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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Erebeal said:
SCS already has its hands full training dodge and stealth.


Erk. I don't like this. This is going to cause problems. Like, Dance is clashing with Dodge. There's no good reason to consider Dance a derived subskill that should have a special advantage there. Well, not unless you also intend to consider "Dodge" a derived subskill of "Defense" and "Swords" a derived subskill of "Melee". Otherwise it's just creating these bizarre asymmetries where some skills are getting super special subskills because of design oversights in the original skill list.

If you want to run a system like this you need to have all the comparable skills starting from the same point. Otherwise you just end up with some skills getting subskills really easily because they were really broad and have obvious focuses, while other ones were already fairly specific and thus can't find subskills easily.
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I think the problem there is that its an intersection of Expression, a Skill, and Dodge a Combat Mastery. Everything that is too broad in your implication is a Skill, whereas everything that is too narrow is a Mastery.

E: Which makes me think that Mastery's should be removed, and replaced with more generalized fighting skills, that then use the Focused Skill system to break down into what we right now consider Mastery's. That way Dodge and Dance are on equal footing so to speak. I mean, in the original system that was what Mastery's basically did.
 
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BungieONI said:
I think the problem there is that its an intersection of Expression, a Skill, and Dodge a Combat Mastery. Everything that is too broad in your implication is a Skill, whereas everything that is too narrow is a Mastery.
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Yes, and we use Expression as a combat mastery. This is what causes the problem. The system was never designed for that. It was designed for Expression to be a bit of character flavor on the side.

If this had been acknowledged and music had been treated the same as other combat masteries all along, then we would have been training Woodwind for 80% of our run, and then started learning Vocals when Zeqing started teaching us, and Dance when we started training PLR.

Edit:
I don't think the idea of the specialisation system is bad. It's just that right now I feel that it's being conflated with a system patch that doesn't need to be anything more than that.
 
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Erebeal said:
Yes, and we use Expression as a combat mastery. This is what causes the problem. The system was never designed for that. It was designed for Expression to be a bit of character flavor on the side.

If this had been acknowledged and music had been treated the same as other combat masteries all along, then we would have been training Woodwind for 80% of our run, and then started learning Vocals when Zeqing started teaching us, and Dance when we started training PLR.
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The obvious solution to me is to have a handful of broad combat skills, and then those break down into the Masteries other people have been using. At which point Expression and these broad combat skills(I'm not saying just "melee" because that's too broad) are on the same "level" of focus, along with everything else that derives from them.

So, what do you see as an issue with that, if any?
 
Erebeal said:
Erk. I don't like this. This is going to cause problems. Like, Dance is clashing with Dodge. There's no good reason to consider Dance a derived subskill that should have a special advantage there. Well, not unless you also intend to consider "Dodge" a derived subskill of "Defense" and "Swords" a derived subskill of "Melee". Otherwise it's just creating these bizarre asymmetries where some skills are getting super special subskills because of design oversights in the original skill list.

If you want to run a system like this you need to have all the comparable skills starting from the same point. Otherwise you just end up with some skills getting subskills really easily because they were really broad and have obvious focuses, while other ones were already fairly specific and thus can't find subskills easily.
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I mean... I'm not the one running the system. I'm just calling it as I see it, and with the advantage dance has because it is a derived skill, PLR should be able to hit better than if we were using the old system.
 
BungieONI said:
So, what do you see as an issue with that, if any?
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Well, that's also an option. The main problem I'd see with that is that changing everything else to fit Expression is more complicated than just fixing Expression - which just requires saying: Patch 2.1: Expression is now multiple individual masteries for different instruments to be consistent with other weapon masteries.
 
Erebeal said:
Well, that's also an option. The main problem I'd see with that is that changing everything else to fit Expression is more complicated than just fixing Expression - which just requires saying: Patch 2.1: Expression is now multiple individual masteries for different instruments to be consistent with other weapon masteries.
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Ah so there'd be a Flute Mastery and the like?

I dunno, that seems more complicated to me, because it is keeping the Skill list, and propping up the Mastery list and keeping both of these around. When you can just solve the problem by going, no more Mastery's, just Skills and their derived subskills.

E: this is related to my thinking of, "away with the old system!", and also general distaste with Storyteller skill shenanigans.
 
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BungieONI said:
Ah so there'd be a Flute Mastery and the like?

I dunno, that seems more complicated to me, because it is keeping the Skill list, and propping up the Mastery list and keeping both of these around. When you can just solve the problem by going, no more Mastery's, just Skills and their derived subskills.
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How is redesigning the whole Mastery system less complicated than just moving our music weapon skills down into the Mastery section and treating them like all the other Masteries?
 
Erebeal said:
How is redesigning the whole Mastery system less complicated than just moving our music weapon skills down into the Mastery section and treating them like all the other Masteries?
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I see it as more complicated because there are two lists, which are crossing over and intersecting. If we keep Mastery's around, I expect similar discussions frequently, and because Focused Subskills and Mastery's are basically the same thing.

Thus, to reduce overall system weight, minimize the number of lists you're trying to deal with.
 
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Dance as a form of expression for PLR's offense is somewhat of a misnomer anyway; what the art is actually doing offensively is summoning solid illusions that disorient, drain and grapple. That's more like projection or construct control. The dance thematic is in the passive defense and the ability to blend in with those illusory revelers.

More to the point, that a skill has a narrower range (e.g 'sabers' or 'urumi' vs blades, or 'offensive music' vs 'offensive expression') doesn't mean it should automatically have the mechanical and narrative superiority of a focused skill. Focus like this should at most imply a higher potential ceiling.

Narrative superiority should only apply to focused skills that became focused or underwent a change in a narratively significant fashion. The two examples I can think of are Zeqing's storm tribulation changing Ling Qi's music into one that acts beyond the level of mere sound, and Xiulan's heavenly tribulation that increased the potency of her projected fire and lightning attacks.

Edit: this should also solve the mechanical balance issue. A full rank bonus is huge when a focused skill in one's area of specialty will naturally tend to be high anyway, and this way this power is at least somewhat regulated in that it's not granted lightly.
 
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Black Noise said:
Narrative superiority should only apply to focused skills that became focused or underwent a change in a narratively significant fashion. The two examples I can think of are Zeqing's storm tribulation changing Ling Qi's music into one that acts beyond the level of mere sound, and Xiulan's heavenly tribulation that increased the potency of her projected fire and lightning attacks.
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Would the Fairy rave party also count as a tribulation of some kind?
 
BungieONI said:
I see it as more complicated because there are two lists, which are crossing over and intersecting. If we keep Mastery's around, I expect similar discussions frequently, and because Focused Subskills and Mastery's are basically the same thing.

Thus, to reduce overall system weight, minimize the number of lists you're trying to deal with.
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Mmm, fair. So more of a long term improvement rather than what's easiest now.

Black Noise said:
Narrative superiority should only apply to focused skills became focused or underwent a change in a narratively significant fashion. The two examples I can think of are Zeqing's storm tribulation changing Ling Qi's music into one that acts beyond the level of mere sound, and Xiulan's heavenly tribulation that increased the potency of her projected fire and lightning attacks.
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Yeah, that I'd agree with.
 
@yrsillar please change the "some spiritual attacks" part of the attributes. It makes it hard to know which stat works with which attack.
Unless you want to be forced to write intelligence-based spiritual attack or Presence-based spiritual attack on each and every art/skill just make a new name to separate the two categories.
"Spiritual" and "Soul" attack/skills maybe?
 
Nemonowan said:
How would YOU prefer to go into a boxing ring: with your ears plugged or blindfolded?
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The latter. When youve got superhunan senses sight is only a single, high definition cone of information. Sound and the indications of movement, balance, sense of touch, etc.

Theres a reason why blind people are perfectly capable of functioning in society.
 
Nemonowan said:
How would YOU prefer to go into a boxing ring: with your ears plugged or blindfolded?
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Ears plugged, but that's because I'm only going to have one opponent.

If I'm in an open field, I still want my eyes because I have shit combat training, thus my eyes are still disproportionately better than all my other senses. However if I was a trained martial artist out in a field, I would rather have my eyes covered. Sound conveys a lot of information, and unlike vision it is 360. I can't remember the technique, but an advance martial move is training yourself to dodge blows you can't see. The goal is to dodge only when there's an actual blow coming: moving when there isn't one is as much a failure as not moving when there is one.

So I'd choose visionover sound if I was a badass warrior in an open field where the rules of engagement are uncertain. Sure I'm depriving myself of some detail, but in a perfect world I wouldn't be handicapped at all. I'd much rather sacrifice the depth of vision over the breadth of hearing.
 
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Nemonowan said:
How would YOU prefer to go into a boxing ring: with your ears plugged or blindfolded?
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Ear plugged because using ears in combat is a bad meme. Not only are ears very very bad for depth perception but even the slightest amount of noise outside what you are trying to hear will muddle sound into a cacophony nobody can understand.

Another point is that deaf people can be significant threat in combat sport and there are top fighters that are deaf from a quick googling.

Matt Hamill - Wikipedia

The amount of blind top fighters is zero.

On the other hand super humans sense, especially cultivators senses might change the field but that depend on what kind of arts they cultivate more than anything.
 
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archangis said:
Super humans sense, especially cultivators senses might change the field but that depend on what kind of arts they cultivate more than anything.
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Keeping in mind superhuman capability on the attack as well. Most normal people attack in their visual cone because thats how the body is configured and weapons are made for, so its just a game of keeping your opponent in your cone and yourself outside theirs. Bullshittium attacks can arc around much more easily than arms
 
veekie said:
Keeping in mind superhuman capability on the attack as well. Most normal people attack in their visual cone because thats how the body is configured and weapons are made for, so its just a game of keeping your opponent in your cone and yourself outside theirs. Bullshittium attacks can arc around much more easily than arms
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It goes both way here again. Sound altering talisman or arts are a thing (Han Fang use silencing arts for exemple) after all.
 
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