NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)
- Thread starter I.F. Ister
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- Original Fantasy Action
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- Tags
- norse mythology (mythology) original xianxia cultivation western cultivation ask sirihand did your mother tell you anything? discussion pleases yggdrasil farming gloating gets people killed granary management hubris is a coward's word you will die norsemen do not die when they are killed the qm has a bad memory the qm is bad at math viking courtroom drama (legal drama) vikings open voting
- Location
- Norway
I think it's question-begging to call it "incredibly cynical take" when in fact the Soviet Union collapsed and failed. These aren't fictional countries deserving equal respect in a vacuum, these are real places and one was much better than the other.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
We did discuss the idealistic variant of True Communism in Cultivation, I believe my take on it was that it had the unique attribute of being Exclusively External Power. This would give it all sorts of powerful capabilities, as befits a constructed cultivation system - It's not a natural emerging one - with the slight caveat that people pretty much immediately innovate an Internal Power, because it's made of humans.
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Yeah, if people didn't embezzle, the Soviet Cultivation system as conceived is wildly powerful and works really well. The problem is that there's literally nothing to prevent the embezzling.
I think its incredibly cynical because cultivation arises from culture, not political structure. By making grifting an inherent part of soviet cultivation, it implies certain negative things about soviet culture and the people who made it up. Literal Vikings get to have a metaphysically backed honor system to punish Odrengr, so why don't the Soviets have something similar to discourage or actively punish skimming off the top?
In addition, while history is broadly following the same strokes in this quest, there is literal magic in this world and deciding that because this thing happens in the real world means it has to happen in the literal magic world and directly and utterly shape a cultivation system because of it is nonsensical. Like, the August 1918 assassination attempt on Lenin probably doesn't majorly wound him, because Langston Hughes Lenin isn't a poem in this world, it's a historical document of his cultivation prowess. That alone would drastically reshape history.
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I mean, the Norse actually did punish people for breaking their honor codes. That could get you shamed or killed...the upper level Soviets mostly did skim off the top, either literally or figuratively, so that behavior was in fact rewarded. They aren't really equivalent situations. It's arguable that the Soviet cultivation system didn't allow skimming at first, but if so it got corrupted to the point where it did real quick.
The American Dream system isn't all sunshine and roses, as I mentioned, but arguing that the Soviet system isn't being treated fairly seems odd...the Soviet system was in fact pretty awful in various ways.
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Posting whilst I catch up with the thread whilst sitting in a field, very exciting action!
Please put all my reward dice - the three from this month, and however many I have left from July's three (assuming they accumulate) towards averting True Death for our dudes. I trust you or DeadmanwalkingXi to decide on the optimal allocation.
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Looking back at the Thanes, it looks like they probably have a pretty direct Frenzy equivalent. They're getting flat bonuses on their attacks and defenses just like we do, and one had a 4 and one had a 5. Dunno if that also applies to Tactics like ours or causes berserker stuff, but it might. The Thane we hit also seemingly had a total defensive bonus of +3 from Armor. Also, per IF on Discord they use d5s.
All that seems like good information to have.
All that seems like good information to have.
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Yeah, the American Cultivation that was presented is too idealistic compared to the Soviet one, probably because whoever had the idea was kinda biased towards America.
The whole "American Dream" thing is simply too broad to make a Cultivation system.
Maybe narrow it down to something similar to the Dreng/Odreng system of the Norse. But instead of begin honorable its abaout begin ambitious, chasing the American Dream of becoming rich and famous.
Capitalism is deeply rooted in American culture, so we could have other similarities to Norse Cultivation wich is deeply connected to farming as an economic activity.
Patriotism is also rooted in American culture in a way unlike any other country, so the American Dream would probably be connected to how patriotic and loyal to the country the Cultivator is.
You know, when you think abaout it Cultivation systems based on cultures who exist after the creation of nation-states are much harder to invent. Since the idea itself of "nation" makes the system more restrictive.
The whole "American Dream" thing is simply too broad to make a Cultivation system.
Maybe narrow it down to something similar to the Dreng/Odreng system of the Norse. But instead of begin honorable its abaout begin ambitious, chasing the American Dream of becoming rich and famous.
Capitalism is deeply rooted in American culture, so we could have other similarities to Norse Cultivation wich is deeply connected to farming as an economic activity.
Patriotism is also rooted in American culture in a way unlike any other country, so the American Dream would probably be connected to how patriotic and loyal to the country the Cultivator is.
You know, when you think abaout it Cultivation systems based on cultures who exist after the creation of nation-states are much harder to invent. Since the idea itself of "nation" makes the system more restrictive.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
I mean. Just because the system looks very idealistic doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's share of very serious problems. Just look at IRL America for examples.
Consider for a moment the issues of a system where everyone is incentivised to follow their ambition. It's idealistic but also freakishly unstable as hell. Xianxia America would have politics and problems that make IRL America look like a paragon of stability.
Consider for a moment the issues of a system where everyone is incentivised to follow their ambition. It's idealistic but also freakishly unstable as hell. Xianxia America would have politics and problems that make IRL America look like a paragon of stability.
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I strongly disagree that any system that can make literally any Dream no matter how awful the basis for one's cultivation is 'too idealistic'. Like, it's very explicitly a system that would have empowered the leaders of the Confederacy and their Dream of maintaining a system where they got to own other people. Or one that empowers billionaires and their Dream of being the richest person of all no matter the cost. Or one that could directly empower a serial killer or cult leader. Charles Manson could be a pretty high level cultivator under American Dream cultivation with no issues at all.
It's also a system that can theoretically make for heroes, but that doesn't make it any more idealistic than traditional xianxia cultivation. And I don't think calling traditional xianxia cultivation idealistic is particularly accurate.
Seems doable to me, if fairly complicated, I admit.
I don't think this is actually the Dream of most actual people in America. Some, sure, but not most...and that means it's not really correct for a cultivation system. The reason the Norse system works is that everyone agreed that orthstirr was a thing you wanted and everyone farmed. Everyone in the USA is not trying to get rich and famous.
So. The American Dream system as suggested does not give you power in order to follow your dream. It gives you power for actually making progress on achieving it. That's where resources come into play and the capitalism factor: If you are working 16 hours a day at menial jobs you don't have much time to pursue your Dream and advance your cultivation, now do you? Ditto if you're homeless, as a rule. The rich guy with no worries, though, he can spend all his time pursuing his Dream and cultivating, and so he likely gets a lot more powerful a lot more quickly and his greater cultivation lets him get even richer. The system very much enforces the particular problems with our current society in this regard, IMO.
Basically, having money gives you the ability to pursue your Dream a lot more easily and often makes achieving it much more doable to boot. That seems appropriate for American Dream Cultivation. In theory, everyone is equal and can follow their Dream and become powerful...but in practice, a lack of money sharply limits opportunities to do that.
This seems possible but more in a nid/odreng way where if betraying your country or your vsision of your Dream have similar effects and doesn't really effect the basic premise, IMO.
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- Location
- Norway
My problem with this is that there's no such thing as Capitalism. The word "capitalism" was coined by communists to describe an outgroup, but the outgroup is so large and heterogeneous that it's like saying "People who do not live in yurts" and then making weighty pronouncements about the living habits of "Brick-ists", while struggling to fit houseboats into either the yurt category or the Brickism category.
More strictly, "capitalism" meant whatever isn't communism nor feudalism. But "feudalism" is itself a problematic term lumping together an era, a method of taxation, and two methods of administration (manorialism and vassalage). I have more footnotes but I don't want to go on an arbitrarily long tangent into sub-notes, I will try to keep this short.
The Communists ran Communist Parties that handed out the Communist Manifesto while their countries signed up to the Communist International and carried Communist hamsickle posters; there is nothing so coherent among the so-called Capitalists.
The word "Capitalist" gained popularity for a while during the Cold War because of the bipolar world order, where being USA-aligned was a pretty good thing and also temporarily coherent enough to have a word to talk about*, but that's gotten much less relevant and now my experience is that the word is vaguely gesturing at the leftovers of a dissolving social group.
*this is also the origin of the terms "First World", USA-aligned, "Second World", Soviet-aligned (which has fallen out of use), and "Third World", unaligned leftover countries.
The Third World was mostly South American, African and Middle Eastern countries, which contributed to the new connotation of a backwards country, but technically Third World also included neutral Switzerland when the term was coined.
I am very hazy of what I learned in history classes, but communism under Lenin and Stalin was also greatly different, iirc, with the latter being what comes people talk about it most often when it comes up in general.
It doesn't help that office politics were pretty much enforced and encouraged after Stalin took over to divide his opponents and secure his controll over the party.
I am also doubtful something like the dreng/odreng/nid system wouldn't be built in any cultivation system that was created intentionally, which would also put a check and provide easy confirmation of corruption like embezzlement and such.
Or that oaths would lose power in any functional cultivation systems that doesn't go out of its way to do so.
And let's be honest, in any cultivation system, if there are laws to be kept, there will be people who also cultivate and enforce those laws, with dedicated investigators, who most likely will be close to mind readers.
It doesn't help that office politics were pretty much enforced and encouraged after Stalin took over to divide his opponents and secure his controll over the party.
I am also doubtful something like the dreng/odreng/nid system wouldn't be built in any cultivation system that was created intentionally, which would also put a check and provide easy confirmation of corruption like embezzlement and such.
Or that oaths would lose power in any functional cultivation systems that doesn't go out of its way to do so.
And let's be honest, in any cultivation system, if there are laws to be kept, there will be people who also cultivate and enforce those laws, with dedicated investigators, who most likely will be close to mind readers.
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Lenin did not run the Soviet Union for very long (only 2 years)...he ran Soviet Russia a bit longer but still less than a decade. There being an uncorrupted Soviet system that fell with Lenin is possible, but I think it's more likely that people were just riding a wave of idealism and not succumbing to the corruption as much yet at that point.
I mean, that's sort of the problem with Communism as a philosophy in real life: It doesn't take human greed into account. A lot of neo-Marxists and other people who've expanded on the philosophy do so these days (and have some interesting ideas, if not ones I necessarily agree with), but the version used in the Soviet Union really didn't take that sort of thing into account very well at all. Communism was a great idea on paper that ran into human greed and ambition and sorta fell apart...the system is intended to reflect that.
Sure. The issue is that if the Cultivation system itself doesn't enforce them you're left with humans doing so...and the people in charge are the ones assigning those humans. If the people in charge are all corrupt, so will be those they assign to enforce the laws.
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The Soviet Cultivation System is also extremely idealistic too, honestly - it situates the problems of the system solely in greedy individuals embezzling, rather the constant lying at every level going on within the Soviet system, and the structural factors which made this the only option if you wanted to keep your job. Honestly something like Orthstirr does not feel too off the mark - you want something representing the patronage networks and favours owed as the measure of how much "pull" someone has, which is needed to get everything done whether you're managing a factory or a local Party apparatchik.
The biggest issue with the American system as presented which occurs to nme is that there does not appear to be a good proxy for inherited wealth, when this obviously should make a significant difference.
Honestly once we go past roughly the Wild West era, I think appending cultivation systems to history begin to feel a bit strange, but that might just be me.
Also we may be getting a bit off-topic.
The biggest issue with the American system as presented which occurs to nme is that there does not appear to be a good proxy for inherited wealth, when this obviously should make a significant difference.
Honestly once we go past roughly the Wild West era, I think appending cultivation systems to history begin to feel a bit strange, but that might just be me.
Also we may be getting a bit off-topic.
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To clarify, when I called the American system ideal based I did not mean idealistic. I meant that it is far more attached and carried by the ideals of the culture that created it. The American cultivation system is built on the individual promise of achieving a personal Dream, which is based off the idea of the land of plenty and opportunity. it is based off the American cultural views and value of individualism and 'The Land of Opportunity'. Meanwhile, the Soviet cultures foundational values and goals are apparently backstabbing and selfish hoarding based off the cutivational system as theorized. One system is based off the ideals and goals of the culture, while the other is entirely about pulling the ladder up behind yourself in direct contravention to the cultural values that would have even created a communist cultivation system.
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This is extremely true. Like, we can get away with it in Norse times but things are really not gonna go the same as real life when George Washington can shoot lasers out of his eyes and King George is a literal God King, discounting any of the rather massive changes that magic super powers would cause before that point.
As i said, my main problem is that is too broad to make a coherent system of Cultivation.
We estabilished that Cultivation is based on culture, and this version of the American Dream is too individualistic to work with the premise if a culture-based power system.
I mean, of course not everyone in America want to become rich, just like not everyone anong the Norse wants to become a great warrior.
But the research for wealth and new opportunities its always been something deeply rooted in American culture.
On this i agree with you, the idea of betraying the country/begin un-patriotic harming the development of a Cultivator could work.
The Soviet Union wasn't a Comunist country, calling it Comunist was a buzzword used by American propaganda.
The Soviet Union claimed to be a Socialist country striving to achieve Communism. But in reality it didn't meet any of the criteria to be defined Socialist. Since the workers didn't control the means of production in any way, shape or form.
In modern times the Soviet Union is often defined as State Capitalist, since the industries and means of productions were either controlled by the state or in the hands of oligarchs who composed the political class (so de facto controlled by the state).
In the end the Soviet Union was just a regime like all others, just with a different flavor of propaganda.
I.F. Ister
Fortifying The Thread
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Alright, this is getting off topic. There's a general xianxia thread that you can take this to. And if you'd like to talk politics, take it to the appropriate area
- Location
- In the oldest city on the oldest land
@Imperial Fister When king Alfred said that we should make an example of the noble, did he mean we should kill him or were other options possible?
Look at your options IF, if we don't talk abaout this things we will start planning crazy stuff for the quest. Like when we were considering abaout taking a pet Bear.
Who knows what mischief we could came up with? 👿
That reminds me, we still need to ask around for bear cubs!
I.F. Ister
Fortifying The Thread
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But you've already got a pet bear and you've already got 4-going-on-5 bear cubs!
We actualy have 2 bears, 1 beaver, 1 wolf, 1 albatross and 1 wich we don't know yet.
But we don't want just a bear-husband and bear-children, we want a bear-bear!
Its for the memes IF! Think abaout the memes!