Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
Grosstoad
Birdbrain - Dick - Rules-Lawyer - Creeper
. . . Now I am thinking of that funny Viera!Cloud FF7 VRMMORPG AU fanfic.
- Location
- USA
I am hoping it gives out stuff we won't sell. like a cultivation hotspot good for things, or some secret arts
oooh! If we are really really lucky it gives out Argent Genesis art! After all, it's a test requiring us to be yellow. mid yellow is the ideal time to start argent genesis
This is part of my concern though. A lot of the things that people want to pin down are specific mechanical numbers - and I'm not sure how much Meizhen can tell us about those.
Like, maybe people have worked out a nice tidy table of "for good foundation, achieve x at y", but if they had, then I'd have expected us to be told that kind of thing in our lessons. I imagine that things are likely much vaguer.
Of course, that's true for most weapons, and likely many direct attack arts (e.g. throw fireball).
That's why flying blades would be so good - if we can throw blades at people without using our hands, then life gets much better for us.
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TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Why would you expect that? Meridians aren't out of universe abstractions - each one you open represents and inner gate you've actually opened and can now use to express an art with.
No one told us we needed to open at least five.
It might be less exact, but pushing the bounds of the Qi Argent Soul 4 can support would earn us the Qi bonus at breakthrough.
No one told us.
This is all stuff that the noble families know and you need to work out or bargain for or steal and just be so hard working you hit anyways if you want to match them. The world is not fair. Most of students around us will settle into mediocrity.
It's another test.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Pretty much what @TheLastOne said. It was hinted and alluded to, and we asked Elder Su about some of it (AS4), but while we were told things like "congrats on mastering those arts it has improved your foundation" a lot of basic knowledge are things we lack.
Now, there is an argument to be made for getting an ability that can bypass armour or bypass qi-protection. @Shadell made a great post on how we can put aside 5 or so meridians for techniques we purposefully keep at 1-meridian levels so we can have great versatility. When it comes down to it it though, we don't need to do damage to win, and them spending Qi to counter damage we do is actually good for us.
Also, MotV lasts for turn after we stop playing, and we can just pick it up again three turns later, no loss.
Weapons we looted/sold can do much more damage if we get the best out of them, sure, but Disonnance still does damage, and if you say "dropping FVM is unacceptable" then this applies to those weapons too, not just the knives. I mean, the knives can do up to 5 damage. We... aren't going to win a clash by 5 a lot. That's much, much, much more than necessary.
Now, there is an argument to be made for getting an ability that can bypass armour or bypass qi-protection. @Shadell made a great post on how we can put aside 5 or so meridians for techniques we purposefully keep at 1-meridian levels so we can have great versatility. When it comes down to it it though, we don't need to do damage to win, and them spending Qi to counter damage we do is actually good for us.
Also, MotV lasts for turn after we stop playing, and we can just pick it up again three turns later, no loss.
Certainly, meridians are something she might have more concrete info on. But then again, how would anyone know?
Consider that "strength" and "health levels" and all the other things we can see the dice for are difficult to measure in universe. Meridians are one of the few things you can simply count. What people will see is, by and large, that fools who rush through things only focussing on breakthroughs and not on being well rounded end up weaker, and that people who work hard and make sure they are good at everything end up stronger. And the people who are patient and disciplined and well-rounded are likely to be "better" for a whole host of reasons other than breakthrough bonuses.
More importantly, how would they find where the "bonus point" is? How would they even know whether or not it had been achieved?
Say you have two people who have broken through to silver. One has 4 meridians, and one has 5 (both, you'll note, significantly fewer than us). Apart from this, they have different arts, different stats, and different skills. Will the one with only 4 be clearly weaker than the other? Will you be able to tell?
Seriously, any test would be incredibly noisy giving the number of variables involved. Trying to run a useful study on the subject would be extremely difficult - and I seriously doubt anyone would have actually known how to do one properly.
And then there's Qi. Is that even something that can be clearly measured? Are "40 units of Qi" a thing in-universe?
Edit:
Ok, I agree that there is probably useful general knowledge there - along the lines of "what people generally consider to be a solid foundation". I just don't think she can be to specific about breakpoints and things.
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Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Yes you would be able to tell. Keep in mind that Bai Meizhen was able to tell whenever we had small increase in spiritual cultivation, and Elder Su for meridians, cultivation, Argent Soul, Qi and Arts. Just by looking at us.
She has seen hundreds of disciple go from red to yellow with different amounts of meridians. She knows that 5 meridians is the breakpoint where someone gets a significantly better breakthrough to silver, and knows mastering arts improve it, and so on. That's also dismissing the weight of history and things becoming known and tested over time.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
They would know because they have theory, they've been doing it for a really long time with good records, and they've developed arts whose whole point is to help with growth?
Like -
Yeah, they know.
Trade-offs. She feels the benefit she gets from hitting green now outweighs the benefit from learning Argent Genesis first, or the risk of now having Green now. But her calculations aren't automatically ours. They should inform ours, but she isn't us.
- Location
- USA
Which is why I was explicitly against keeping those weapons and why I am explicitly for getting a damage dealing combat art that can more than 0 damage to an armored opponent.
The ability to win with a poorly designed combat suite is not the same as having a well designed combat suite. Your argument is that being unable to do damage is superior and we should get only support abilities forever because it's the only thing we will ever need.
I disagree. And thus my argument is that your plan is sub par. we should have 1 direct damage dealing art. Ideally a sonic one for synergy or wind for the bonuses. 1 movement art. and many support arts.
Having 7 instead of 8 support arts will not cripple our support abilities. Having 0 instead of 1 damage arts is hurting our combat ability.
She has her family secret arts though. And she needs that strength soon.
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- Location
- his hidden lair
I'm actually really hoping for a Lung/Arm/possibly spine(if it modifies our shadow) art based on weaponized shadow constructs. Sortof like how Sun Liling uses her blood.
It would be another Darkness art, would probably synergize with our ability to generate low light and shadows, be awesomely thematic, and potentially useful in close quarters or at range.
Presumably we could also do it while still playing on our flute too.
It would be another Darkness art, would probably synergize with our ability to generate low light and shadows, be awesomely thematic, and potentially useful in close quarters or at range.
Presumably we could also do it while still playing on our flute too.
I'm probably bringing too much of the real world into what is, at the end of the day, a simplified mechanical system, but I will say that if measuring things accurately - especially things involving people - was that simple, then research would be a lot easier. And statistics would be a lot less complicated.
You're probably probably right in the context of the quest.
[X] Meizhen's thoughts on cultivation goals for the second realm
On Arts to pick up, some points I'm not sure if have been addressed before:
-Is there any reason why we couldn't get a kicking based art? It seems the obvious solution if our hands are occupied with a flute or instrument, since we can still kick. Weapons aren't too difficult either. Bladed shoes are a thing, as are metal shod boots.
-For DPS art, I believe we're best served getting a defense nullifying/penetrating art. Ling Qi is built completely wrong for overwhelming hard defenses with dakka, as those require large weapons, high strength, or Yang style effects, but ignoring defenses to hurt the enemy fits easily.
-Element wise
--Is the element being Yin inclined actually important to us? Theres playing to our advantages, but as far as I can tell there's no drawbacks to having a little Yang mixed in on one of our secondary Arts, and Yang stuff is what you are looking for if you want some direct combat abilities.
---This is important, because a mono-Yin practitioner can generally be countered by forcing them into a straight fight, just as you can screw a mono-Yang practitioner by luring them and exhausting them without ever engaging. If you are looking for a DPS art Yang is always easier to find. If looking for affinity, Ling Qi's slight temper problem is Yang as well.
--What does the element do to the Inner World? Currently we have a dark, windy and wet inner space.
---Metal could fit right in, appealing substantially to the more savage and martial spirits by adding steel accents to the mountain on the misty valley. It's Yin/Yang neutral, being one or the other depending on context.
---Wood could fit right in, adding beauty of flowers and vines to the mystery of the mists, appealing to more nature-spirit types(i.e. bunny). It's Yang oriented, but Wood is also the element that binds Wind, Water and Earth, so it's not going to conflict per se.
---Heaven is heavily Yang, but you also cannot have the Moon without the Light in the Sky. It illuminates the misty valley from above, but the light casts long and more confusing shadows than darkness.
---Fire leans Yang, but as a destructive force it's also part Yin, while serving the same effect as Heaven - casting shadows through the mists. In practical terms it might conflict a bit with the water element however, burning the mist clear.
--Etc, basically, no need to specify element or Yin/Yang nature. We just look for cool shit. Somewhat favoring a Head/Spine/Something Heaven art though.
-Meridian wise...do we have a post listing what meridians do what?
On Arts to pick up, some points I'm not sure if have been addressed before:
-Is there any reason why we couldn't get a kicking based art? It seems the obvious solution if our hands are occupied with a flute or instrument, since we can still kick. Weapons aren't too difficult either. Bladed shoes are a thing, as are metal shod boots.
-For DPS art, I believe we're best served getting a defense nullifying/penetrating art. Ling Qi is built completely wrong for overwhelming hard defenses with dakka, as those require large weapons, high strength, or Yang style effects, but ignoring defenses to hurt the enemy fits easily.
-Element wise
--Is the element being Yin inclined actually important to us? Theres playing to our advantages, but as far as I can tell there's no drawbacks to having a little Yang mixed in on one of our secondary Arts, and Yang stuff is what you are looking for if you want some direct combat abilities.
---This is important, because a mono-Yin practitioner can generally be countered by forcing them into a straight fight, just as you can screw a mono-Yang practitioner by luring them and exhausting them without ever engaging. If you are looking for a DPS art Yang is always easier to find. If looking for affinity, Ling Qi's slight temper problem is Yang as well.
--What does the element do to the Inner World? Currently we have a dark, windy and wet inner space.
---Metal could fit right in, appealing substantially to the more savage and martial spirits by adding steel accents to the mountain on the misty valley. It's Yin/Yang neutral, being one or the other depending on context.
---Wood could fit right in, adding beauty of flowers and vines to the mystery of the mists, appealing to more nature-spirit types(i.e. bunny). It's Yang oriented, but Wood is also the element that binds Wind, Water and Earth, so it's not going to conflict per se.
---Heaven is heavily Yang, but you also cannot have the Moon without the Light in the Sky. It illuminates the misty valley from above, but the light casts long and more confusing shadows than darkness.
---Fire leans Yang, but as a destructive force it's also part Yin, while serving the same effect as Heaven - casting shadows through the mists. In practical terms it might conflict a bit with the water element however, burning the mist clear.
--Etc, basically, no need to specify element or Yin/Yang nature. We just look for cool shit. Somewhat favoring a Head/Spine/Something Heaven art though.
-Meridian wise...do we have a post listing what meridians do what?
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
We can't pick a kicking art for the same reason we can't pick an art that shoots kittens that have laser eyes, and the lasers shoot dragons, who breath fire, and the fire is made up of more laser eyed kittens.
We don't get to pick that. We get to pick two things. Meridian. Element.
Everything beyond that is wishful and we can't make plans for it.
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I know that's a reference to something, but I can't remember what for the life of me.
Ah okay...people were talking about weapons like we had a choice...
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Yes, they were, but we don't. It was one of the arguments against the sabers way back when, and why I dropped them. With very specific skills and no ability to guide what weapon arts are available, we have to choose our weapons to match our arts, rather then the other way around.
Looking back on my post about 2 arts you are right, two simultaneous combat arts would be overkill and not worth doing. For some reason when I posted this I was actually thinking of 2 moves within an art. My mistake. Over the long term I expect we will eventually get something that builds on whatever combat art we end up picking up the same way we will our wind aura, but that is a much longer time frame and not really what I was going for.
Grosstoad
Birdbrain - Dick - Rules-Lawyer - Creeper
Hmm, I remember @yrsillar mentioning something like this in response to someone making a plan that has a vote for checking the archive for Art... Was that you @Arkeus?
Anyone remember what page that was?
Also, a single Art can have many different moves (ZB max has 3, SCS 2 has 2, FVM 3 has 4), and a move can grow or improve a prior move (FVM's later stage moves building on the MotV). Since we don't have pure Arm Art, and we haven't actually asked Xiulan about her own fire Art, we're not too sure if such a Blast-heavy Art would only cover attack moves, or if they have moves that builds up said attack(s).
Haven't quite caught up with the discussion but I think the Spirits vote or the cultivation goals are the best votes.
Spirits has potentially immediate utility, and will be useful if we encounter something in this dungeon we have to bind. It's also good for getting us up and running for general sect missions and exploing. It's less good if we don't think they'll be any spirits in the dungeon and we intend to do the Han Jian action next week. My guess would be that Meizhen might be better at explaining the binding of higher grade spirits or how to go about improving an existing spirit, wheras Han Jian would be better to talk to about binding and working with a spirit who doesn't particularly like you.
The cultivation goals question is good, but does not really need to be done at this time, as we're far from being close to breakthrough. We have a fairly immediate plan for the future, so I think this can be put off for a few weeks. I'd also encourage people to remember that Meizhen's advice may well have its own flaws and not to treat it as gospel. For example we know she didn't get all the benefits of Argent Soul as she was already a late yellow cultivator when she came her. Her advanced state of cultivation could easily lead to blindspots.
[] Their opinions on the competition for the inner sect - This is good, but again is not something we need to know right now, although we should ask relatively soon.
[] Imperial politics and recent history in general Again an important topic, giving us insight into the power blocs that are forming and why. Good for ensuring we don't have a repeat of Forging where we tried to get two avowed enemies to be roommates. I'd put his above the competition vote for now.
I'm going to vote for spirits for the potential short term utility.
[X] Buy Nothing.
[X] The finer details of spirits and binding
Spirits has potentially immediate utility, and will be useful if we encounter something in this dungeon we have to bind. It's also good for getting us up and running for general sect missions and exploing. It's less good if we don't think they'll be any spirits in the dungeon and we intend to do the Han Jian action next week. My guess would be that Meizhen might be better at explaining the binding of higher grade spirits or how to go about improving an existing spirit, wheras Han Jian would be better to talk to about binding and working with a spirit who doesn't particularly like you.
The cultivation goals question is good, but does not really need to be done at this time, as we're far from being close to breakthrough. We have a fairly immediate plan for the future, so I think this can be put off for a few weeks. I'd also encourage people to remember that Meizhen's advice may well have its own flaws and not to treat it as gospel. For example we know she didn't get all the benefits of Argent Soul as she was already a late yellow cultivator when she came her. Her advanced state of cultivation could easily lead to blindspots.
[] Their opinions on the competition for the inner sect - This is good, but again is not something we need to know right now, although we should ask relatively soon.
[] Imperial politics and recent history in general Again an important topic, giving us insight into the power blocs that are forming and why. Good for ensuring we don't have a repeat of Forging where we tried to get two avowed enemies to be roommates. I'd put his above the competition vote for now.
I'm going to vote for spirits for the potential short term utility.
[X] Buy Nothing.
[X] The finer details of spirits and binding
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