Fair enough let's ask the GM before going further. @Dr. Snark do ordinary Abyss Walkers use the Dark Side regularly either during their duties or training?
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May The Invisible Hand Be With You - (Star Wars CK2-Style Quest)
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Fair enough let's ask the GM before going further. @Dr. Snark do ordinary Abyss Walkers use the Dark Side regularly either during their duties or training?
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I have already posted this video a couple of times but if you are looking for a Canon example of a Dark Side Organization that has existed during millennia with dozens/hundreds of members that doesn´t go fully baby killing we have the Nightsisters. (I mean they were basically mercenaries and assassins, but they no worse than any other group of non-force users mercenaries with the same line of job)
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Max Uristwell
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Apologies for the response time, still on my phone.
First point: That's my phone's autocorrect fucking up. That should have been "consistently struggles", as in "needs to actually try and pull herself back like a normal person rather than just flipping a switch like Ciaran and Asajj do". So that's just a typo that I didn't spot and have now corrected. The "baby-eating, murderous" thing is just pithy shorthand for 'various heinous stuff, a fair bit of it violent'. Y'know, the sort of behaviour we see from the vast majority of people who succumb to the Dark Side.
Second point: This is going to sound really terrible and I want to apologise in advance for that, but I couldn't actually find any appearances from her besides that bit and the immediate aftermath (yay, shitty phone browser). So until you just said something implying other appearance I thought that that event and the dossier (which amounts to "struggles with the Dark Side, her interpersonal relationships are the main help) were literally the only information on her. Again, really sorry.
Third point: That's our personal definitions of "one step away" clashing. If she hadn't been able to step back or feel bad about it I'd have used her as an example of someone who's already snapped. After all, there's still a pretty damn big difference between doing what she did and being totally okay with it.
Also, "once again"? I'm assuming that's directed at people in general since I'm pretty sure you've never said that to me before.
Akasha
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You are ignoring one, critical fact.
The Abyss Walkers are not Sith. Neither is Ciaran, Asajj and, perhaps, Dani..
Using the Dark Side does not make you a Sith. The Sith are a culture. They follow a very specific code of behaviour, have art and traditions of their own, and the Dark Side is merely an aspect - however important it might be - of said culture. Ciaran is Darth Traya; the very definition of that title is one who "betrayed" the teachings of the Jedi and the Sith, which, by definition, makes it impossible for Ciaran to be a Sith. Asajj is the modern exile, who abandoned the teachings of the Sith and was abandoned by them in turn, so that she could make her own way. Dani... well, I don't know anything about her, so I can't tell.
The point is, the Abyss Walkers are not Sith, because they do not subscribe to the culture or the code, and merely use the Dark Side. At the very most, that makes them Dark Jedi, or just Dark Force Sensitives. Furthermore, the critical difference between the Sith and the Abyss Walkers is the fact that the former are obsessed with the Dark Side and are willing to do anything to increase its power, which in turn increases its grasp on them, because it feeds on dark emotions and demands deeds that force you to feel more dark emotions. For example, those who fully fall to the Dark Side often end up killing their loved ones, because even if they went Dark to save those same people, they mysteriously start to see them as weaknesses that need to be removed, or kill them in a fit of uncontrollable rage that, curiously, they never experienced before they went Dark, which tends to result in self-loathing, guilt and hatred, which makes them use more Dark Side, which makes them kill more people... etc. The Sith also follow a code and a culture that makes this not only acceptable, but right. That makes them all Sith. The Abyss Walkers, on the other hand, don't follow any codes or cultures, be it Sith or Jedi, and instead see the Force as a giant box of tools, some colored lighter than others, and only use whatever is necessary for the given situation. I absolutely refuse to call them "Grey" because virtually every single "Grey" character I've seen in the Star Wars fandom was actually a glorified Sith in disguise, except written to be much cooler and special, because he could use the Dark and the Light in his righteous quest to achieve balance by... doing what the Sith do, and establishing their own
"Once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny," refers not to using the Dark Side (why, if I remember correctly, Mace Windu's lightsaber form uses it, and he's a member of the Council), but to, again, following the code and teachings that demand you cut away all bonds and positive feelings, so that you can replace them with negative ones. When you go down that dark path, unless someone pulls you out or you notice the way your common sense is rapidly dying, you will almost inevitably Fall to it, so intoxicated on the power, focusing on it and drowning in it to the point you never bother looking for a solution that doesn't use the Dark Side. Lacking anyone to pull you out or restrain you, because your teachings demanded that you cut all "weaknesses" that are your bonds... that is a stage that the Sith, due to their culture and code, almost inevitably reach at one point. At that level, you get Kylo Ren killing Han, you get Anakin choking the love of his life, for whom he went Dark in the first place, and massacring children...and at point, you also get Darth Malgus murdering his lover, Eleena Daru, to eliminate his "weakness", because he allowed his feelings towards her to influence his actions (oh, the hypocrisy). Once you reach that level, any thought of the "Light" side, or any positive feelings, become utterly repulsive for you, because it keeps reminding you of everything you have thrown away and destroyed for power... which is just as well, because that is also the point at which the Dark Side mutates you so much that it would take you at least one miracle to inspire any positive feelings in another person. That is what going down the dark path means. That is what being a Sith means. And let me tell you, not a single individual in the Abyss Walkers is a Sith... barring the possible exception of Dani. I don't know, because I don't feel like looking through the thread for her detailed description.
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Max Uristwell
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Using a trial that requires a unique creature that merely removes those that fail rather than a system that has a decent success rate. It's the same thing responsible for the mythical reputation for toughness of bombers like the B-17, where people focused on the kind of damage it was possible to survive and ignored the actual survival rate.
Also, @Killerflood, it seems that there's the issue that Dani's most memorable appearance doesn't exactly give the best impression of her. See: the fact that out of the four people involved in this argument Akasha has only heard about her second-hand, I didn't know she was in anything besides that appearance, while I'm not sure about DragonParadox he didn't even try to dispute what I said about her - which implies he didn't see anything wrong with it - and you're the person that invented her.
EDIT: Also, the Nightsisters were still pretty fucking evil.
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Random Member
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Eh, the Nightsisters were still bad. Not baby-killing evil, but still pretty evil. Anyone remember that one time they tried to destroy Coruscant through an Infinity Gate in their quest for galactic domination? Yeah....
This is a very well thought out response but it goes off beside my point which is: "if you can use the Dark Side semi-safely, no matter what you call the user then the Jedi tradition of indoctrinating young force sensitive children into a culture of self sacrifice morally suspect." The Jedi denote as Falling any knowing and consistent use of the Dark Side and they consider it a great evil because they draw a direct parallel between that and evil, not danger, not the possibility of losing yourself, the certainty. Without that certainty they lose a lot of their moral high ground.
Killerflood
Corporal Cannonfodder
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I understand your position a bit better now. Alright, thanks for explaining.
"Once again" was referring to my post 2 down from the one you went back to find. deadcrystal's specifically. As for Dani's moments:
1. Sabaac Night On the Oracle (first appearance)
2. Gambled Too High 1-3 (said Dark Side romp which shows her going off the rails)
3. Playing With the Big Girls Now
4. Temple Bombing - Fugitive (by Dr. Snark, part of the Temple Bombing)
5. Movie Night On the Oracle
6. Lean On Me
7. Date Night On Taris
It's just that every other time she appears she's not the primary focus or even POV. Also she's primarily a side character I write about. I whine (and yes, I consider my arguing over Dani's character whining) about her because I created her character and I'd rather my character who I intentionally wrote to be flawed not take those next few slippery steps into becoming a monster and thus needing to be put down. If everyone starts to think of her as said monster then I would have to write some more omakes to say otherwise and I don't have any faith in my motivational levels being high enough to do so. So I whine and try to convince others she's not (supposed to be).
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Max Uristwell
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That really is an excellent post, but unfortunately...
Yeah, that. The argument is @DragonParadox espousing his point and me saying that "the actual proportion of Force-sensitives who can even semi-safely use the Dark Side is so low that it's negligible, therefore the Jedi way isn't morally suspect enough to oppose since it's the only way that works on a noticeable scale".
Random Member
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I don't think you're reading "forever will it dominate your destiny" right. It's more "it'll always come back to haunt you and try to pull you down further". Which is always a problem with those who aren't protected by Protagonist Prerogative.
I guess you could read it like that but 'I want to spare them emotional pain' is a very weak excuse to indoctrinate thousands of toddlers to value their happiness and lives less than those of others. It's reasonable to assume that at least some people if not indoctrinated would probably take the haunting.
The Nightsisters have an entire order made up of people who use the dark side well enough. That is a noticeable scale, seeing as force sensitives are quite rare to begin with and the Jedi order itself is not that large for a galactic organization.
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Random Member
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Except "sparing them emotional pain" is a valid excuse considering this is a setting where that emotional pain has a good chance to literally turn them into Magical Psychopaths.
Max Uristwell
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Yeah, I only recognise two of those (Gambled Too High and Temple Bombing) and only realised Dani was in Gambled Too High. Also, you listed two 6s (I edited the list on my reply because I'm anal about that sort of thing).
I feel ya, man. It's part of the reason I've never done anything resembling an omake beyond a pithy one-liner or a short dialogue exchange (ever, not just in here), creating a whole new character for them is too much work for not enough gain if I'm not going to actually turn it into a full story.
I dunno, 'haunt you' in this case means 'try to slurp up all that is good in your life like a bowlful of delicious noodles and turn you into a hate-filled shell of your former self'. I bet the rate of people willing to take the haunting drops real fast when that's taken into account.
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How good a chance though and more importantly seeing as it's their risk to take, shouldn't they have some say in the matter? Are force sensitives nothing more than living weapons that need to be safely muzzled for the greater good?
I agree but since it is not certainty or near certainty as seen by all the sane Darik Side users running around and the fact that Vectivus even developed 'how not to go crazy' lore it should be a matter of informed consent, which Jedi younglings can't give.
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Max Uristwell
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Normally I'm of the school of thought that says people should be allowed to learn through the consequences of a bad decision but I'd be a damn sight less willing to let people learn that way if said consequences drove them irreparably insane.
You're absolutely right, 99.999999999999999% is not 100%.
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Akasha
The Only Truth
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Perhaps, but I'd say the millenia of Dark Side users, many of them fallen Jedi who thought they could use the Dark Side for the greater good, becoming genocidal monsters trying to exterminate the Jedi Order and raze the Republic for the slightest of reasons (often more perceived than real), allows them to recover said moral high ground.
Do not misunderstand me, I am well aware of the fact that the Jedi Order, much like any other group, organization, faction, nation or religion, has its bad eggs and a bunch of fuck-ups in its history. It is inevitable. However, I'd say being repeatedly brought to the brink of utter extinction by people who went Dark (Exar Kun, Revan, Malak, Traya, Nihilus) and who were Dark all along (Vitiate and his Sith Empire, Sion, etc.) is a far better excuse for their behaviour than virtually any other organization or faction has ever had for its paranoia, especially since it is practically a cliche in its own right that the Jedi become exterminated the moment any significant Dark Side presence shows up. You might want to note that the Republic and the Jedi, for the most part, don't actually have any real enemies who can fight and truly harm them. The closest thing that comes to my mind is the Vong invasion, but that hasn't happened yet. That means virtually every single major disaster in the galaxy is, in fact, the fault of someone who decided to use the Dark Side for some reason, and went bugfuck crazy, or just decided to spontaneously raze the Republic and replace it with a totalitarian empire.
Furthermore, if I recall correctly, the Jedi teachings are less about "repressing" emotions, and more about "understanding them" and then "releasing them into the Force". That means they are not, in fact, locked in a mental box until the box explodes, like many people believe, but are actually dealt with properly, for the most part. Indeed, I'd say that the Jedi are far less severe or morally suspect in regards to the children and the members of the order than most real-life orders and, indeed, religions, have been towards its members, as far as teachings and indoctrination go. After all, is it not a fact that Christianity is all about that turning the other cheek, self-sacrifice and perpetual kindness and forgiveness? Still, that is probably a topic that should be avoided, lest it blows this thread up like a nuke.
Also, my previous post had your quote in it, but it was actually directed at more than just you. I believe someone before you (or was it you?) claimed that the Abyss Walkers are Sith, and so is Ciaran, our protagonist. The post was meant to be, for the most part, a response to that. Sorry for the confusion.
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A case could be made that begin indoctrinated into denying your emotions desires and even your value as an individual for the greater good is also a form of insanity, if one that is far more benign as far as the greater society is concerned. I'm not arguing that the dark side is better, just that you could begin Jedi training at 18 as opposed to 4 and you would get... slightly worse Jedi. You could certainly have some kind of monitoring of the Force Sensitive people bellow that age guard against them going insane. Sure some of them still would and they would hurt themselves and others, but those risks feel more moral for a society to take rather than brainwashing all your high risk criminals to be cookie cutter saints (except when they snap).
Random Member
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Because little kids can be trusted to make the choice that's less likely to turn them into a cackling maniac?
Look, that's a nice ideal and all that, it's just not one that's very workable in this setting. Because for every person that might turn into a functional living being through your method, there are many more who wouldn't and become insane. Is it okay to let that happen if there's a way to prevent that?
It's space Buddhism, that's where Lucas 'borrowed' the concepts from and that is very much about the denial of desire. Emotion is incidental to the equation except insofar as they reflect said desire and individuality. It's about forcing children to live by a self sacrificing religious ideal at an age when they cannot understand the ramifications of that ideal.
Killerflood
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Guys, guys, this isn't the Jedi morality thread. This may have started out somewhat connected with the quest but is now just a general debate. @DragonParadox, @Akasha, and anyone else, please take this to either PM's or the Star Wars discussion thread if you wish to continue the debate.
Yes, in my opinion at least it is better for society to suffer more on a quantitative scale then callously deny the right to choose their own fate to a genetic minority for 'the greater good'. A society that is willing to make that sacrifice is itself evil, even if that evil impacts only a minute minority that is generally unable to see the wrong done to it.
Good point. Stopping with this message.
Skywalker_T-65
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Alright, here's the thing:
A. The Jedi don't really muzzle their members or take away all happiness or anything like that. If nothing else, while the Code may say that (and some masters may argue that, hello Vrook), it doesn't really work that way in practice. Obi-Wan had plenty of attachment to Anakin and Qui-Gon and Siri. Qui-Gon was utterly broken by Xanatos going dark, which happened because he was attached to his apprentices. Aayla Secura and Kit Fisto are very close to each other, as were Barris and Luminara. Even Mace Windu himself was rather attached to Depa.
The Jedi Code, and the Jedi themselves, are more about not letting these things rule them than they are about getting rid of them entirely. It's okay to care deeply for your fellow Jedi (or even someone outside the order) but you can't let it become the most important thing to you. Even then there is some leeway, the issue is much less one of 'don't feel at all' and one more like 'don't let your attachment rule everything you do'. People tend to flanderize the Jedi a bit in this regard, not helped by Lucas being a crap writer for all his story telling and world building skills.
And, incidentally, it's little different from your average soldier. Most soldiers are, if not directly trained this way, carrying a hefty expectation to be willing to self-sacrifice if it means saving their squad or civilians. Otherwise so many soldiers wouldn't jump on a grenade.
(it isn't universal, just like Jedi who are willing to completely stunt their emotions aren't universal)
B. There's a large gap between 'oh, I used some questionably Dark powers once in a blue moon' and 'using the Dark Side'. The former is in Blackguard territory, the latter is the Sith.
Here's the thing. The Dark Side is, by its very nature, corruptive. The 'Easy Path' and all that. If you use the Dark Side to make things easier on you, you then want to use it more. That's the nature of the beast. Using the Dark Side is an addiction that makes you want to use it more and more and more often as you go along. Be it because it's 'more powerful' or because you think you can control what it makes you want to do. And that's what the Dark Side does.
It makes you want to do these things. It seduces you.
When Yoda says it will dominate your destiny, he's saying that if you actually go down that path, it is very hard to stop yourself. The Walkers, and we don't know how much they actually use the Dark Side (as opposed to just having the odd 'somewhat dark' power be used once in awhile) are not a good example of the average person using the Dark Side. Not only do we have the Blackguard- who are experts at keeping themselves in control -but we also have an utterly massive support network intended to keep an eye on people and keep them from going too far.
The Jensaarai are a better example of what happens when someone wants to use the Dark Side, but doesn't think about how to keep from falling while doing so. They're going to go crazy in short order if we don't stop that.
The Jedi refuse to let their members touch the Dark Side, because they know very well what happens if they do. And the Jedi are not equipped to try and keep an eye on every single one of their members (let's remember the Walkers and Blackguard are still very small compared to the sum total of the Jedi Order) to keep them from taking that one step that pushes them over the edge.
And Star Wars history is rife with people who take that one step to go too far.
EDIT: Damnit, ninjaed.
Anyway, I'm not going to say anything else.
A. The Jedi don't really muzzle their members or take away all happiness or anything like that. If nothing else, while the Code may say that (and some masters may argue that, hello Vrook), it doesn't really work that way in practice. Obi-Wan had plenty of attachment to Anakin and Qui-Gon and Siri. Qui-Gon was utterly broken by Xanatos going dark, which happened because he was attached to his apprentices. Aayla Secura and Kit Fisto are very close to each other, as were Barris and Luminara. Even Mace Windu himself was rather attached to Depa.
The Jedi Code, and the Jedi themselves, are more about not letting these things rule them than they are about getting rid of them entirely. It's okay to care deeply for your fellow Jedi (or even someone outside the order) but you can't let it become the most important thing to you. Even then there is some leeway, the issue is much less one of 'don't feel at all' and one more like 'don't let your attachment rule everything you do'. People tend to flanderize the Jedi a bit in this regard, not helped by Lucas being a crap writer for all his story telling and world building skills.
And, incidentally, it's little different from your average soldier. Most soldiers are, if not directly trained this way, carrying a hefty expectation to be willing to self-sacrifice if it means saving their squad or civilians. Otherwise so many soldiers wouldn't jump on a grenade.
(it isn't universal, just like Jedi who are willing to completely stunt their emotions aren't universal)
B. There's a large gap between 'oh, I used some questionably Dark powers once in a blue moon' and 'using the Dark Side'. The former is in Blackguard territory, the latter is the Sith.
Here's the thing. The Dark Side is, by its very nature, corruptive. The 'Easy Path' and all that. If you use the Dark Side to make things easier on you, you then want to use it more. That's the nature of the beast. Using the Dark Side is an addiction that makes you want to use it more and more and more often as you go along. Be it because it's 'more powerful' or because you think you can control what it makes you want to do. And that's what the Dark Side does.
It makes you want to do these things. It seduces you.
When Yoda says it will dominate your destiny, he's saying that if you actually go down that path, it is very hard to stop yourself. The Walkers, and we don't know how much they actually use the Dark Side (as opposed to just having the odd 'somewhat dark' power be used once in awhile) are not a good example of the average person using the Dark Side. Not only do we have the Blackguard- who are experts at keeping themselves in control -but we also have an utterly massive support network intended to keep an eye on people and keep them from going too far.
The Jensaarai are a better example of what happens when someone wants to use the Dark Side, but doesn't think about how to keep from falling while doing so. They're going to go crazy in short order if we don't stop that.
The Jedi refuse to let their members touch the Dark Side, because they know very well what happens if they do. And the Jedi are not equipped to try and keep an eye on every single one of their members (let's remember the Walkers and Blackguard are still very small compared to the sum total of the Jedi Order) to keep them from taking that one step that pushes them over the edge.
And Star Wars history is rife with people who take that one step to go too far.
EDIT: Damnit, ninjaed.
Anyway, I'm not going to say anything else.
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Exactly, and we have a great example that letting the force sensitives be old enough to know in what they are getting into when they join the Jedi is a great idea.
Luke´s Skywalker New Jedi Order, in which, aside from a few orphans that were rescued and adopted to the order, all the people who joined were in their late teens or older, and believe me the new system worked pretty well.
Barondoctor
The things I chase come to me.
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One kyp durron aside. =p
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I´ve said pretty well, not perfectly.