Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Eh, that's kind of the sunk cost fallacy in reverse. Sure, if we end up getting both in quick succession it was stupid not to get ASA first. But as we've already lost the chance to do that, it now ceases to matter. If people think we're better off with both arts (and I certainly do, and intend to actively vote for plans that work towards ASA) the fact that it's been rendered non-optimally efficient is no reason not to get it.
You are correct. However, I voted for FSA with the understanding that it was my best bet at not getting us ASA+FSA together, and I'm going to fight to back that decision.

Fuck no. We're getting it next week. We already wasted 13 dice for nothing. Whether we wait or not, it's a sunk cost already, and there's nothing that we can't push off for it. We can really only train in the Archery art once a week before it's inefficient anyway and we don't want to train it too fast because every time we do before we secure the meadow, we're missing out on qi successes from it. We might as well train 2 at the same time. All we need is to keep upping spiritual - probably done by Week 20-21 at the latest - then switch to physical.
I see. So your proposal is to slow down on training physical cultivation so we have time to train extra arts. Hmm. I expressed that option myself earlier and IIRC I got solely negative responses.

But hey. Just as long as we are clear that we are taking that extra cultivation art action instead of a spiritual/physical cultivation action, I'd likely be willing to back off on this just to see you pull off convincing the thread to be okay with that.
 
I really wish people would cool it with Maximum Dice Efficiency. Not even relating to this recent decision, just in general as if 'but twelve dice' or 'but five dice' is the be-all end-all. Yes, it's a factor to consider, but still...

We do want to make efficient choices if possible, but what's efficient isn't always what's effective.
 
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I see. So your proposal is to slow down on training physical cultivation so we have time to train extra arts. Hmm. I expressed that option myself earlier and IIRC I got solely negative responses.

Probably because you said stuff like let's stop doing base cultivation altogether once you reach Mid-Yellow, which is, of course, going to get the thread in a tizzy. It was a bad argument because you should be doing some sort of base cultivation every week, but the thread has been perfectly willing to drop some of the base cultivation at certain times to move toward a goal it considered important. The key is "at times" rather than "all the time."

Mid-Yellow is going to be done in 2-3 weeks, but in practice, the cultivation actions will stabilize mainly after Week 19 because the only thing it'll need is an arm or lung meridian open in Week 20, depending on what was opened in Week 19.
 
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After this week, it should take three more actions in order to get to Mid-yellow. (full actions). Just to give some hard numbers on what we need to do to get to mid yellow.
 
True enough, I tried to keep a lid on things myself, cutting out of the main argument (Admittedly, I was still drawn in a few times despite this though) when I was getting a bit heated.

What it comes down to is that build votes are the fucking worst. Dragging out the worst attitude in everyone. I'm not really sure how to solve that though, this is a well known problem that starts cropping up when a Quest becomes popular. Eventually someone says something that ticks somebody off, and they retaliate, which ticks somebody else off, and eventually you have a saltfest.

I'm not really sure what solutions exist to stave this off though, since it's kind of a fundamental problem that exists when you're dealing with crowds of people on the internet, eventually somebody loses their temper and it starts to snowball.

A big contributor is probably "insufficient information". For example, the back-and-forth between Arkeus and I over "how many meridians will Ling Qi get, and how many will her arts require"; I found myself drawn into that without really realizing it, to be honest. Another is the struggle over "what will be useful in the future", which isn't solvable without prescience. And, of course, arguing over what path the character should take. A close vote (like this one was, constantly) also pushes people to try and marshal whatever arguments they can to sway one more person - while a less-close one leads to people finding 'silver linings' or giving up. And then, of course, when people see arguments from "the other side" that they think are unfair, they get driven to correct (and perhaps over-correct, leading to a spiral). And you get lingering grudges that stick around from previous arguments too.

For this one, at a certain point people started saying "well, if we're only going to get one, then it's gotta be X/Y", which started a bit of a panic - it turned from "let's get X/Y first" to "we'll never get X/Y if we don't get it now!". Add to the "unfair argument" spiral and the close vote, and people started getting more and more desperate. Hell, I was feeling desperate, and to be honest, my preference between the two was fairly mild and I intended (and still intend) to strongly push for a second 'arm' art fairly soon.

You are correct. However, I voted for FSA with the understanding that it was my best bet at not getting us ASA+FSA together, and I'm going to fight to back that decision.

... and that's the kind of statement that triggered the desperation, and leads to lingering grudges for the next time there's a close debate. It easily gets interpreted as "I'm choosing this other thing simply because I think it'll lead to you not getting something you want." So now a bunch of the people who want a second 'arm' art are going to look at your future plans and future arguments with suspicion - "is he doing this simply to make it less likely for Ling Qi to get a second Arm-based art, rather than because he thinks its the best choice?"
 
Personally, I read maybe, ten posts relating to the discussion and avoided all of it until I voted to help break ties, based on what I was feeling from the original art post.

That being said, I would be cool with either, but picked the one I liked better~
 
... and that's the kind of statement that triggered the desperation, and leads to lingering grudges for the next time there's a close debate. It easily gets interpreted as "I'm choosing this other thing simply because I think it'll lead to you not getting something you want."
That is a really adversarial reading of my statement. How do you go "I voted for X in the hopes of avoiding X+Y, and stand by that decision" translate into "I'm going to be voting against Y to spite you"?
 
That is a really adversarial reading of my statement. How do you go "I voted for X in the hopes of avoiding X+Y, and stand by that decision" translate into "I'm going to be voting against Y to spite you"?
I'm just gonna note that I definitely read the post in question as 'Aggressively Spiteful', specially when combined with the second section. The reasons why can be debated, and I highly doubt you were trying for that result, but that's the feeling I got from it.

This might be pedantic, but I dislike this dislike against efficiency as a concept. Efficiency is the capability to achieve your goals with the lowest cost and the highest gain. What differs here is the goals between voters.
Honestly personally I consider quests that descend into maximum number crunching and efficiency boring, because it usually ends up with people not voting for what they like most but what they think feeds the math the best. I can understand why people share how their systems work, but the push to 'optimize the math' that often results is annoying and unfun.

(I'm not really sure if that was agreeing with you or disagreeing, but that's my take on 'efficiency')
 
Oh hey guys Whats-

*Drowns in a tsunami of posts and salt*

Well. That's certainly a thing. I can't say I expected that to get so heated. I'll try to give more concrete info on arts in the future, but there is a limit, fleshing out four or five arts entirely for each pick would break me.

Anyway locking up. Given the sheer amount of participation I'll be taking the Beards advice. Ling Qi will find something extra useful at the archive.
Can I get the tally?

Secondly @Humbaba sorry I didn't give you more feedback times been tight. Very nice, though. Have your two points. @PrimalShadow That was amusing but a bit too short for points I think. Thank you anyway.
I refer to my original idea that we set up a Council. :V
I can wholeheartedly recommend reader mode. All the fat just melts away. So long as you're willing to give up your agency, of course :>
 
That is a really adversarial reading of my statement. How do you go "I voted for X in the hopes of avoiding X+Y, and stand by that decision" translate into "I'm going to be voting against Y to spite you"?
Probably the fact that you said "I'm going to fight to back that decision" rather than "I stand by that decision" combined with the fact that you seemed to be saying "I know my argument is based on a logical fallacy, but I don't care because I don't want us to get both FSA and ASA" with the implied statement that you would continue to use logical fallacies and other such tactics to try to convince people not to get ASA.

Or at least, that was how I read your original statement. However, I will admit that I may just be in a too argumentative mood right now.
 
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Probably because you said stuff like let's stop doing base cultivation altogether once you reach Mid-Yellow, which is, of course, going to get the thread in a tizzy. It was a bad argument because you should be doing some sort of base cultivation every week, but the thread has been perfectly willing to drop some of the base cultivation at certain times to move toward a goal it considered important. The key is "at times" rather than "all the time."

Mid-Yellow is going to be done in 2-3 weeks, but in practice, the cultivation actions will stabilize mainly after Week 19 because the only thing it'll need is an arm or lung meridian open in Week 20, depending on what was opened in Week 19.

My own view is that Ling Qi *should* slow down. She's been pushing base cultivation and rising up to the top slots... and doesn't have the support behind it to deal with conflicts with peers. The primary thing other movers and shakers will look at when evaluating her is going to be her cultivation - and they'll expect everything else to match up. Look at how Han Jian assumed that Ling Qi knew more than she actually did, or consider her relative combat prowess when fighting beside Gu Xiulan, at about equal cultivation. If she fights those 'beneath' her cultivation, unless they've got significant numbers, she's expected to win - and win handily. If she fights those on her level, she's expected to at least make a good showing of herself. Those at her cultivation level are going to challenge her, perhaps try and remove her as a threat. Those above her cultivation level won't take her as a serious opponent and are unlikely to do more than sideways schemes against her... unless, of course, they think she's about to reach their level and may surpass them.

Bai Meizhen is, admittedly, at peak Yellow. However, her statements suggest she thinks Ling Qi is quite behind where she should be, in spite of the latter's rapid cultivation speed. The threats to Ling Qi are going to be at about her cultivation level more often than not* - if she's weak for her cultivation level, then she'll suffer for it. Moreover, her fast rise makes her a more urgent threat to those like Kang Zihao. Her hitting mid-Yellow/mid-Silver is going to probably lead to some moderately drastic action (ambushing her during missions, attempting to lure people into attacking her, trying to frame her for breaking Lady Cai's rules); her hitting either late-Yellow or late-Silver within a couple months will probably spark a last-ditch effort to halt her progress.

She needs more attributes and skill progression. She needs more progress in combat arts. She needs a spirit beast. She needs to push EPC up to soft-cap. She needs improvement in areas that are far harder for her potential threats to evaluate, and which give her broader capability than "more successes in combat". It's tempting to try and push for the more dice higher cultivation levels provide, but that just leads to an endless cycle of focusing entirely on Spirit and Physique - because there's *always* going to be a higher cultivation level to go for.

I would strongly suggest that she hit mid-Yellow... and then either spend a single action a week on spirit or physique or rely on overflow or bonus progress from drugs for a while. Spend a month or two opening meridians, soft-capping her combat arts and pushing EPC as far as it can go. As she runs low on things to work on, she switches back to pushing Physique and Spirit to late realm. On hitting late realm, an even mixture of base cultivation and arts will probably be just fine, and then she can fill out all her preparation for breakthrough and start accumulating arts until she's out of meridians to fill and qi until she's satisfied.

And then break through to Green and Bronze within a couple weeks of each other with a strong stable base to support her cultivation.

* This is a significant trope seen in xianxia. To a greater or lesser extent, threats scale to the "cultivation level", and the protagonist often only wins because their combat capability is abnormally high for said cultivation level. While this is narratively driven for the most part, it's actually often literally encoded into the social rules of the setting.

You have the "junior generation" and the "senior generation", with proper competitions held between those of the same generation. You have actual restrictions on competitions and mystical sites based on either age or cultivation realm. You have social mockery for someone of a higher cultivation level challenging someone of a lower cultivation level.

EDIT: Ling Qi's able to get away with being a bit of a "paper tiger" due to her only recently rising into Silver and Yellow, the 'stability' enforced by the #1 powerhouse, her strong alliance with the #3 and because most of those in the "small pond" at or above her cultivation level are neutral or favorable towards her.

That will likely change. Kang Zihao will probably find some way to bring to her a fight - either a hidden ambush or setting up an attempted "righteous challenge". If her cultivation reaches his, he'll likely think it acceptable to just issue a public challenge under the guise of "exchanging pointers". Before that happens, she should be able to take him - and he's almost certainly got a strong advantage in mastery of arts and skills over her at present.
 
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I'm just gonna note that I definitely read the post in question as 'Aggressively Spiteful', specially when combined with the second section. The reasons why can be debated, and I highly doubt you were trying for that result, but that's the feeling I got from it.

Probably the fact that you said "I'm going to fight to back that decision" rather than "I stand by that decision" combined with the fact that you essentially said "I know my argument is based on a logical fallacy, but I don't care because I don't want us to get both FSA and ASA" with the implied statement that you would continue to use logical fallacies and other such tactics to try to convince people not to get ASA.

I know (or was somewhat sure - it was a bit aggressive) you didn't mean it like that - but my point is that that kind of statement, dropped in the middle of a tense and close vote, is going to cause people to start panicking and interpret it as adversarial. I know I interpreted similar statements in that way when things started to heat up.
Alright. Since apparently other people share this sort of reading of my statement, I'll walk it back. So instead, here is a longer and perhaps less emotionally-loaded statement on the subject.



I made a call earlier that I would rather have FSA rather than AMA+FSA, based on what I then thought was reasonable arguments. As far as I can tell those arguments are free of fallacies, and I'll share them here in a bit.

Now that the die is cast and we have FSA, I stand by my earlier decision, and my logical reasons for doing thus haven't changed.


I admit that while the choice between ASA+FSA and FSA+ASA favors ASA+FSA by a significant number of dice, that choice isn't one we actually have available - and therefore, not really in the scope of the argument. I accept the rebuke that it is the sunk-cost fallacy and shouldn't be used to back up my statements when arguing to others.
 
Upon further reflection. I am definitely feeling too argumentative right now. While I do not regret coming back after the first time I thought I should leave the thread I really should take a break and cool off now. Also I should probably sleep but I don't have much hope that that will happen soon.

@PrimalShadow I apologize for basically stating that you were arguing in bad faith and would continue to do so.

*Re-lurks*
Edit: *Un-relurks*
Alright. Since apparently other people share this sort of reading of my statement, I'll walk it back. So instead, here is a longer and perhaps less emotionally-loaded statement on the subject.



I made a call earlier that I would rather have FSA rather than AMA+FSA, based on what I then thought was reasonable arguments. As far as I can tell those arguments are free of fallacies, and I'll share them here in a bit.

Now that the die is cast and we have FSA, I stand by my earlier decision, and my logical reasons for doing thus haven't changed.


I admit that while the choice between ASA+FSA and FSA+ASA favors ASA+FSA by a significant number of dice, that choice isn't one we actually have available - and therefore, not really in the scope of the argument. I accept the rebuke that it is the sunk-cost fallacy and shouldn't be used to back up my statements when arguing to others.

I look forward to reading your arguments though I will likely not be commenting on them.
*Re-re-lurks*
 
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(I'm not really sure if that was agreeing with you or disagreeing, but that's my take on 'efficiency')
I think it's support?
would strongly suggest that she hit mid-Yellow...
Wouldn't it be better to hit late first, and then focus on arts, meridians and ki? This ensures maximum bonuses, and doesn't cause us to stall when an art requires higher cultivation. This lets us slowly tick to peak through overflows and rush through everything we need faster.
 
On that note, here is my comprehensive list of why getting ASA right this moment is a bad idea.

(1) Time constraints. We typically have 5 major actions a week. I think there is broad consensus for spending one of the actions on EPC, one of the actions on Spiritual, and one of the actions on Physical cultivation; the first we do indefinitely, the second until Mid-Yellow at least and the last we do until Mid-Silver. There is some debate about whether we should continue to cultivate Spiritual to late-Yellow immediately or if we can afford to delay it for other actions - but the fact that we want to get Mid-Yellow ASAP seems mostly uncontroversial so we will want to be doing these actions for at least a couple weeks. That takes us 3 of our 5 major actions, leaving 2. Those two actions entail any and all other things we want to do, including opening meridians and learning arts, cultivating any of our current arts, and going on missions. If we want to take an average of one mission each week to get sect points and pay for pills, that only leaves an average of 1 slot a turn. Given that we need to open meridians, that is not even sufficient to cultivate one art at full speed, much less two.

(2) AMA may prove to be somewhat redundant with FVM. As I understand it, it is considered probably in the thread that our next level of FVM will come with a direct attack art that doesn't stop us from playing. Such an art would be largely redundant with AMA.

(3) AMA and FSA don't buff each other. FSA will almost certainly give passive bonuses to archery and the like, which AMA will not benefit from at all. Similarly, whatever passive buffs AMA grants, I doubt FSA will benefit from them.

(4) We can probably get a better 2nd floor art. The fact of the matter is, 2nd floor arts are supposed to be strictly superior to 1st floor arts. Given the choice, rather take the time to train a 2nd floor art than a 1st floor art - and I think we have a choice here. Hell, I'm pretty sure we could specify that we want an art like ASA and get it, or possibly get ASA's more full version if such a thing exists. Now, some people are going to suggest that it is better to get a 1st floor art and upgrade - but we have no indication that most 1st floor arts are upgradable. If we want to go with the upgrade route, our best bet may be to pick the 2nd floor art and then see what upgrades into it - and then work based off of that. This is a chance we certainly have, given that our archive pass lets us get 1st floor arts for free.


If someone can address these points to my satisfaction - in particular, the first and the last - I would be willing to withdraw my opposition to getting AM in the next couple of weeks.
 
I think it's support?

Wouldn't it be better to hit late first, and then focus on arts, meridians and ki? This ensures maximum bonuses, and doesn't cause us to stall when an art requires higher cultivation. This lets us slowly tick to peak through overflows and rush through everything we need faster.

He just said that hitting maximum bonuses makes Ling Qi 'fair game.' Just as Meizhen was and still is fair game for Sun Liling, Ling Qi getting to Late Yellow puts her on the same tier with the same sort of expectations. As it is, his argument is that Ling Qi is a paper tiger because not even the most optimistic of us here thinks that Ling Qi is at Meizhen or Sun Liling's level of competence (in fighting).

I mean, you may disagree with his analysis but you just ... ignored it?
 
I think it's support?

Wouldn't it be better to hit late first, and then focus on arts, meridians and ki? This ensures maximum bonuses, and doesn't cause us to stall when an art requires higher cultivation. This lets us slowly tick to peak through overflows and rush through everything we need faster.

I honestly think this is something we should ask han, gu and possibly bai on.

While we should always want to grow stronger in our cultivation does that mean we should push back our other arts fundamentals to do it. At least until later on were we get bonuses to training them etc.

Both arguments can be made aa well as several good points so it's one of those iffy things,

Some will say that by getting into the big leagues we invite disaster from those who see our cultivation level and believe us to be "fair game now"

Others will say that we would have been attacked anyway and it would be better off to be late yellow,silver then not.

Again it's an iffy subject and one I think we as players need to ask some of our friends who have more experience in these matters then we. At least to get a better understanding and more info and make any future votes less hostile
 
Wouldn't it be better to hit late first, and then focus on arts, meridians and ki? This ensures maximum bonuses, and doesn't cause us to stall when an art requires higher cultivation. This lets us slowly tick to peak through overflows and rush through everything we need faster.
........uh
Bai Meizhen is, admittedly, at peak Yellow. However, her statements suggest she thinks Ling Qi is quite behind where she should be, in spite of the latter's rapid cultivation speed. The threats to Ling Qi are going to be at about her cultivation level more often than not* - if she's weak for her cultivation level, then she'll suffer for it. Moreover, her fast rise makes her a more urgent threat to those like Kang Zihao. Her hitting mid-Yellow/mid-Silver is going to probably lead to some moderately drastic action (ambushing her during missions, attempting to lure people into attacking her, trying to frame her for breaking Lady Cai's rules); her hitting either late-Yellow or late-Silver within a couple months will probably spark a last-ditch effort to halt her progress.
 
On that note, here is my comprehensive list of why getting ASA right this moment is a bad idea.

(1) Time constraints.
(2) AMA may prove to be somewhat redundant with FVM.
(3) AMA and FSA don't buff each other.
(4) We can probably get a better 2nd floor art.

We need to stop mastering arts. Bai has 4 arts she trains fully, and 4 others she has a few levels in, which seems like a pretty decent breakdown given training time. Every time Yrs shows us something, people jump on the shiny and decide to devote a lot of time into it. In practice, having several 1 meridian arts with good passives is likely better than investing in arts up to 4 meridians if those arts aren't going to be useful in combat. Because we don't need to train everything, because we can't train everything, we should train those things most synergistic. This connects both points 1 and 2. If the art doesn't prove redundant, the means of using constructs with FVM is a straight up buff that is highly synergistic with our best offensive art. If it does prove contradictory, we can stop training it after one action, net a number of neat passives which may include some defensive bonuses (such as the ability to breathe ash) and not put ourselves at a loss.

As for points 3 and 4, they're contradictory. We don't need to build things around synergy with FSA, we need to build around synergy with FVM. FSA is a holdout we're barely going to use that provides decent utility if FVM doesn't work or we absolutely need burst damage. Notably, it wouldn't, looking at the description, likely have actually helped us much in any actual fight we've had. Moreover, FSA is a first story art. It's not going to be great or worth building around in the long term. FSA also has pretty bad synergy with FVM for the moment, needing us to drop our very good art's buffs to take shots at someone, shots we probably can't land without our very good art's buffs. As for better arts, we'll always be able to get better arts. When we have second floor arts, we'll be looking to third floor arts. On the third floor, we'll look to the inner sect. AS, by contrast, is compatible with FVM, making it exceedingly useful if the arts don't prove too redundant. If they are redundant, we can stop training AS and move on to something else, keeping the passives and swapping it in and out as necessary.

The extension of this is, again, we need to change the way we look at arts. Pick for maximum synergy (such as the ability to use FSA without dropping FVM) and only really build around our definite keepers, be willing and eager to train arts for a level and then ignore them for the foreseeable future. First story stuff is, ultimately, not that important. We don't need to train all six levels of things, and, as this means they're harder to fit on the meridians we have and passives seem to stack better at low levels in our admittedly small sample, there's highly compelling reasons not to keep training things to the point where they consume additional meridians.

Since this decreases the time lost on AS if it's somewhat redundant early on, the opportunity cost is fairly low, and if it isn't redundant or as lacking in damage as people hypothesize, it's hands down better for our current build than FSA, and more worthy of future training time.

Granted, if we're going back to the hall next week, I'd much rather look for a buffing art or a music art than more arms.

With low ranking wind support arts, we can quite conceivably get two levels in the first training action, giving us a host of passive benefits (and not paying to have more dice is amazing) and a strong variety of options, variety was the big justification people gave for wanting damage.
 
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Personally I am A-OK with having more things 'available' to us then we have time to properly train them all. All that means is that once we do finish up something, we'll already have something else available to focus on in the future. Especially in the future where we'll need to serve in the army for a while, and might not have access to a nice library to get new shiny techniques and such from, or such events. Having a 'Backlog' available to us means we'll always have something to work on.
 
*sigh* I voted for ASA this turn, and I would certainly have voted for FSA next week, but now that FSA has won, my motivation for getting ASA has waned. I wanted it this week coz it was cool, and we could learn it straight away, and dice efficiency. Now we've got FSA though... It's just not as urgent or important to get ASA next week like it would have been urgent to get FSA next week.
 
Again I'm going to push to spend points on the personal tutor for a week from an older (most likely green or bronze or both) senpai.

Part of the reason things get toxic in the thread so much is because much of what people are arguing about isn't fact but theories or beliefs of what so and so does or will do.

Having more knowledge on the setting, or advice or tips will really help cool down the pressure valve that is the thread. Help us vote in better faith and plan ahead while making both efficient AND fun decisions .

An older student would know about spirits , combat, and training arts etc there's a reason why it cost so many points. Obviously if we can gain a elder for a month like bai did that would be fucking amazing but I doubt we'll get that lucky any time soon.
 
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