful ride" or "the drunken ride" or "the thunderous ride". It's composed of nisser and troll and other wild creatures on fire-breathing horses, sometimes supplemented with the unquiet dead and the damned, and they most commonly show up in the depths of winter, particularly the liminal time between Yule (Christmas) and New Year to wreck things and kidnap people. It's an overgrown raiding party of monsters and criminals grabbing whoever or whatever isn't secured.
The old stories are very loose and inconsistent, featuring various supernaturals as the leader. One is the witch Guro Rysserova ("horse-tail" or "big-butt"), who in one account recruits Sigurd Dragonslayer by asking him whether he'd prefer to be at the front of Oskoreia or at the back of Heaven. Another is Nøkken, the naiad/nixie/kelpie who drowns people in streams and lakes when not riding around to fuck people up.

Around the 19th century, Odin was glued onto it with the fake etymology Åsgårdreia (the Asgard ride), sometimes Thor too. The whole thing was rebranded a bit and given more of a narrative arc and a faerie structure of going after people who have broken some magical Rule, like violating guest-right or not feeding the nisse or letting the children stay up too late. Yes, really. :p "Go to bed or the Wild Hunt will get you." In later versions, the Christian cross painted on the door and the people and even the farm animals keeps the Hunt away (might have been cribbed from vampire stories + Ash Wednesday), as does gunfire and fireworks.

Take all this with a grain of salt, I am very briefly and loosely summarizing a large body of folklore.
 
Imperial Fister said:
Allow me to tell you about the little known Northern Crusades. Teutonic Knights, anyone?
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Yeah, if, unlike real history, the Norse in this world don't eventually convert peacefully, Crusades against them seem very possible. We need to worry about the 'getting converted' issue first, though. It's more imminent.

Really, the easiest solution in the short term is to make it politically inconvenient for kings to convert. That's basically what happened in real life, the Kings converted for political reasons and brought in and supported the Church. Now, as to how we do that...well, founding a school that actually teaches Cultivation stuff seems like it'd give some serious social heft given that we'd be the first. That's not sufficient, but it's a good first step to solving a lot of the problems we've been discussing here. We just need a bit more of a curriculum and some money and status to do it...
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
You can get orthstirr for non-combat stuff, probably including great works of craft if they get people talking, it's just a lot harder and more time consuming.
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This culturally needs to emphasized more, specifically redefining drengskapr to make these parts of society more desirable. right now its mostly confined to warrior's since a model man is who you want fight along side you. If we can make it more community focused that'd be amazing.

specialization is important, reminds me of gamer fic i read where the protag isnt OP. They had to specialize instead of doing everything at once (gamers in this fic got less stats per level but got more control of stat points). Specialization and redefining drengskapr go hand in hand, right now Orthstirr is gained by having someone's back in combat, to promote specialization we need to broaden what methods of having somebodies back gives orthstirr. Healing and other Seidr uses would be a good thing to focus on when we can. Remember Seidr is considered womnaly and woman often aren't warriors meaning high Orthstirr Seidr specialist are rare.
 
Slickji said:
This culturally needs to emphasized more, specifically redefining drengskapr to make these parts of society more desirable. right now its mostly confined to warrior's since a model man is who you want fight along side you. If we can make it more community focused that'd be amazing.

specialization is important, reminds me of gamer fic i read where the protag isnt OP. They had to specialize instead of doing everything at once (gamers in this fic got less stats per level but got more control of stat points). Specialization and redefining drengskapr go hand in hand, right now Orthstirr is gained by having someone's back in combat, to promote specialization we need to broaden what methods of having somebodies back gives orthstirr. Healing and other Seidr uses would be a good thing to focus on when we can. Remember Seidr is considered womnaly and woman often aren't warriors meaning high Orthstirr Seidr specialist are rare.
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I agree we need to emphasize it more. I will say that we actually don't know what kind of orthstirr you can get for medicine, seidr use, or even crafting. Or for poetry about the deeds of others, legal battles, or a bunch of other situations. I think it's clearly not as much as for combat for the most part, so some re-emphasis is definitely needed, but how much is speculative because we actually don't know the degree of rewards these activities currently provide.

Like, it's possible the seeress is very high orthstirr indeed. Women usually have a lot less than men, but 'usually' and 'knows seidr' don't seem to go together. I suspect she's still lower than if she were a warrior, but it's plausible that the seidr rewards for a woman pursuing seidr are quite substantial...or her orthstirr could be quite low. Either is possible, and we just have no way to actually know or determine one way or the other.

We need more information to know how much of a rebalance is needed, is what I'm saying.
 
You guys are talking about generational advancement, I don't know if that's actually a Christian thing. What we do know is they have beads, decades, and a cross. This is a major boon to them. Each bead is easier to complete than the 1 step in Norse cultivation. Each decade is harder to complete but is stronger than 1 step in Norse cultivation. Like take Gabriel, if he was at our power level unshackled he still hs 1 decade and 8 beads or 18 steps. We have 5 Hamr, 6 Hugr, and 4 Fylgja and our Fylgja levels are functionally unused. We have 10-14 milestone to his 18, and out our next level of Hamr is 31 successes away or double the amount it took to get there. Meanwhile gabirel has just another bead to complete and then a decade for potential spike in power.

The Norse system hits an issue with stepwise growth, by having the steps get too big too quickly. The christians have smaller steps so they see results from training faster and they have a known end point. I an imagine our strongest cultivators windering if they maxed their Hamr out but being unsure.
 
Slickji said:
You guys are talking about generational advancement, I don't know if that's actually a Christian thing. What we do know is they have beads, decades, and a cross. This is a major boon to them. Each bead is easier to complete than the 1 step in Norse cultivation. Each decade is harder to complete but is stronger than 1 step in Norse cultivation. Like take Gabriel, if he was at our power level unshackled he still hs 1 decade and 8 beads or 18 steps. We have 5 Hamr, 6 Hugr, and 4 Fylgja and our Fylgja levels are functionally unused. We have 10-14 milestone to his 18, and out our next level of Hamr is 31 successes away or double the amount it took to get there. Meanwhile gabirel has just another bead to complete and then a decade for potential spike in power.

The Norse system hits an issue with stepwise growth, by having the steps get too big too quickly. The christians have smaller steps so they see results from training faster and they have a known end point. I an imagine our strongest cultivators windering if they maxed their Hamr out but being unsure.
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I'm pretty sure those numbers don't equate like that (I doubt Gabriel has his fylgja equivalent unlocked, for example, meaning his 18 can't equate anywhere close to our unlocks...I still suspect it's Fervor Pool), and suspect Christians still have to deal with escalating costs...but the point about knowing when they've hit the end point is more than fair, and their escalating costs may not be quite as high, depending.

If we're talking advantages, I think Christian cultivation also extends lifespan as well, there's a bit in Gabriel's interlude about him outliving all of us and that being cold comfort in the moment, for example. I still say we could probably negate the effects of age with shapeshifting, but with the Norns looking on it probably wouldn't matter much, so lifespan is definitely a Christian advantage.
 
Slickji said:
You guys are talking about generational advancement, I don't know if that's actually a Christian thing. What we do know is they have beads, decades, and a cross. This is a major boon to them. Each bead is easier to complete than the 1 step in Norse cultivation. Each decade is harder to complete but is stronger than 1 step in Norse cultivation. Like take Gabriel, if he was at our power level unshackled he still hs 1 decade and 8 beads or 18 steps. We have 5 Hamr, 6 Hugr, and 4 Fylgja and our Fylgja levels are functionally unused. We have 10-14 milestone to his 18, and out our next level of Hamr is 31 successes away or double the amount it took to get there. Meanwhile gabirel has just another bead to complete and then a decade for potential spike in power.

The Norse system hits an issue with stepwise growth, by having the steps get too big too quickly. The christians have smaller steps so they see results from training faster and they have a known end point. I an imagine our strongest cultivators windering if they maxed their Hamr out but being unsure.
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Except the Norse system has no steps? You're trying to equate the two systems when they're both fundamentally different. We don't actually know if ascending a Decade gives one a boost in power - it could just be a way of measuring one's Fervor pool or total stats.

The Norse don't have a bottleneck in the form of realms, either. Not to mention that the Norse actually roll a d6, whereas Christians roll a d4, which means our stats are actually stronger.

Ninja'd.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
If we're talking advantages, I think Christian cultivation also extends lifespan as well, there's a bit in Gabriel's interlude about him outliving all of us and that being cold comfort in the moment, for example. I still say we could probably negate the effects of age with shapeshifting, but with the Norns looking on it probably wouldn't matter much, so lifespan is definitely a Christian advantage.
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Do we actually have confirmation on whether Norse cultivation stops aging? Like, I'm hesitant to trust Gabriel - mostly because I suspect he doesn't know the intricacies of Norse cultivation, and I also took his comment about 'outliving these Heathen dogs' to be a general statement, rather than us in particular (although now that I read it again, he probably is referring to us and I'm wrong) - and from what I understand, most Norse cultivators die due to battle, rather than age. I don't think we've actually heard about a cultivator dying of old age before, in quest. However the Norse do seem to still age visibly, so what I'm saying might not matter to begin with.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I'm pretty sure those numbers don't equate like that (I doubt Gabriel has his fylgja equivalent unlocked, for example, meaning his 18 can't equate anywhere close to our unlocks...I still suspect it's Fervor Pool), and suspect Christians still have to deal with escalating costs...but the point about knowing when they've hit the end point is more than fair, and their escalating costs may not be quite as high, depending.
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I do think they have escalating cost but their base per bead is smaller so the cost get crazy later rather than sooner, which is more time to build up larger amounts of training dice.
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
If we're talking advantages, I think Christian cultivation also extends lifespan as well, there's a bit in Gabriel's interlude about him outliving all of us and that being cold comfort in the moment, for example. I still say we could probably negate the effects of age with shapeshifting, but with the Norns looking on it probably wouldn't matter much, so lifespan is definitely a Christian advantage.
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It also could be that the norse die young and gabriel will just live to 80 instead dying in his 40s like we will most likely do.
 
Constenanto said:
Do we actually have confirmation on whether Norse cultivation stops aging? Like, I'm hesitant to trust Gabriel - mostly because I suspect he doesn't know the intricacies of Norse cultivation, and I also took his comment about 'outliving these Heathen dogs' to be a general statement, rather than us in particular (although now that I read it again, he probably is referring to us and I'm wrong) - and from what I understand, most Norse cultivators die due to battle, rather than age. I don't think we've actually heard about a cultivator dying of old age before, in quest. However the Norse do seem to still age visibly, so what I'm saying might not matter to begin with.
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We don't actually know this, no. My personal speculation is that it's a matter of Hamr, with shapeshifting able to stop it, as that makes sense to me, but we have no definitive information one way or the other.
 
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