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May The Invisible Hand Be With You - (Star Wars CK2-Style Quest)

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Eh, Kyp had the issue of getting possessed by a Sith Ghost :V


(speaking of which, we really really really need to find Exar Kun sooner than later before he does that to one of our archeology teams on Yavin)
 
The Jedi in this era take what they believe is the safest approach possible because of that whole 'a single Sith Lord can become an unkillable planet destroyer if things go wrong' problem that's so common historically. Taking chances is not seen in a good light when just one guy going wrong could lead to enormous amounts of people dying if they are powerful enough and find the right ancient Sith ruin (bearing in mind the galaxy is littered with ancient Sith ruins, many of them haunted).

Of course, they overdo it and/or are wrong about the best approach being to train everybody from birth or not at all. But it's not an incomprehensible approach to the problem.
 
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The main issue with the Jedi is the insistence that they're the only true solution to the problem of dark side corruption. It only takes a single major counter-factual to prove them wrong, and in this case Ciaran and the Abyss Watchers are that major counter-factual, because they're not content to limit themselves to a single out of the way planet or exotic species or the outer rim, like the other alternative force sects. It's the underpinning for their position of prominence in the republic, and for their expectation that they get to recruit the promising force sensitives automatically (that the default is that they should become Jedi if the Jedi chose to recruit them), and are the arbiters of when they get to use force to apprehend or kill force users.

This isn't a light side/dark side debate. This is a debate about how the Jedi are an entrenched power structure who the existence of Ciaran and the Abyss Watchers directly challenges their "right to rule" so to speak. That the Council is having trouble accepting the Tython Jedi should make it clear that there would be institutional difficulties if the full extent of the Abyss Watchers were known, and that they remain an obstacle to Ciaran and her crew moving freely. Not to mention the whole crime issue and blasé approach to killing people (albeit usually criminals) that we've sort of institutionalized.

I also find the idea that the Abyss Watchers wouldn't be considered darksiders by the Jedi confusing. They mostly have dark side and neutral influences available in their philosophies on the force, and lack the core light side teachings that denote a Jedi (excepting, perhaps, Ripath but he's a weirdo). Their main method of keeping a lid on dark side corruption was invented by a Sith, for crying out loud.
 
Akasha said:
The Sith are a culture. They follow a very specific code of behaviour, have art and traditions of their own, and the Dark Side is merely an aspect - however important it might be - of said culture.
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"POWAAAH!!! UUUNNNLIIIMMITEEED POWAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!" ~ Sith culture and philosophy in a nutshell.

Seriously, everything else is just lip-service to make they're unending thirst for MOAR POWAH sound acceptable to other people, barring a few once-in-a-blue-moon oddballs.

Rest of your point stands, though.
 
DragonParadox said:
Fair enough let's ask the GM before going further. @Dr. Snark do ordinary Abyss Walkers use the Dark Side regularly either during their duties or training?
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That's a bit more complicated than you think it is.

Let me explain: Walker training doesn't require a trainee to use the Dark Side, but it does invariably require them to spend a lot of time in the Home - a confirmed Force Nexus that specifically is connected to the Dark Side. The purpose of that is two-fold: first, to help acclimate a trainee to more extreme Force "pressures" so that they aren't blindsided if they end up in another Nexus, and second to help them understand what the Dark is. It is intoxicating and empowering. It is corrupting and addicting. For a Walker to come out of their training complete they have to understand that the Dark Side of the Force is incredibly dangerous even when used "properly" and that the consequences of losing oneself to it are horrific.

Now as for whether Walkers use the Dark Side regularly that's legitimately a case-by-case basis and highly dependent on their personality. One the one extreme you have Riphath, who is quite literally a Jedi now and wouldn't really use the Dark Side for any reason.

The other end is Kygeetu san Torgh.

"Now hold on, isn't Dani the one who actively struggles with the addictive nature of the Dark Side at times?" That is true. But she's got a support network and enough willpower to pull herself back from the brink, and more importantly she's fully aware of the consequences (at least that's how I see it from where I stand).

Kygeetu is probably the Abysswalker who would Fall almost immediately given the right situation. Her morality is 100% based on what Ciaran wants her to do, she's far more prone to all of those negative emotions the Dark Side feeds on, and so on. The main reason she hasn't is because she's literally that much of a fanatic and didn't do so because Ciaran (indirectly) told her she couldn't do that.

Don't get me wrong; her fangirlism is hilarious and she's a great source of comedy in Panory's omakes. But at the same time, that level of fanaticism generally means that bad things could easily happen.

Edit: It's basically like this:

"Average" Abysswalker: Falling to the Dark Side is bad because it could turn you into a mockery of your former self and completely destroy you.

Kygeetu: Falling to the Dark Side is bad because Lady Ciaran said so!
 
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Well, it's her fanaticism and focus that makes Kygeetu one of the most personally dangerous Abyss Walkers, it makes sense it'd be a double edged sword.

It's also one of the reasons she's so valuable, she can be used for any job.
 
Dr. Snark said:
That's a bit more complicated than you think it is.

Let me explain: Walker training doesn't require a trainee to use the Dark Side, but it does invariably require them to spend a lot of time in the Home - a confirmed Force Nexus that specifically is connected to the Dark Side. The purpose of that is two-fold: first, to help acclimate a trainee to more extreme Force "pressures" so that they aren't blindsided if they end up in another Nexus, and second to help them understand what the Dark is. It is intoxicating and empowering. It is corrupting and addicting. For a Walker to come out of their training complete they have to understand that the Dark Side of the Force is incredibly dangerous even when used "properly" and that the consequences of losing oneself to it are horrific.

Now as for whether Walkers use the Dark Side regularly that's legitimately a case-by-case basis and highly dependent on their personality. One the one extreme you have Riphath, who is quite literally a Jedi now and wouldn't really use the Dark Side for any reason.

The other end is Kygeetu san Torgh.

"Now hold on, isn't Dani the one who actively struggles with the addictive nature of the Dark Side at times?" That is true. But she's got a support network and enough willpower to pull herself back from the brink, and more importantly she's fully aware of the consequences (at least that's how I see it from where I stand).

Kygeetu is probably the Abysswalker who would Fall almost immediately given the right situation. Her morality is 100% based on what Ciaran wants her to do, she's far more prone to all of those negative emotions the Dark Side feeds on, and so on. The main reason she hasn't is because she's literally that much of a fanatic and didn't do so because Ciaran (indirectly) told her she couldn't do that.

Don't get me wrong; her fangirlism is hilarious and she's a great source of comedy in Panory's omakes. But at the same time, that level of fanaticism generally means that bad things could easily happen.

Edit: It's basically like this:

"Average" Abysswalker: Falling to the Dark Side is bad because it could turn you into a mockery of your former self and completely destroy you.

Kygeetu: Falling to the Dark Side is bad because Lady Ciaran said so!
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Goraah mostly just uses the Dark Side by channeling his enjoyment of fighting into his physical enhancements to smash things even harder and increase his natural Hutt resilience.
 
Dr. Snark said:
Kygeetu is probably the Abysswalker who would Fall almost immediately given the right situation. Her morality is 100% based on what Ciaran wants her to do, she's far more prone to all of those negative emotions the Dark Side feeds on, and so on. The main reason she hasn't is because she's literally that much of a fanatic and didn't do so because Ciaran (indirectly) told her she couldn't do that.
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You know, I can't believe I just realized that she's our Hand.
 
Dr. Snark said:
Now as for whether Walkers use the Dark Side regularly that's legitimately a case-by-case basis and highly dependent on their personality. One the one extreme you have Riphath, who is quite literally a Jedi now and wouldn't really use the Dark Side for any reason.
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Not even in extremis, like say if Dara's life was on the line? I mean unlike most Jedi he knows it's not instant insanity and even they can slip in moments of extreme stress.
 
DragonParadox said:
Not even in extremis, like say if Dara's life was on the line? I mean unlike most Jedi he knows it's not instant insanity and even they can slip in moments of extreme stress.
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I'm generalizing for the sake of convenience. Whether or not something like that actually happens is another matter entirely.
 
DragonParadox said:
Not even in extremis, like say if Dara's life was on the line? I mean unlike most Jedi he knows it's not instant insanity and even they can slip in moments of extreme stress.
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I don't know how he would handle it to be honest. He knows how to clinical detachment. He also did ptsd (I couldn't hold my lightsaber after nearly getting killed by the Sith Acolyte) and would also be most likely to Catholic guilt himself over it (think Daredevil killing someone on purpose).

I'm not sure, and I know he hopes to never learn.
 
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Dr. Snark said:
Kygeetu: Falling to the Dark Side is bad because Lady Ciaran said so!
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That would mean that she's incompetent. Proper Kygeetu would be something like this: Falling to the Dark Side is bad because it could turn you into a mockery of your former self and completely destroy you, but the really important reason is because Lady Ciaran said so!
 
Varder said:
That would mean that she's incompetent. Proper Kygeetu would be something like this: Falling to the Dark Side is bad because it could turn you into a mockery of your former self and completely destroy you, but the really important reason is because Lady Ciaran said so!
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But that doesn't get the point of her devotion, she would become a mockery of herself and completely destroy herself happily if Lady Ciaran commanded it of her.

If Ciaran wills it, Kygeetu will do it.
 
Varder said:
That would mean that she's incompetent. Proper Kygeetu would be something like this: Falling to the Dark Side is bad because it could turn you into a mockery of your former self and completely destroy you, but the really important reason is because Lady Ciaran said so!
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Try: Falling to the Dark Side and turning into a mockery of your former self and being completely destroyed are both bad because Lady Ciaran said so!

Among every Star Wars (and Star Wars-adjacent) character I've got the slightest knowledge of, there's something especially terrifying about Kygeetu san Torgh. That level of devotion, the total lack of a true ego or super-ego beyond "being whatever makes Lady Ciaran happy" is disturbing on so many levels. Bloody well done, @Dr. Snark.

By the way, is it a hard or soft 'g' in Kygeetu?
 
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Killerflood said:
... Ky-'j'eetoo? ... If it was a soft 'g', why not use 'j'?
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Because the Latin alphabet, particularly for someone who's grown up speaking English, is a sneaky bugger (see: gem, gymnasium, tragedy, geography - which has both sorts, the bastard - manage etc.) and I don't like to get things wrong.

EDIT: Besides, by that logic it should be spelled Ky[whatever]eetoo not Ky[whatever]eetu.
 
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Max Uristwell said:
Because the Latin alphabet, particularly for someone who's grown up speaking English, is a sneaky bugger (see: gem, gymnasium, tragedy, geography - which has both sorts, the bastard - manage etc.) and I don't like to get things wrong.

EDIT: Besides, by that logic it should be spelled Ky[whatever]eetoo not Ky[whatever]eetu.
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adaer said:
I mean, you could ask that about any use of a soft g. And because it looks more pronounceable with a g.
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I'll give you two that. Still, it just sounds bad to me somehow. The hard 'g' gives her name ... presence I guess?
 
I mean, about the only permutation that has the same presence as "Ky-gee-too" would be "Kyh-zhee-too" and I'm too lazy to pronounce it in my head with all that breathiness to it.

While we're on pronunciation? I haven't figured out whether I like "Riff-ath" or "riff-uth". I just know that I don't like Wikitubia's "riff-ayth". What do people think?
 
XenonPrime said:
But that doesn't get the point of her devotion, she would become a mockery of herself and completely destroy herself happily if Lady Ciaran commanded it of her.

If Ciaran wills it, Kygeetu will do it.
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Yeah, a little. But the original phrase looks like she just doesn't know the dangers of the Dark Side. Fanatics are dangerous because even if they know facts, there's a fat chance it will be discarded if it doesn't fit their view of the world.
 
Varder said:
Yeah, a little. But the original phrase looks like she just doesn't know the dangers of the Dark Side. Fanatics are dangerous because even if they know facts, there's a fat chance it will be discarded if it doesn't fit their view of the world.
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No, it makes her look like she considers anything beyond "Ciaran doesn't want me to do this" to be irrelevant. There's a difference between ignoring a fact because it doesn't fit your worldview or because you don't have the mental capacity to comprehend it and ignoring a fact because you genuinely don't care about it.
 
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