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May The Invisible Hand Be With You - (Star Wars CK2-Style Quest)

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MonkeyTypewriter said:
She was originally a criminal yes, and certainly likes money. But she's never been involved in the slave trade, selling heavy narcotics like death-sticks or prostitution.
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I mentioned that there are lines she will not cross, even though she is a bad guy. That she doesn't participate in the slave trade - merely have friendly partnerships with those in it - doesn't invalidate my argument. That is one of the lines she won't cross. On narcotics, exactly what is it do you think those smuggling and black market base actions are? As for prostitution, that's not criminal or bad, so it doesn't help your argument. (Also I think that's what the Nar Shaddaa nightclub is about.)

MonkeyTypewriter said:
Her illegal operations are a steadily declining share of her business
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Only by virtue of the fact that we can just as easily profit off of the Sith Lords looking to take over the galaxy and because they don't show up as base upgrades as much as more legitimate sources of revenue. When they do show up, we take them, as shown by this very turn's purchases. (Versuch Labs, the black market options, and the smuggling options.)
 
Andres110 said:
I mentioned that there are lines she will not cross, even though she is a bad guy. That she doesn't participate in the slave trade - merely have friendly partnerships with those in it - doesn't invalidate my argument. That is one of the lines she won't cross. On narcotics, exactly what is it do you think those smuggling and black market base actions are? As for prostitution, that's not criminal or bad, so it doesn't help your argument. (Also I think that's what the Nar Shaddaa nightclub is about.)


Only by virtue of the fact that we can just as easily profit off of the Sith Lords looking to take over the galaxy and because they don't show up as base upgrades as much as more legitimate sources of revenue. When they do show up, we take them, as shown by this very turn's purchases. (Versuch Labs, the black market options, and the smuggling options.)
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forced prostitution he means.
also ciaran is more then her lust for profit jeez. her entire character arc so far is realizing it.
EDIT: also? we get SO much more money from legal things then non legal.
 
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dredloki said:
also ciaran is more then her lust for profit jeez. her entire character arc so far is realizing it.
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I have not been denying that there is more to Ciaran than her greed.


@Publicola, for base upgrades, I'd like to recommend some gambling-related establishments like casinos. They make a ludicrous amount of money and so would make us lots of profit. Some celebrities and politicians like to gamble, so if we can get them into a sufficient amount of gambling debt (possibly aided through the use of intoxicants) we would gain additional influence through debt and blackmail.
 
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Andres110 said:
On narcotics, exactly what is it do you think those smuggling and black market base actions are?
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Anything we transport from planet to planet in violation of some law is 'smuggling'. Hence, running the blockade on Pantora (to bring food to starving people) is 'smuggling', as is selling heklu from Riileb. We're invested in Borvo's 'black market' on Naboo, but he's mostly out of the game, and his brief fling with slave trading did not happen in this quest (since we got him off Naboo before that occurred). He does trade in narcotics, but it's off the 'incredibly minor narcotic that's legal to sell' variety (cf. marijuana, at least if you're in certain US states; alcohol might be a better analogy). The nightclub is a bit skeevy, but @Dr. Snark would have definitely told us if that base purchase (or any other) mean we were now in the prostitution business as pimps.

Basically: when the galaxy is as corrupt as the Star Wars one, 'black market' dealings could be anywhere on the spectrum from dark to gray to light. Just like us.
 
Andres110 said:
I have not been denying that there is more to Ciaran than her greed.


@Publicola, for base upgrades, I'd like to recommend some gambling-related establishments like casinos. They make a ludicrous amount of money and so would make us lots of profit. Some celebrities and politicians like to gamble, so if we can get them into a sufficient amount of gambling debt (possibly aided through the use of intoxicants) we would gain additional influence through debt and blackmail.
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we already have some in narshadda.
 
Publicola said:
Basically: when the galaxy is as corrupt as the Star Wars one, 'black market' dealings could be anywhere on the spectrum from dark to gray to light.
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Yes, and I believe that some of the smuggling we involve ourselves in is very much dark.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean that we do some dark smuggling, not "very dark" smuggling.

Publicola said:
The nightclub is a bit skeevy, but @Dr. Snark would have definitely told us if that base purchase (or any other) mean we were now in the prostitution business as pimps.
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How is it skeevy?

dredloki said:
we already have some in narshadda.
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Well we don't have any on Coruscant, which is where such establishments would be most important and most profitable.
 
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Dr. Snark said:
I'm going to put an end to this by saying flat-out that re-recruiting Darra is Not Happening. There's basically no logical reason for her to trust Ciaran to a degree enough for her to be a Hero Unit ever again.
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It is very understandable that Darra is out of the table now, but would it possible to recruit Quinlan Vos?

Our insane critical success could give us the chance of at least approaching him (since he has been infiltrated in Dooku´s inner circle for quite some time now).

And he could be an extremely useful asset in our organization: He is one of the best Jedi Sentinels of his generation (second only to his master Tholme), with his post-cognition he has an incredibly useful tool for any spy and/or archaeologist, he is a great duelist (he defeated Sora Bulk, who helped Master Windu to perfect the Vaapad), and he has been doubting the Jedi as an organization for quite some time...

PD: all of this is part of Legends, in the Clone Wars comics...
 
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Dr. Snark said:
-185 (Council of Neutral Systems)
-60 (Militia recruitment; Turn 19)
-50 (Military Academy, Kalee; Turn 19)
-75 (CNS Embassy, Coruscant; Turn 22)
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Why are we paying for this stuff? We are not the Council of Neutral Systems. This should be their property and the upkeep costs should thus belong to them.
 
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Andres110 said:
We are not the Council of Neutral Systems.
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:Citation Needed:

:V

More seriously, it's how Ciaran flexes her muscles, and gets things she wants done when she want them done in the CNS. She wants an embassy? She builds it and subsidizes it's operating costs, and presents it as a fait accompli. "Hey Satine, you're all into diplomacy, right? I bought you an embassy so you can go off and do that. No need to thank me, ta ta!"
 
Andres110 said:
I mentioned that there are lines she will not cross, even though she is a bad guy. That she doesn't participate in the slave trade - merely have friendly partnerships with those in it - doesn't invalidate my argument. That is one of the lines she won't cross. On narcotics, exactly what is it do you think those smuggling and black market base actions are? As for prostitution, that's not criminal or bad, so it doesn't help your argument. (Also I think that's what the Nar Shaddaa nightclub is about.)
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Please define "bad guy." Because at this point I'm not sure what you are arguing beyond vague moral approbation of Ciaran.
 
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Andres110 said:
A person who does bad things for bad reasons.
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Floom said:
So what's bad?
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I'd say it's more along the lines of Ciaran does bad things for selfish reasons, as well as good things for selfish reasons. She has a Sith-lite mentality, but is smart enough to reinvest to let it regrow naturally and the people she helped give her willing praise instead of conquering them and demanding praise.

Her charity follows a objectivist style thought process (will investing in this now bring me more credits in the long term?). She does not act out of the goodness of her heart or believe in a cause, but with the goal of making others happy (usually the huddled masses as they're the easiest to make happy) with in turn makes her feel happy.
 
I've a feeling that this whole Ciaran morality debate isn't going to go anywhere, considering that what people consider moral or not tends to have a quite a bit of variation.
 
I don't understand why people are so averse to the idea of playing a bad person. That's the only reason I can think of for why people try to justify some of the things Ciaran has done. I have seen people seriously argue that "Doing bad things to people isn't evil if it makes you happy" just so they can say that Ciaran isn't a bad person. It is the definition of denialist.
 
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Andres110 said:
I don't understand why people are so averse to the idea of playing a bad person. That's the only reason I can think of for why people try to justify some of the things Ciaran has done. I have seen people seriously argue that "Doing bad things to people isn't evil if it makes you happy" just so they can say that Ciaran isn't a bad person. It is the definition of denialist.
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Okay. Some people don't see it that way. And that's probably why it seems so weird. After all, we only have one pair of eyes with which we can look at things with. Some people don't think that what Ciaran does is bad. Some people think it's somewhere in between. Some people think it's bad. Admittedly, that same controversy is likely part of why people like Ciaran's character. It's a complex moral situation portrayed well in writing, that doesn't come with it's own judgement on what's good or bad. That's a rare thing to read. Kudos to Dr. Snark, for that sort of characterization.
 
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Andres110 said:
I don't understand why people are so averse to the idea of playing a bad person. That's the only reason I can think of for why people justify some of the things Ciaran has done. I have seen people seriously argue that "Doing bad things to people isn't evil if it makes you happy" just so they can say that Ciaran isn't a bad person.
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It's not that I think she's a good person, I just don't think she's a bad person either. Ciaran is this complex mess of things that even Teron got lost in what she was really like. At the end of the day she's a person, and people have quiet fluid morals changed by beliefs and circumstances.

Objectivism (the ideology most known by playing Bioshock because the books are too dry) says that people don't give money because it's the right thing to do, we do it because it gives us this warm fuzzy feeling inside called happiness. It makes us feel as though we fulfilled so karmic quota so that we can do a bad thing later on. Ciaran's selfishness might be responsible for some bad things, but it's also responsible for a lot of good (Taris and Kalee being the best example).

Andres110 said:
She makes others happy because it makes her money, and money makes her happy.
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That's called being a businesswoman. Greedy, yes? Corrupt, oh definitely? But that doesn't qualify her for evil, just self-centred.
 
@Publicola, I have some ideas for Kalee base upgrades.

- Weapons factory. High demand. Military.
- Armour factory. High demand. Military.
- War vehicle factory. High demand. Military.
- Civilian droid factory. High demand due to Kaleesh desire for war - something which conflicts with a spacefaring civilisation's need for infrastructure. Droids should reduce the needed number of Kaleesh civilians and in turn drive up the number of warriors (and thus the profits of our factories). Investment.
- Abyss Watchers mercenary base. Kaleesh culture means that the Kaleesh will seek out battles and glory. Security jobs and pirate hunting is good, but straight up mercenary work is right up their alley as well. Funnel some Kaleesh into our mercenary group. The increased skill and quantity of our mercenaries will mean greater profits for us. Military.
- Sports centres. I dunno, maybe they'd be into it? Investment, or Military if we call them "cadet/warrior training areas" for tax purposes.
- Cantina franchise. Because Kaleesh probably drink too. Investment, or Military if we call them "warrior recreation halls" for tax purposes.

Whumbly said:
Objectivism (the ideology most known by playing Bioshock because the books are too dry) says that people don't give money because it's the right thing to do, we do it because it gives us this warm fuzzy feeling inside called happiness.
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That's real world moral theory. In Star Wars, if you do good things because it makes you feel good, you're still doing good things and you're still a good person.

Whumbly said:
That's called being a businesswoman. Greedy, yes? Corrupt, oh definitely? But that doesn't qualify her for evil, just self-centred.
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I argued that point because the you were falsely construing the motives of her actions to make her appear good, or at least better than she was. I wouldn't call it evil either. Also, it's not corrupt.
 
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Andres110 said:
@Publicola, I have some ideas for Kalee base upgrades.

- Weapons factory. High demand. Military.
- Armour factory. High demand. Military.
- War vehicle factory. High demand. Military.
- Civilian droid factory. High demand due to Kaleesh desire for war - something which conflicts with a spacefaring civilisation's need for infrastructure. Droids should reduce the needed number of Kaleesh civilians and in turn drive up the number of warriors (and thus the profits of our factories). Investment.
- Abyss Watchers mercenary base. Kaleesh culture means that the Kaleesh will seek out battles and glory. Security jobs and pirate hunting is good, but straight up mercenary work is right up their alley as well. Funnel in some Kaleesh into our mercenary group. The increased skill and quantity of our mercenaries will mean greater profits for us. Military.
- Sports centres. I dunno, maybe they'd be into it? Investment, or Military if we call them "cadet/warrior training areas" for tax purposes.
- Cantina franchise. Because Kaleesh probably drink too. Investment, or Military if we call them "warrior recreation halls" for tax purposes.


That's real world moral theory. In Star Wars, if you do good things because it makes you feel good, you're still doing good things and you're still a good person.


I argued that point because the you were falsely construing the motives of her actions to make her appear good, or at least better than she was. I wouldn't call it evil either. Also, it's not corrupt.
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dude, real world theory can be put into star wars.
 
its like this CIARAN IS NEITHER BLACK OR WHITE
she's grey, in starwars, the epitome of black and white thinking.
its kinda wierd and also very cool to see a bad person do good things.
 
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