Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

I don't think we even need a mercy vote for the next update, no. This is an attack against us and our friend after we're injured. We need to make an example of them, something a step further then what we did before. It's annoying, but we have to escalate.

You know, provided we win.

The whole 'even strip their clothes' things sounds appropriate, because we simply can't tolerate this happening to us, and even if this is really an attack on Meizhen, something I'm not entirely convinced about, they've claimed it was at us.

We have to go to the next level - stripping them, or breaking a few bones, or something to drive home how not ok we are with this. We would prefer people fight us in an open and honest manner (even if we aren't intending to do the same. Because hypocrisy is only bad when other people do it), and so we have to escalate.
 
I doubt it. Sun Liling might be in the army, but she is not the most likely. The most likely are in fact Han Jian's group. I mean, I get you find Sun Liling cool, but even beyond Han Jian' group there is Ji Rong that most likely will be there. Li Suyin is a possible too. Sun Liling is... less so.

You musta missed my post just above yours, so I'll just give a nod to your points and beg you not to split my post up like that again, it's not that spaghetti posting will bring down the wrath of the mods, but it is kind of annoying to have to answer point by point like that so I'll just take a respond to this one.

You're going to have to explain the Han Jian going to the battlefield with us thing though. He's an upper noble, as are, it appears, most of his peers. Unless they have a tradition of serving with the Empire for a few years (possible, Han Jian's grandfather was a general, iirc?), Li Suyin's very obvious social combat inclinations seems to suggest that they're headed back to play the game of thrones. It's possible that, like American presidents before Obama, there's a stigma associated with nobles who have never served in a military capacity (Zhou seems to disparage them quite a bit), but I don't think it's necessarily true that they're coming with us.

For Suyin... I suspect there's a medical corps and that Suyin will be a shoe in to go in that group. Given how rare healing seems to be, and how high level you need to be to do substantial healing, doctors are way too precious to waste on the battlefield. She could be with us, but not in a combat capacity unless shit had hit the fan (shit will hit the fan).

Wait ... that was a joke?

In all seriousness, our ability to help Meizhen form alliances and create a power block in the upper echelons of the class is going to heavily rely on either getting to know more people and creating additional social links or getting Meizhen to form an alliance with Han Jian and his company. Right now I'm not seeing us being able to do either, as an alliance with the Bai family is an alliance against the current regime. What we can do, is become one of the four most important people in our class by getting strong enough. If we can manage to get up to Bai Meizhen's level of power, then the political game in this class of the sect becomes a lot more interesting.

We would be the wild card without any history or strong family alliances. Which means that whichever side of the pseudo-triangle (Cai, Bai, Sun) we support will get an advantage in any fight against the other part of the triangle. This creates a need for the other two parts of the triangle to form up and then power blocks would form around each alliance. Unfortunately, the Bai family is not very popular and so a Cai/Sun alliance would garner a lot more of the lower level support amongst the class.

Of course this is all from the top of my head without any support at all, but this could be a plausible way divisions in the class grow over the next year if we are able to get that strong in that amount of time.

It was a joke in the same sense that I'll toss out ideas that I think are pretty awesome, narrative-wise, but won't get any traction from the general voting population. This particular idea was even less well thought-out than usual because it requires a certain character-type to call someone out in a duel that they know they will lose because it's a) the right thing to do and b) appears to be the right thing to do, and Ling Qi isn't quite at that level of political savvy matched to self-assurance and self-righteousness/moral integrity.

In the current vote one of her main thoughts was simply: run.

She'll fall apart even considering the idea of calling Sun Liling out, like, we've played her as a bit of a coward unless backed into a corner, and/or defending her friends, and that reflects upon the thoughts she thinks and the options she considers legitimate. Calling Sun Liling out? Mmm, no. Not as she is right now. Ling Qi is in this to win this, she won't go around doing things for the sake of appearances.

At best, I think, would be going to Sun Liling and asking her, very politely, why she attacked Bai Meizhen. Trying to put into practice what Gu Xiulang preached, in essence. I would be for that option, because it means that she'd start to become the sort of person that can attempt social combat and maybe even eventually call people out in duels. :V The problem is our action economy: would we really be willing to blow an action slot trying to talk to Sun Liling? Would Sun Liling respect that sort of strength? These are all question marks, but it might be worth considering.

The main problem, as I see it, for any future plan of world sect domination, is that our current understanding of the power dynamics of our year group is still incomplete. The people who have stood out to us are the girls. We still don't know who the strongest boys are, largely, I suspect, because it's not relevant to Ling Qi. Girls are potential threats, they can attack you in your own home, boys, on the other hand, just have to be avoided so she mostly dismisses them as irrelevant until they become relevant, like Huang Da did. It's pretty egregious: Zhou's class only had a handful of girls to begin with and we apparently knew almost all of them (that were strong), whereas despite having a lot of boys in the class we pretty much knew no one by name except for our Han Jian social circle, Gan Guangli who was friendly to her, and, uh, the other guy whose name I forget.

Like, I think she's been training with 30 people every day for 2 months and while she vaguely recalls some of the people currently fighting her, she doesn't even remember their names. With how heartbreakingly scared she was of Bai Meizhen in the update, yrsillar's communicating pretty clearly that Ling Qi pretty much still sees the world through threat assessments.

We can't go for kingmaker actions with an outlook like that, even if our inclination towards support arts would make that a nice, thematic route to success.

I don't think we even need a mercy vote for the next update, no. This is an attack against us and our friend after we're injured. We need to make an example of them, something a step further then what we did before. It's annoying, but we have to escalate.

You know, provided we win.

The whole 'even strip their clothes' things sounds appropriate, because we simply can't tolerate this happening to us, and even if this is really an attack on Meizhen, something I'm not entirely convinced about, they've claimed it was at us.

We have to go to the next level - stripping them, or breaking a few bones, or something to drive home how not ok we are with this. We would prefer people fight us in an open and honest manner (even if we aren't intending to do the same. Because hypocrisy is only bad when other people do it), and so we have to escalate.

The problem is, they already have eight people attacking us. If we come out of this in one piece and start doing things that are obviously wrong like kicking people while they are down, what are we gonna do if, say, Gan Guangli walks up to us and says: "I understand you are angry Ling Qi and that their behavior will shame their houses, but this is wrong and I think you know it is wrong."

The ability to escalate depends on them not being able to immediately escalate in turn. As is, we're probably drawing a crowd who wants to see Bai Meizhen cowed. We win and take our winnings, that's tough, but that's business as usual. We start trying to kneecap people? Others will be quite justified in trying to interfere, because, wow, we are actually kind of doing bad guy things and eight people aren't just eight mook-level scrubs, they'll have their own support networks and friends and so on.
 
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The problem is, they already have eight people attacking us. If we come out of this in one piece and start doing things that are obviously wrong like kicking people while they are down, what are we gonna do if, say, Gan Guangli walks up to us and says: "I understand you are angry Ling Qi and that their behavior will shame their houses, but this is wrong and I think you know it is wrong."

The ability to escalate depends on them not being able to immediately escalate in turn. As is, we're probably drawing a crowd who wants to see Bai Meizhen cowed. We win and take our winnings, that's tough, but that's business as usual. We start trying to kneecap people? Others will be quite justified in trying to interfere, because, wow, we are actually kind of doing bad guy things and eight people aren't just eight mook-level scrubs, they'll have their own support networks and friends and so on.

The problem with not going farther, not escalating, is that is says it's ok to do anything to us - we treat ambush the same way we do duel, we treat people kicking us when we're down the same way we treat challenges.

At which point, well, there's no reason not too.
 
The problem is, they already have eight people attacking us. If we come out of this in one piece and start doing things that are obviously wrong like kicking people while they are down, what are we gonna do if, say, Gan Guangli walks up to us and says: "I understand you are angry Ling Qi and that their behavior will shame their houses, but this is wrong and I think you know it is wrong."

The ability to escalate depends on them not being able to immediately escalate in turn. As is, we're probably drawing a crowd who wants to see Bai Meizhen cowed. We win and take our winnings, that's tough, but that's business as usual. We start trying to kneecap people? Others will be quite justified in trying to interfere, because, wow, we are actually kind of doing bad guy things and eight people aren't just eight mook-level scrubs, they'll have their own support networks and friends and so on.
Also, everyone was warned by sect elder not to go too far against defeated opponents.
And it sets a really bad precedent.
Also, they probably really do have older relatives in the sect
 
The ability to escalate depends on them not being able to immediately escalate in turn. As is, we're probably drawing a crowd who wants to see Bai Meizhen cowed. We win and take our winnings, that's tough, but that's business as usual.

I would also argue that by merely winning we set the tone for anybody trying to fight us. If they are to fight us when we are by anybody else, there needs to be at least 4 to 5 good people to even try and take us on. If we are with Bai Meizhen, there is no chance of beating us without the other top people. Should we win, it will discourage gangbangers more than taking their loot ever will since it will communicate that gangbanging isn't working on kicking us down. This will, in turn, focus people who have grievances with us to try and fight us one on one in an "honorable" duel or try to gangbang us while we are alone. If they gangbang us while we are alone, we merely run away with SCS and FVM, no big deal, but if they try to challenge us to an honorable duel, then we have good odds at beating them once FVM comes up, especially once we break into yellow and silver.

we treat ambush the same way we do duel, we treat people kicking us when we're down the same way we treat challenges.

While I could argue that we have never been challenged to a duel yet, the second point you made is much more intriguing. By defeating them while we are weakened, a communication is given to people that this tactic doesn't work. If the gangbangers are unable to get us while we are down, then it will be nearly impossible to defeat us while we are up.

Conversely, this means that the single best opportunity to strike is going to be when we are down and when there are even greater numbers involved. I don't disagree with you that if we don't escalate we communicate a message that we treat people attacking us while we are down the same as challenges, but another communication that is brought to mind would be that we treat both equally and that it doesn't matter to us if we are down and you brought a whole bunch of friends. We'll treat it the same way because it doesn't make a difference to us, and if you are going to be the ones attacking, the thought that we don't care if we are weakened or not can send a scary message about our capabilities.
 
...No. Just no. Sorry, but I cannot accept being merciful to these guys. Maybe it's excessive to break their bones or hurt them further once they're down, but at a minimum, they need to be humiliated for what they're doing here.

Since Ling Qi herself believes it, and Ling Qi is normally incredibly oblivious to political undertones, I believe that it is obvious to anyone watching this, that these punks are targeting a wounded Bai Meizhen and only using Ling Qi as an excuse. This cannot be allowed to stand. If you lose equally to a wounded, outnumbered enemy, as to a fresh enemy, why not at least try for the wounded, outnumbered scenario for a slightly better chance of victory? But if the consequences of loss are much higher for when you gang up on and try to attack a wounded enemy, then this will at least give you second thoughts about what tactics are appropriate to pursue.

Also, I'm simply very angry at them for trying to take advantage of our best friend this way. If they want some kind of face or pride from surviving a battle with a Bai, no matter how wounded, I want to deny them that face or pride with everything we have. I want them humiliated for pulling a stunt like this on us. I also hate that they're using us to get to Meizhen. I would honestly be much less angry if they were only ambushing Ling Qi while she was injured, but no, they're ambushing Meizhen. Meizhen, whom they don't have a hope of defeating, unless she's not only injured, but also massively outnumbered. And they're using us as an excuse to do it. I am very, very much not okay with this, far more not okay than I was with Hong Lin and the twins coming after us, and as such, I'd like Ling Qi to respond appropriately.

EDIT: And by "humiliation" and "respond appropriately", I mean, strip them naked and leave them in the square.
 
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You musta missed my post just above yours, so I'll just give a nod to your points and beg you not to split my post up like that again, it's not that spaghetti posting will bring down the wrath of the mods, but it is kind of annoying to have to answer point by point like that so I'll just take a respond to this one.

You're going to have to explain the Han Jian going to the battlefield with us thing though. He's an upper noble, as are, it appears, most of his peers. Unless they have a tradition of serving with the Empire for a few years (possible, Han Jian's grandfather was a general, iirc?), Li Suyin's very obvious social combat inclinations seems to suggest that they're headed back to play the game of thrones. It's possible that, like American presidents before Obama, there's a stigma associated with nobles who have never served in a military capacity (Zhou seems to disparage them quite a bit), but I don't think it's necessarily true that they're coming with us.

For Suyin... I suspect there's a medical corps and that Suyin will be a shoe in to go in that group. Given how rare healing seems to be, and how high level you need to be to do substantial healing, doctors are way too precious to waste on the battlefield. She could be with us, but not in a combat capacity unless shit had hit the fan (shit will hit the fan).
Han Jian's family is explicitly a military family, with his father being a general, and his friends are explicitly 'children of his father's knights'. Sun Liling, however, is the granddaughter of a king that is also a general.

Basically most of the background info we have on Han Jian is that he is expected to be a war leader soon.

It was a joke in the same sense that I'll toss out ideas that I think are pretty awesome, narrative-wise, but won't get any traction from the general voting population. This particular idea was even less well thought-out than usual because it requires a certain character-type to call someone out in a duel that they know they will lose because it's a) the right thing to do and b) appears to be the right thing to do, and Ling Qi isn't quite at that level of political savvy matched to self-assurance and self-righteousness/moral integrity.

In the current vote one of her main thoughts was simply: run.

She'll fall apart even considering the idea of calling Sun Liling out, like, we've played her as a bit of a coward unless backed into a corner, and/or defending her friends, and that reflects upon the thoughts she thinks and the options she considers legitimate. Calling Sun Liling out? Mmm, no. Not as she is right now. Ling Qi is in this to win this, she won't go around doing things for the sake of appearances.

At best, I think, would be going to Sun Liling and asking her, very politely, why she attacked Bai Meizhen. Trying to put into practice what Gu Xiulang preached, in essence. I would be for that option, because it means that she'd start to become the sort of person that can attempt social combat and maybe even eventually call people out in duels. :V The problem is our action economy: would we really be willing to blow an action slot trying to talk to Sun Liling? Would Sun Liling respect that sort of strength? These are all question marks, but it might be worth considering.

The main problem, as I see it, for any future plan of world sect domination, is that our current understanding of the power dynamics of our year group is still incomplete. The people who have stood out to us are the girls. We still don't know who the strongest boys are, largely, I suspect, because it's not relevant to Ling Qi. Girls are potential threats, they can attack you in your own home, boys, on the other hand, just have to be avoided so she mostly dismisses them as irrelevant until they become relevant, like Huang Da did. It's pretty egregious: Zhou's class only had a handful of girls to begin with and we apparently knew almost all of them (that were strong), whereas despite having a lot of boys in the class we pretty much knew no one by name except for our Han Jian social circle, Gan Guangli who was friendly to her, and, uh, the other guy whose name I forget.

Like, I think she's been training with 30 people every day for 2 months and while she vaguely recalls some of the people currently fighting her, she doesn't even remember their names. With how heartbreakingly scared she was of Bai Meizhen in the update, yrsillar's communicating pretty clearly that Ling Qi pretty much still sees the world through threat assessments.
Mmh, I might have missed it, but where is she written as being scared OF bai Meizhen in the last update?

Anyway there is a lot of good points above... but a lot of things that ring just a little off, too. You are absolutely right about her prioritising threat assessments. You are wrong about the gendered part. Ling Qi doesn't notice girls in Elder Zhou's class anymore than she notices boys. The reason she know of Sun Liling is only because she was one of the "standouts" in our intro: she also remembers Ji Rong and Han Jian because of that.

Remember that she asked about both Cai Renxiang and the strongest boy in Elder Zhou's class to Bai Meizhen at the same time because they were the strongest. It wasn't a gendered "they are able to attack me at home", given the strongest guy wasn't.

Likewise, she noticed Gan Guangli long before she noticed Hong Lin, so much so that she didn't even remember Hong Lin's name when she was receiving Qi Foundation pills, like she couldn't remember Huang Da's. She also remembered Lu Feng's name before her's, too.

I also disagree with the whole point of 'calling out Sun Liling', given I don't consider Li Qing being annoyed at her, nor I consider Bai Meizhen to be, nor do I think Sun Liling considers herself to be responsible for the rabbles attacking Bai Meizhen. In fact, she'd be ashamed of Bai Meizhen losing there, I suspect. I suspect that your whole "she is not ready for such social combat" is only partially true though: she understands needing social posturing a lot. I just don't think social posturing would help at all in the current situation, especially such social posturing.

This is more of a "Try to be friend with Sun Liling" action, which is another thing entirely.
Conversely, this means that the single best opportunity to strike is going to be when we are down and when there are even greater numbers involved. I don't disagree with you that if we don't escalate we communicate a message that we treat people attacking us while we are down the same as challenges, but another communication that is brought to mind would be that we treat both equally and that it doesn't matter to us if we are down and you brought a whole bunch of friends. We'll treat it the same way because it doesn't make a difference to us, and if you are going to be the ones attacking, the thought that we don't care if we are weakened or not can send a scary message about our capabilities.
Traditionally, having scary abilities but being known for being reticent to use those abilities means people see you as a perfect target instead.

Now, your plan might be "we get a lot of challengers", which, I guess, is OK though not really in character. I especially dislike the part where they challenge us when we are weakened or our friends are.

However, 'being strong but there being no consequence to challenging us' just means that people know they can attack us again and again, and if they win they become famous, and if they lose they lose nothing but still are seen as powerful. It's win-win for them.

You don't get to be scary by being powerful but inactive. There is also a message that is sent when you are nicer to guys who attack wounded friends than to guys who challenge you. The same as why I didn't want people to loot only Hong Lin, as that mean "she doesn't give a shit about her allies".
 
Hmmm, it seems that I didn't clearly state what I wanted to happen. I say that we should loot them all, of everything, but they keep the clothes and we don't break their bones, the same thing that we did with Hong Lin and the twins. There need to be consequences to trying to attack us, but I don't think escalating and taking the clothes and breaking their bones is the correct call.

I am absolutely not about to give mercy to these people, but neither should we be cruel and step up our looting a notch. We take what we can, leave the clothes and the bones alone.

I'm also not sure where I said we shouldn't be using our abilities, because in this fight we will be using all of them, and hopefully to great effect. With us being strong and being willing to use that strength to protect ourselves and our friends, and with consequences for losing to us, there should be a decrease in the number of challengers. People don't want to challenge others unless they have good odds of winning.

So, I'm against escalation, but I'm for looting them all of everything they have. This creates a situation that there are consequences for challenging us and losing, we are strong enough to win fights against us, and that strength remains even when we are wounded from other fights.
 
My thoughts about the support build: we are in xianxia.
Duels are a staple of this genre.

If the build cannot win alone (or at least with spirit allies) we will need to adjust it, because otherwise we will get Problems.
 
Han Jian's family is explicitly a military family, with his father being a general, and his friends are explicitly 'children of his father's knights'. Sun Liling, however, is the granddaughter of a king that is also a general.

Basically most of the background info we have on Han Jian is that he is expected to be a war leader soon.
:Citation Needed:
Pretty sure we still don't know about the specifics of how the four are connected other than Han Jian is the leader, his and Fang's family seem to be the most powerful and Fan Yu and Gu Xiulan are engaged. Don't remember it being specified it was a military relationship.
The West however is known for its violent borders and Sun's grandfather is known for his military prowess.
 
Han Jian's 'Father' baits barbarian horde into a temple, then subsequently does something that makes everything explode. There's some personal assumption that there are Gu family members involved in said exploding, because, hey, explosions and Xiulan's proud references to said explosion.

This action is considered by Han Jian as a military action, instead of a nobility/cultivator action, and he challenges Fan Yu to argue against it. This was in response to Fan Yu considering Ling Qi's suggestion to ambush others during the first test of Zhou's tournament thing.

I also note that said others that was ambushed then were Hong Lin Lei Qing (ice girl), Zhu siblings (wood girl and wind boy), and one other, I believe. :D

EDIT: Also, some personal assumption that said explosion makes the spirits of the region go bugfuck nuts and causes famine, and that Fan Yu's cultivator clan is now invaluable to the region because they presumably still stay around after the explosion and do something to this particular matter.
 
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...No. Just no. Sorry, but I cannot accept being merciful to these guys. Maybe it's excessive to break their bones or hurt them further once they're down, but at a minimum, they need to be humiliated for what they're doing here.
I love how you read "we cannot go too far and break their bones while they are down because its' against sect rules and we lack backing" and twist it into "let's be merciful".

Also, I love how you think that:
1. Beating them 2 v 8 (while we are injured) is not humiliating. (and said beating probably leaving them injured enough that they cannot practice for 2 weeks or so)
2. Stealing everything they carry, including their magic items and possibly other stuff is not humiliating

You have some really really bizarre definitions of words like humiliating and mercy.

Frankly if we were away from prying eyes (that means far away from the sect since higher ups have divine sense probably) and could get away with it I would be all for literally killing them and disposing of the bodies.

But we are not, we are in the middle of a freaking sect where there are rules and they have social backing on top of that. We frankly cannot get away with the nonsense you are purporting.

So we will humiliate them (actual humiliation) by beating them, steal all their shit, and add maybe add them to The List of people to deal with later on when we have an actual opportunity to do so.
But we are not going to act like a fool and get ourselves in trouble we cannot handle.
 
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Actually, from my understanding of the situation:
-Grudges - As with the previous fight, they are enemies of a close ally, and their families are enemies of our close ally's family. They are already enemies and the grudge cannot get much worse than it already is. Therefore, taking them for all they are worth, injuring them badly enough to set back their training, and destroying their public credibility is beneficial to the strategic scenario.

-Sect rules
--Talk shit, get hit - They talked shit, they're getting hit. Trashtalking Meizhen's family is the sort of all-transcending insult in the Confucian base setting of Xianxia that she HAS to respond to, and viciously at that, particularly combined with the aspersions on her personal character. As in, even if she won, if she didn't 'accidentally' maim at least the one talking she'd lose face for not responding appropriately.
---This is why Meizhen HAD to get stuck into the fight, once he mentioned her family she had no choice but to respond...something which Ling Qi cannot understand because for her, family isn't something to be proud of, or to protect.

--Bullying - They initiated the fight on two wounded foes(to boot, they're even lying in waiting, and likely the real reason Meizhen chose to meditate instead of go to get healed, she expected to be attacked if she left in anything less than top condition), and in such cases, that removes a lot of the usual setting considerations, because the Sect is a microcosm of the Xianxia world, and initiating a disadvantaged fight with a stronger party removes much of your protections. Like, being the 8 in the 8 on 2 makes you the bandits in the scenario, and you can be destroyed and humiliated at no consequence.
---In fact, given the specific circumstances, if Cui winds up killing or permanently maiming one or two of them in the heat of battle, the Elders would most likely shrug and let it be.

--Optics - Meizhen's social strategy is terror and intimidation. No mercy is going to help much there, she needs to establish that attacking her even when she's injured is your doom.

--Older students - By this metric, I believe we're already slated for a conflict with them from the point we allied with Meizhen...actually pretty much all our main allies are practically designed to piss off most of the traditional noble scion types. Get swole faster.

-Breakthroughs - Hey, Danger boosts the breakthrough chance right? Double breakthrough ho~

Really, the big factor against completely stripping them of even clothing beyond normal looting is that Meizhen is still injured and we don't want to generate enough time for a THIRD fight to happen before we reach a safe zone.
 
The problem with not going farther, not escalating, is that is says it's ok to do anything to us - we treat ambush the same way we do duel, we treat people kicking us when we're down the same way we treat challenges.

At which point, well, there's no reason not too.

Nah, you misunderstand. My viewpoint on escalating vs not-escalating is that that's a nice, long-term preoccupation.

I'm asking what we do if we escalate right now and some outsider decides to interfere and escalate right now in response. Fights are fast. Dominance displays are by definition showy and kind of time-consuming. We, quite frankly, don't have the reserves to play a game of chicken with all of our yearmates and we are in a hugely public setting. Imagine you are an unaffiliated disciple who just saw the scene play out and maybe you're a little repulsed by the eight versus one, especially since it looks like the two of them are clearly injured, but you're not going to stick your neck out for a gutter rat and a goddamn snake, but then, after winning, gutter rat starts beating the shit out of people who have already fallen down.

Suddenly, this is actually a pretty bitching opportunity to project yourself as being on the side of the angels and get a chance to break Bai Meizhen's face and actually do something that everyone will perceive as being a JUSTICE! action and possibly score a whole bunch of political points with people who just had their asses handed to them. Remember, lower level nobles are opportunists. Unless we've broken into yellow, I doubt they'll think <Holy Shit gutter rat is so strong and badass> they're going to think <holy shit, Bai Meizhen's reputation is well-deserved>.

They won't see it as a fitting punishment or an eye for an eye. Already beating Hong Lin and the Zhu twins is talked about as 'robbery'. We beat them up and steal their shinies and start breaking bones after winning? I think that's too far, probably even for Gu Xiulan, and as far as we know she's the only who has ever maimed someone, and (hopefully) unintentionally at that.

We start breaking bones and going too far we'll have alienated everyone. Worse, I'm pretty sure that we were targeted because it was a route that would allow people to access Bai Meizhen, but they're still using us as the excuse meaning it'll reflect poorly on Meizhen for having defended us (her reputation, recall, is pretty terrible as is even though she's probably one of the nicest, most patient people you'll meet who happens to appear super standoffish and disturbingly alien) and also meaning that people are going to target our weaker friends as a route to access us, once they think we're worth targeting.

We have to stay calm. If everyone knows that you've got a trigger, in my experience human nature says they're going to keep pushing it unless given an extremely compelling reason to do otherwise. In real life, that may indeed be violence, but here, violence is normal. Broken bones aren't a big deal because in the course of an ordinary spar bones are already being broken. I'm pretty sure Hong Ling got second and third-degree burns from Gu Xiulan and she mostly kept the pain under wraps. We're not escalating in terms of violence dealt, we're escalating in terms of... idek what it'd be called, tasteless victory mongering?

Unless you`re willing to kill or maim or disfigure them, there's probably nothing we can do to them in terms of physical violence that hasn't already been done to them at some point. Stripping would probably be more effective purely because that sort of humiliation has never happened to them before, but, be careful with that option because stripping people under 18 may cause the mods to look in your direction.

Even discounting that, I'd advise against it. These are teenagers. Teenagers do not take humiliation well, especially those that are used to being in positions of wealth and strength. Teenagers are good at drama and good at making the world revolve around themselves and are good at talking themselves into stupid ideas especially if they're in a group.

If we give in to our darker impulses, I literally see no upsides. These aren't some spoiled nobles who've never been hurt before, humiliating them isn't going to break them or cause them to back off and kicking them while they're down isn't either. Either beating eight people with Bai Meizhen is going to be enough to make people in general back down, or it isn't. We've already established our normal dueling ethic: taking all their stuff, at this point, is probably not only appropriate, it's expected, but kicking them while they're down...

No, I can't see any glorious upsides to it.
 
Nah, you misunderstand. My viewpoint on escalating vs not-escalating is that that's a nice, long-term preoccupation.

I'm asking what we do if we escalate right now and some outsider decides to interfere and escalate right now in response. Fights are fast. Dominance displays are by definition showy and kind of time-consuming. We, quite frankly, don't have the reserves to play a game of chicken with all of our yearmates and we are in a hugely public setting. Imagine you are an unaffiliated disciple who just saw the scene play out and maybe you're a little repulsed by the eight versus one, especially since it looks like the two of them are clearly injured, but you're not going to stick your neck out for a gutter rat and a goddamn snake, but then, after winning, gutter rat starts beating the shit out of people who have already fallen down.

Suddenly, this is actually a pretty bitching opportunity to project yourself as being on the side of the angels and get a chance to break Bai Meizhen's face and actually do something that everyone will perceive as being a JUSTICE! action and possibly score a whole bunch of political points with people who just had their asses handed to them. Remember, lower level nobles are opportunists. Unless we've broken into yellow, I doubt they'll think <Holy Shit gutter rat is so strong and badass> they're going to think <holy shit, Bai Meizhen's reputation is well-deserved>.

They won't see it as a fitting punishment or an eye for an eye. Already beating Hong Lin and the Zhu twins is talked about as 'robbery'. We beat them up and steal their shinies and start breaking bones after winning? I think that's too far, probably even for Gu Xiulan, and as far as we know she's the only who has ever maimed someone, and (hopefully) unintentionally at that.

We start breaking bones and going too far we'll have alienated everyone. Worse, I'm pretty sure that we were targeted because it was a route that would allow people to access Bai Meizhen, but they're still using us as the excuse meaning it'll reflect poorly on Meizhen for having defended us (her reputation, recall, is pretty terrible as is even though she's probably one of the nicest, most patient people you'll meet who happens to appear super standoffish and disturbingly alien) and also meaning that people are going to target our weaker friends as a route to access us, once they think we're worth targeting.

We have to stay calm. If everyone knows that you've got a trigger, in my experience human nature says they're going to keep pushing it unless given an extremely compelling reason to do otherwise. In real life, that may indeed be violence, but here, violence is normal. Broken bones aren't a big deal because in the course of an ordinary spar bones are already being broken. I'm pretty sure Hong Ling got second and third-degree burns from Gu Xiulan and she mostly kept the pain under wraps. We're not escalating in terms of violence dealt, we're escalating in terms of... idek what it'd be called, tasteless victory mongering?

Unless you`re willing to kill or maim or disfigure them, there's probably nothing we can do to them in terms of physical violence that hasn't already been done to them at some point. Stripping would probably be more effective purely because that sort of humiliation has never happened to them before, but, be careful with that option because stripping people under 18 may cause the mods to look in your direction.

Even discounting that, I'd advise against it. These are teenagers. Teenagers do not take humiliation well, especially those that are used to being in positions of wealth and strength. Teenagers are good at drama and good at making the world revolve around themselves and are good at talking themselves into stupid ideas especially if they're in a group.

If we give in to our darker impulses, I literally see no upsides. These aren't some spoiled nobles who've never been hurt before, humiliating them isn't going to break them or cause them to back off and kicking them while they're down isn't either. Either beating eight people with Bai Meizhen is going to be enough to make people in general back down, or it isn't. We've already established our normal dueling ethic: taking all their stuff, at this point, is probably not only appropriate, it's expected, but kicking them while they're down...

No, I can't see any glorious upsides to it.

Yes.
We beat them, we rob them blind, that's punishment enough.

They beat us, well, shit, but then we go and rob them blind in the night. (and others, don't want to be too easy to point out)
 
They won't see it as a fitting punishment or an eye for an eye. Already beating Hong Lin and the Zhu twins is talked about as 'robbery'. We beat them up and steal their shinies and start breaking bones after winning? I think that's too far, probably even for Gu Xiulan, and as far as we know she's the only who has ever maimed someone, and (hopefully) unintentionally at that.
To expand on this. It's also worth noting that she had maimed that girl during a special event where we were explicitly warned before we entered the event that death was on the table during the event.

While right now we are in an event where we were explicitly told we may rob the losers, and explicitly warned not to do anything untoward or barbaric towards the loser once the fight is over.
 
Something to keep in mind is that if we escalate...well those older family members? They're likely gonna come stomp us. We've made it personal. We went beyond just taking their stuff. We have no background? You think the sect is gonna care? "Guess her potential and talent was wasted if she didn't know not to provoke people with more influence than her" is something I expect to be passed around to those in the know. Or at least something similar. Plus it'd drag more attention to us as words of our escalating spread. Seems ridiculously ooc as an action given how often our discomfort with attention is mentioned. Deciding to escalate is just to feel vindicated it's not a choice that will further our cultivation or goals.
 
By the way, Optics in this context is how others observe or how we want others to observe?
 
By the way, Optics in this context is how others observe or how we want others to observe?

Optics generally refers to how others perceive your actions in a given context, so it's kind of both. By acknowledging that optics are a thing, you modify your own conduct to improve how others perceive what you are doing.

Right now, the expendable eight are slanting the narrative towards them being on the side of justice and good guys, and us being on the sides of the bullies and bad guys. Even if, from our perspective, all we see are bullies trying to hurt us and our friends, from an outsiders' perspective we mostly have people wanting to get comeuppance on an uppity commoner and then not backing down when an overly arrogant noble tried to get them to go away from their righteous crusade. All the talk talk talking - it's clearly playing for an audience.
 
I love how you read "we cannot go too far and break their bones while they are down because its' against sect rules and we lack backing" and twist it into "let's be merciful".

Also, I love how you think that:
1. Beating them 2 v 8 (while we are injured) is not humiliating. (and said beating probably leaving them injured enough that they cannot practice for 2 weeks or so)
2. Stealing everything they carry, including their magic items and possibly other stuff is not humiliating

You have some really really bizarre definitions of words like humiliating and mercy.

Frankly if we were away from prying eyes (that means far away from the sect since higher ups have divine sense probably) and could get away with it I would be all for literally killing them and disposing of the bodies.

But we are not, we are in the middle of a freaking sect where there are rules and they have social backing on top of that. We frankly cannot get away with the nonsense you are purporting.

So we will humiliate them (actual humiliation) by beating them, steal all their shit, and add maybe add them to The List of people to deal with later on when we have an actual opportunity to do so.
But we are not going to act like a fool and get ourselves in trouble we cannot handle.

If you properly read my post, you'd see that I'm not advocating breaking their bones, just stripping them and leaving them naked. Let me be clear that I consider it merciful if we treat them the same way we treated Hong Lin and the twins. I want to make it clear that I consider their actions here worse than when Hong Lin and the twins attacked us, and therefore, our response needs to be proportionate. We looted Hong Lin and the twins to their robes, so we need to do worse to these guys. Hence, stripping them of even their robes. I want them utterly humiliated, beyond the humiliation we subjected Hong Lin and the twins to by beating them and taking all their stuff. That's the only fitting response given the proportional offences.

EDIT: Hmm, I realise I did not actually state that in the post you were replying to. I actually advocated stripping them naked a couple times earlier in the thread, not in the post you were responding to, so now I understand why you thought I meant for their bones to be broken. No, I'm actually not wedded to the idea of their bones being broken. I just want them extra humiliated than what we did to Hong Lin and the twins. So strip them naked, and honestly, if there were any flagpoles in this sect, I'd want them hoisted on said flagpoles while basically naked, but since there aren't, I'll settle for just leaving them naked in the place where they attacked us.
 
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Optics generally refers to how others perceive your actions in a given context, so it's kind of both. By acknowledging that optics are a thing, you modify your own conduct to improve how others perceive what you are doing.

Right now, the expendable eight are slanting the narrative towards them being on the side of justice and good guys, and us being on the sides of the bullies and bad guys. Even if, from our perspective, all we see are bullies trying to hurt us and our friends, from an outsiders' perspective we mostly have people wanting to get comeuppance on an uppity commoner and then not backing down when an overly arrogant noble tried to get them to go away from their righteous crusade. All the talk talk talking - it's clearly playing for an audience.
I'm going to agree it's playing it up, but I'm going to disagree it's going to have mostly people wanting to get comeuppance on an uppity commoner/etc.

Basically, I think they are giving themselves both an alibi and also making a speech that goes along what a lot of people like seeing here. It's not meant to convince people, it's meant to get people already convinced cheering for them.
 
If you properly read my post, you'd see that I'm not advocating breaking their bones, just stripping them and leaving them naked. Let me be clear that I consider it merciful if we treat them the same way we treated Hong Lin and the twins. I want to make it clear that I consider their actions here worse than when Hong Lin and the twins attacked us, and therefore, our response needs to be proportionate. We looted Hong Lin and the twins to their robes, so we need to do worse to these guys. Hence, stripping them of even their robes. I want them utterly humiliated, beyond the humiliation we subjected Hong Lin and the twins to by beating them and taking all their stuff. That's the only fitting response given the proportional offences.

EDIT: Hmm, I realise I did not actually state that in the post you were replying to. I actually advocated stripping them naked a couple times earlier in the thread, not in the post you were responding to, so now I understand why you thought I meant for their bones to be broken. No, I'm actually not wedded to the idea of their bones being broken. I just want them extra humiliated than what we did to Hong Lin and the twins. So strip them naked, and honestly, if there were any flagpoles in this sect, I'd want them hoisted on said flagpoles while basically naked, but since they aren't, I'll settle for just leaving them naked in the place where they attacked us.
I still think this a terrible idea. They think they're justified now? What happens when we do stuff that humiliates them even more than 'losing a fight and their stuff to a commoner'. It becomes all that and then public humiliation. They're already grouping up it doesn't take much for them to start turning public opinion against us more than it already is or would be. Other people as well...if they think we've gone too far we could alienate our allies or have people originally uninvolved start thinking that putting us in our place is the 'righteous' action given all the disrespect we show for social cultivator norms. Fact is we're a cultivator and not even a very strong one. You can't just ignore cultural standards without repercussions. If winning a fight earlier was supposed to cool the heat for a while. Winning here will cool it even more. We're not fresh on Qi, our friend is injured, and the odds are against us.
 
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If you properly read my post, you'd see that I'm not advocating breaking their bones, just stripping them and leaving them naked.
I did read your post.
While you conceded to not breaking their bones, you are explicitly unhappy about it.
You are further unhappy with "merely" injuring and robbing them and want to do more even if it isn't break bones. (namely, strip them naked)

Doesn't change the fact you are still decrying "merely" injuring in combat and robbing them of everything they have as "mercy" and still insisting that injuring them in battle and robbing them is not "humiliating".
So all my points stand.

As for stripping them naked, that is getting into the sexual humiliation.
It is explicitly what the sect elder told us not to do
It is explicitly against sufficient velocity site rules
 
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:Citation Needed:
Pretty sure we still don't know about the specifics of how the four are connected other than Han Jian is the leader, his and Fang's family seem to be the most powerful and Fan Yu and Gu Xiulan are engaged. Don't remember it being specified it was a military relationship.
The West however is known for its violent borders and Sun's grandfather is known for his military prowess.
Seriously? We had long discussions about that before, but I guess it has been a while:
"So… brother?" she asked somewhat dully, fixing Han Jian with an unimpressed expression.

He winced, rubbing the back of his neck with his hand. It was only then that you noticed the tiger cub was nowhere to be seen. "Not by blood, it's just…" he trailed off seemingly searching for words. "Have you ever had a peer that your parent's pretty much ordered you to make nice with? It's like that. I kinda have to stay on his good side."
He raised an eyebrow, looking a bit surprised. "You're going for heart first? Most people go for an arm or the spine for the first one."

Ling Qi gave him an unsure look. "Is there something wrong with opening the heart first? You have a heart meridian open after all."

"Well yeah, but I'm expected to lead," he responds easily, wincing as Heijin awakens and nips at his fingers. He glares down at the kitten for a moment before continuing. "I didn't take you for the leader type."
Ling Qi gritted her teeth but refrained from responding further, instead looking to Han Jian, whose expression was neutral. "I think we could use a fifth person, weren't we talking about that before she came over?" He asked lightly. "That is the standard squad size isn't it? She fits the bill of what we need, if not perfectly. I mean it's not like any first year disciple is going to have a healing art. Unless you want to go try and chat up Sun Liling?" He asked, directing the last at Fan Yu.
"If the introductions are over, then shouldn't we move on to practicing our battle formations?" Yu asks gruffly from behind them cutting of Ling Qi's query. "We don't even know if she can fight without freezing up."
She learned more about the other's fighting styles. Han Jian was a swordsman, perhaps unsurprisingly, but he preferred to stay behind the other two boys and direct their actions, using his movement art to avoid being engaged. Fan Yu was a saber user and fought defensively using earth qi harden his skin and bull through opponents and obstacles with brute force.
"Which is why I figured defense was our best bet," Han Jian cut in firmly. "We don't have anyone with extended senses or scouting skills yet."

"Then why ask at all?" Ling Qi asked curiously as they began to climb the steep stone path, keeping a wary eye on the cliffs above.

"A leader needs to hear his subordinates, even if he thinks he knows best," Han Jian responded with a shrug. "Otherwise he might miss something. We should quiet down and get marching though. We'll be moving double time. I want time to survey the area around the target and set things up in our favor."

His words seemed to ease Fan Yu's tension, and drew a complicated sigh from Xiulan. Fang simply shook his head and made a sound like a rasping cough that Ling Qi was fairly certain meant laughter from the mute boy as he began to walk faster.
He was preparing to say something, looking positively furious at her having talked back to him so rudely when Han Jian held up a hand, looking both thoughtful and irritated. She could only hope he wasn't irritated at her. "... Was it cowardly when Father lured the Ash Walkers vanguard into the walls of the Falling Sun temple so they could be burned with minimal casualties?" He asked, glancing at Fan Yu.

"Well, no… It's hardly the same thing Jian!" The other boy blustered, looking uncomfortable at the query. "You cannot really be thinking of taking some inexperienced girls battle plan over your own, where is your pride!"

"Pride has no place on a battlefield," Han Jian responded glibly, with the air of one repeating someone else's words. "And she's right, I got caught up planning for a battle that doesn't even need to happen. I suppose I'm lucky Father isn't here to cuff me for it," he added the last in a musing tone.
The three of them continued to chat idly while Ling Qi sat down to rest her feet. She stayed quiet for the most part, listening rather than speaking as disciples continued to trickle in. She didn't have context for a lot of the things her two teammates spoke of, but it allowed her to pick up a few details about them. Gu Xiulan apparently had a number of older siblings, while Han Jian was an only child. Han Jian's father was definitely a general, but what relation if any Xiulan's family had to his was unclear, save that they were apparently very, very wealthy.
Ling Qi suddenly felt uncomfortable as she glanced up at Han Jian's expression which had contorted into a frown. "...Yeah, I wasted some opportunities," he replied evasively. Ling Qi didn;t miss the way he looked briefly at her. "But I told you I want to start making up for that, didn't I? How am I supposed to catch up if you won't even give me a chance to try? I'm responsible for the ones around me; Xiulan, Fang, Yu, … and others too, once I get back, I need your help with that,"

Basically, it's pretty obvious to me that Han Jian is the son of a powerful military family and seems to be the heir too. He is expected to become a general himself, and Fan Yu/Gu Xiulan/Han Fangs are treated like subordinates and favoured followers. He constantly train in squad tactics and war, and there is, to me, no question about him being in the military later.

The question is whether he'll go back to the Golden Field to do it, or will be expected to continue training in the military with the sect before he comes back so he is already "good" by then.
 
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