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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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TehChron said:
@BungieONI



From Thunderdome Redux after she had Dharitri turn into full Field of Flowers mode.

Thats why i think it's highly unlikely for any half hearted damage to stick to Liling while Dharitri is in play. She can heal herself. Dharitri may be able to as well. Honestly, even if Liling still has an absurd amount of Qi no matter what, our best bet is to go for the sustain game that is Ling Qi's strong suite. Of course it'll still be difficult, and Liling will have avenues to turn things around and knock Ling Qi out before then.

But, and here's the really big thing:

It gives us an avenue to victory, and if Liling is capable of realizing that she'll have to use her full strength to deny it to Ling Qi once it becomes apparent. It turns a wild stab in the dark to maybe get lucky into a legitimate threat, and makes all of this much more weighty. What's more, it'll be clear to the onlookers that setting up the fight in that manner was intentional on Ling Qis end, a deliberate and calculated effort to punch up.

It'll look way, way better than just tossing out stuff and hoping it sticks, imo
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I remember that stuff from when I was looking through the old posts for quotes to support my assumptions. Truth be told though I actually just straight up forgot that Cai's card even did damage as part of its dispel when I was coming up with my version of the plan.

And you're right, the damage ain't gonna do anything to Liling, if it even hits to begin with.

TehChron said:
Well, you're right on that mark. But as I explained a bit later one point of Perfect Damage isnt really going to do much to Liling when we know for a fact that she can heal her wounds with a personal healing art.

Whereas with Dharitri we don't know that for a fact, since Dharitri never really healed from Cuis attacks in Thunderdome Redux, nor did we see Dharitri heal up the wound that Shen Hu dealt to her in the most recent update.

With one it definitely wont stick, whereas with the other it might and also ups our odds of taking out Dharitri with a single application of HC rather than using it multiple times against her.
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Which is a good point.

So it sort of turns the question into something like:

What would we want to dispel on Dharitri? The art specifies defensive arts, so it won't touch her singing buff stuff, which is what I think makes her dangerous for the whole fight beyond just her personal fighting ability with them claw woods. Meh, at that point its basically a case of "Hope it hits something useful" I think, which it should because creatures at this level of play have some kind of defensive buffs in play even if we don't know what they are.

*scratches chin* Yeah I'd be fine using the card on Dharitri.

It does have three charges so if we get really really silly lucky and don't have to spend all three of them, we can use them on Sun after the disengage and return phase of things. (Same if we use it on Sun actually, as I originally intended, but that's basically stating the obvious)
 
TehChron said:
I'm not saying that flying for a few turns can't help for disengaging, but what I am saying is that we shouldn't expect it to be something she doesnt already have an answer to. Liling went into this tournament expecting to fight Ling Qi, Renxiang, or both. She's known they can fly for several months. She'll have countermeasures. Whatever plan you wind up going with, just keep that fact in mind.
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I absolutely believe that she has an answer. She might have more than one. I just want to pull out what that answer is, and flight for us is cheap enough that I'm not sure why we'd want to wait until after we take out Dhartiri. After all, we might *not* take out Dhartiri. Alternately, it may turn out that her answer to flight is less efficient than our flight (our flight is pretty darned efficient) and figuring that out early lets us get a small advantage.

BungieONI said:
Cai already knows how flying vs Sun feels given Thunderdome Redux, and I doubt there's any particular trump attached to it. It also separates us from Zhengui, because Sun isn't stupid enough not to try to use it to push us away from our healer.
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She may have upgraded since then. Everyone else has. I'm not so concerned about her pushing us away from our healer because I'm not suggesting we move away all that far. Us flying rather than being on the ground isn't going to dramatically change her ability to push us around the battlefield.

Us flying means that we can't try to put Zhengui *between* us and her, but her move is high enough that I don't see that as a huge advantage.

Basically, I'm seeing this as "small potential advantage, minimal cost". It's true. The advantage is small... but the cost is minimal.

Other potential source of (small) advantage - Sun Lilign can fly, but Dhartiri probably can't. Being in the sky means that she may not be able to hit us as effectively with some of her attacks.

Other random thought: Crawling Horrors are explicitly "worms that crawl beneath the earth". Sending a pack of them to gnaw on Dhartiri's roots where Sun Liling can't get at them easily might be worthwhile, especially in response to her burying herself as a way of avoiding attacks.
 
Neshuakadal said:
How many more dice would that give us when we reengage with Sun? It will not make a large difference and would just be wasteful. If we lose after we use such an expensive item, something very likely, then it just makes us look really bad.
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That item is not expensive, it's a mass produced item for outer sect disciples which should be buyable just with Cai's leftover pocket money. It'll give us time to heal up after the pounding we'll have taken from ganking Dahlia in the first place, and force Sun to expend more qi buffing herself and chasing us down without being able to rely on Dahlia like she normally would.
 
Sirrocco said:
She may have upgraded since then. Everyone else has. I'm not so concerned about her pushing us away from our healer because I'm not suggesting we move away all that far. Us flying rather than being on the ground isn't going to dramatically change her ability to push us around the battlefield.

Us flying means that we can't try to put Zhengui *between* us and her, but her move is high enough that I don't see that as a huge advantage.

Basically, I'm seeing this as "small potential advantage, minimal cost". It's true. The advantage is small... but the cost is minimal.

Other potential source of (small) advantage - Sun Lilign can fly, but Dhartiri probably can't. Being in the sky means that she may not be able to hit us as effectively with some of her attacks.

Other random thought: Crawling Horrors are explicitly "worms that crawl beneath the earth". Sending a pack of them to gnaw on Dhartiri's roots where Sun Liling can't get at them easily might be worthwhile, especially in response to her burying herself as a way of avoiding attacks.
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Here's the thing about flying and Zhengui. His Ashfall is twenty five meters in diameter, and he can stack it up to four times for a hundred meter diameter. The problem is is that if we are using him to heal us he is not going to be able to make those stacks, given how powerful Liling is.

yrsillar said:
Ashfield Flowering: ooo
cost 8 qi
Usable only while at least one instance of Ashfall is active, this technique consumes the ashfield to revitalize allies. On activation one instance of Ashfall is dispelled, allied targets within the ashfall zone receive a two die bonus to all defensive clashes, resolve, and stamina tests for three turns and have one point of lethal or nonlethal damage healed.
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I expect him to be lucky to have more than 1 or two fields of Ashfall active with the rate he is going to have to use them up.

We thus have to, generously, stay within 50 meters of him in any direction to have him heal us. This is an irrelevant distance. Sun Liling does not actually need to fly at all to hit us from that distance based on her observed movement in Thunderdome Redux and in that time we saw her with Xiulan, and our own speed. She can stand on the ground and throw Gae Bolg's at us or leap up and stab us with whatever her closer is. (E: she attacked on such distances with her fight vs Shen Hu)

If this is not what you had in mind for flying, please elaborate.

Crawling Worms are Late Yellow and Dharitri has +4 autos on them, and has a field of life/qi consumpting flowers. It is basically giving her snacks, and feeding the Liling train. I see no point.
 
BungieONI said:
We thus have to, generously, stay within 50 meters of him in any direction to have him heal us. This is an irrelevant distance. Sun Liling does not actually need to fly at all to hit us from that distance based on her observed movement in Thunderdome Redux and in that time we saw her with Xiulan, and our own speed. She can stand on the ground and throw Gae Bolg's at us or leap up and stab us with whatever her closer is. (E: she attacked on such distances with her fight vs Shen Hu)

If this is not what you had in mind for flying, please elaborate.
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It basically is what I had in mind. My read on things is that flying is cheap enough that if that's making her use Gae Bolg, that's a win. If she's triggering her closer at us every turn, that's probably a win. Regardless, it's getting a bit more information out of her, and that's definitely a win. If it turns out that we're getting nothing out of it (which is, I admit, entirely possible), then we land.
 
BungieONI said:
Here's the thing about flying and Zhengui. His Ashfall is twenty five meters in diameter, and he can stack it up to four times for a hundred meter diameter. The problem is is that if we are using him to heal us he is not going to be able to make those stacks, given how powerful Liling is.
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No he can't. It doesn't work like that. He can create up to four 25m wide fields.

See this link for where I asked yrsillar about it:
yrsillar said:
A) is correct in this case

anyway, I'm gonna get the front page updated. Can I get the tally on the winning plan?
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Erebeal said:
No he can't. It doesn't work like that. He can create up to four 25m wide fields.

See this link for where I asked yrsillar about it:
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Huh, I was just going off the art description.

Interesting. How sad. TortBro needs to figure out the Expansion Secrets like we did.
 
Dispelling Armament seems like the best gains for forcing hole cards, since its basically her strategy foundation. Dharitri's buffs are more to help sustain than to win
 
Kai Merah said:
That item is not expensive, it's a mass produced item for outer sect disciples which should be buyable just with Cai's leftover pocket money. It'll give us time to heal up after the pounding we'll have taken from ganking Dahlia in the first place, and force Sun to expend more qi buffing herself and chasing us down without being able to rely on Dahlia like she normally would.
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It costs 800 red stones. We can get 2 green stones for less than that. As for the damage we get from Sun? Most of that is aggravated damage. Some of it will be down graded by TRF but not all of it. We can't heal aggravated damage. There also has been no response the point raised about how others will see the such a move. Unless we beat Sun unconscious such a move will be seen as very wasteful and pointless. It doesn't matter if Cai buys it for us. If your rich uncle buys you a new car and you just send it to the scrapper you look bad. It doesn't matter that someone else bought it you were the one that wasted it. Since the thread voted for the politics route we need to start worrying about politics. And politics is all about how people see you. Let's not get the rep for being wasteful.
 
Hmm, we can force Low Light in our opener by using Twilight Beauty too.

Liling's senses are reliant on drawing blood after all.

TRF's full suite + Twilight Beauty as a free action, that's our best bet for neutralizing her alpha.
 
Kai Merah said:
That item is not expensive, it's a mass produced item for outer sect disciples which should be buyable just with Cai's leftover pocket money. It'll give us time to heal up after the pounding we'll have taken from ganking Dahlia in the first place, and force Sun to expend more qi buffing herself and chasing us down without being able to rely on Dahlia like she normally would.
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None of the escape talismans are available for purchase in the Outer Sect. They're Inner Sect goods that we bought through an intermediary with the right contacts. They're not really all that cheap either. Not bank-breakingly expensive either, but not something to use trivially.

Also, Sun Liling can just take qi pills if we disengage. She can refill her qi a lot better than we can treat our injuries, and as far as I'm aware Zhengui can't eat qi pills. Disengaging is a really mixed bag.
 
Sirrocco said:
Does Low Light get us anything other than art unlocks?
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We actually don't need low light for arts, but it's cheaper to do so. What we need low light for is +2 defence from robe, +2 to initative and speed from SCS, as well as +3 autos to stealth.

Our super coherent Shadow propelled by wind that has the grace of a maiden of moonlight and the impulsion of thunder speed theme is very important after all :cry:
 
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yrsillar said:
Ling Qi wavered for a moment, unsure of what to do, but then rushed forward, dropping her bow to draw her flute, summoning her mist and the constructs of dissonance. The flowers were engulfed in mist, and she heard Sun liling let out a cry of irritation as they were swallowed up.
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TehChron said:
From Thunderdome Redux after she had Dharitri turn into full Field of Flowers mode.
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The thing is that simply having FVM up will counter the flowers if we look at the thunderdome.

I don't think dharithri has much less hitboxes or qi than Sun and as thus focusing on Sun is for me a better use of our actions as dharithri main bonus, which is giving qi to Sun is already countered by an art we will have up.
 
Arkeus said:
We actually don't need low light for arts, but it's cheaper to do so. What we need low light for is +2 defence from robe, +2 to initative and speed from SCS, as well as +3 autos to stealth.

Our super coherent Shadow propelled by wind that has the grace of a maiden of moonlight and the impulsion of thunder speed theme is very important after all :cry:
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uh, you could argue that it's like a storm at night?
 
archangis said:
The thing is that simply having FVM up will counter the flowers if we look at the thunderdome.

I don't think dharithri has much less hitboxes or qi than Sun and as thus focusing on Sun is for me a better use of our actions as dharithri main bonus, which is giving qi to Sun is already countered by an art we will have up.
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I doubt at this point that Dharitri's only bonus is the field of flowers. From what it looks like, her singing buffs are equivalent in usefulness.
 
Arkeus said:
Our super coherent Shadow propelled by wind that has the grace of a maiden of moonlight and the impulsion of thunder speed theme is very important after all :cry:
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The night is cold. A bank of heavy fog rolls across the town, the silver moonlight washing the world white. The light does not illuminate, but rather blinds, making the fog impenetrable to even the strongest of lanterns. A disturbed people awaken to the haunting melody of the wind whipping through their streets, accompanied by the thunder of great unearthly beasts howling. They cower in their houses from unseen terrors, the shadows dancing with eldritch bodies and bare bones. All remember the wisdom given by shaking travelers deep in their cups, "When the Nether Fog rolls, you are alone. Even in a town, even with your family, even holding on to the person next to you. In the fog, you are alone. The monsters though, they never are." Now, feeling the fog suckling at their souls, seeing the shadows of unseen horrors dancing in their streets, and hearing the terrible wind melodizing with the chorus of unearthly howls and roars, they knew the truth of the tales they had chuckled at days before.

-The song of monsters in the mist

We make a pretty good horror story. :D
 
archangis said:
The thing is that simply having FVM up will counter the flowers if we look at the thunderdome.

I don't think dharithri has much less hitboxes or qi than Sun and as thus focusing on Sun is for me a better use of our actions as dharithri main bonus, which is giving qi to Sun is already countered by an art we will have up.
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Except having Dhartiri around, as explained earlier, keeps us from leveraging Ling Qis strengths enough to actually apply that strategy in a relevant time frame before getting murderblendered.

Trying to outburst Liling is a waste pf time. And so long as Dhartiri is around FVMs primary strengths cant be leveraged in the first place.

The ones that would allow us to fend off Lilings attacks by dodge tanking.

"Reducing qi regen" is fine and all, but that's a sustain game issue, which is irrelevant in the early game facepunching where Liling shines best and Ling Qi doesn't

So going into this with a mindset prioritising the long game over the short one ensures that there will not be a long game to play towards in the first place.
fictionfan said:
It is a good thing then that our arts focus on her gas.
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No, our arts focus on outlasting people. There is some Qi drain, but not a lot. And the drain isnt nearly so intense that it can be competitive with her face punching in a relevant time frame.

Since she isnt going to run out of gas super quickly, then that means we cant just act like her qi intensive abilities wont matter. They will. Especially if they can be used to end the fight quickly.

Which is...more or less entirely what we expect her to go for in the first place. So, again, assuming that Ling Qis typical long term sustain approach is going to be sufficient to accomplish any of our goals going into the match is just silly. We need to deny Liling her own advantages if we want to stand a chance and level the playing field.

Thats simply all there is to it.
 
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BungieONI said:
I doubt at this point that Dharitri's only bonus is the field of flowers. From what it looks like, her singing buffs are equivalent in usefulness.
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Starlight elegy is our best bet here. It cost only one round to set up compared to the multiple for getting dharithri down.

TehChron said:
Except having Dhartiri around, as explained earlier, keeps us from leveraging Ling Qis strengths enough to actually apply that strategy in a relevant time frame before getting murderblendered.

Trying to outburst Liling is a waste pf time. And so long as Dhartiri is around FVMs primary strengths cant be leveraged in the first place.

The ones that would allow us to fend off Lilings attacks by dodge tanking.

"Reducing qi regen" is fine and all, but that's a sustain game issue, which is irrelevant in the early game facepunching where Liling shines best and Ling Qi doesn't

So going into this with a mindset prioritising the long game over the short one ensures that there will not be a long game to play towards in the first place.

No, our arts focus on outlasting people. There is some Qi drain, but not a lot. And the drain isnt nearly so intense that it can be competitive with her face punching in a relevant time frame.

Since she isnt going to run out of gas super quickly, then that means we cant just act like her qi intensive abilities wont matter. They will. Especially if they can be used to end the fight quickly.

Which is...more or less entirely what we expect her to go for in the first place. So, again, assuming that Ling Qis typical long term sustain approach is going to be sufficient to accomplish any of our goals going into the match is just silly. We need to deny Liling her own advantages if we want to stand a chance and level the playing field.

Thats simply all there is to it.
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The thing is that both our plan are very similar to the exception of the target. If we can't last five turns, we won't get dharithri down anyway.

Levelling the playing field matter little because we can remove dharithri from play by using FVM and flying, and this would cost significantly less actions than downing dharithri.

And it's not prioritirising the late game, as my plan would last barely a few turns more than yours, as once again Sun rely on her spirit flower form to heal herself. Flower form that is countered by FVM.

Lastly Sun excell in the face punching game, yes, but if her armor is removed and she is debuffed to hell that isn't true.
 
archangis said:
The thing is that both our plan are very similar to the exception of the target. If we can't last five turns, we won't get dharithri down anyway.

Levelling the playing field matter little because we can remove dharithri from play by using FVM and flying, and this would cost significantly less actions than downing dharithri.

And it's not prioritirising the late game, as my plan would last barely a few turns more than yours, as once again Sun rely on her spirit flower form to heal herself. Flower form that is countered by FVM.

Lastly Sun excell in the face punching game, yes, but if her armor is removed and she is debuffed to hell that isn't true.
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Except 1) If we can develop dispel resists, so can actual Ducal Tier Arts compounded by 2) Our own dispel dice are anemic at best

So rather than go straight for the one most likely prepped for such a tactic at the point where theyre strongest, the smart thing to do is go after the more vulnerable side of the equation, which is, by all accounts, Dhartiri.

Secondly, the entire point of ganking dhartiri is to meaningfully extend the length of the match and otherwise snag control of its pace from Liling.

Wailing on her ineffectually? That's exactly what she wants...pretty much everyone to do, really. Her build is clearly built around the idea.

We beat Ji Rong decisively by flipping the table on him, if we want to have our best possible showing against Liling we aren't going to do it by playing to her strengths, you know?

That's just common sense
 
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