Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

I'm going to tentatively bring back an old theory that a lot of archive 1 art are meant as foundations, and as such are purposefully made to lead toward special elements.This is not the case of ZB/FZ which is purposefully a low level pure Wind art that's about control of wind, rather than leading to other things, but here are some other arts in archive 1 we know of:

Of those, only Rippling Lake Art doesn't seem to obviously lead to a exotic element... and even it could very well lead to 'wave'. Obviously, FSA should lead to 'Star', IWA to 'Ice' and ASA to 'Ash'.
I think that this is overfitting.

Most arts have themes; and if you allow basically any one-word theme to count as a prospective special element, then you can fit ASA as "Ash" and IWA as "Ice" - but you can also say that AS is actually "Storm", AE is actually "Abyss", PLR is actually "Revel", or any number of things. Therefore, I don't think that archive 1 arts having concepts in their names/description is in some way indicative of them having special elements - because practically every art can be associated with one or more such concepts.

Furthermore, take a look at FSA. Yes, it has "Star" in its name. However, in practice, I can't think a deep association between the concept of stars and what FSA does. I mean, I suppose our arrows look like falling stars as they come down - but that seems to be an asthetic point more than anything, and there is nothing about the qi we use for the technique or how we use it that is evocative of the astral concept as far I can tell. More objectively, we have also clearly seen that FSA is NOT an introduction to using Astral Qi - as evidenced by the fact that we've finished FSA and there is no such special element upgrade in sight.
 
I think that this is overfitting.

Most arts have themes; and if you allow basically any one-word theme to count as a prospective special element, then you can fit ASA as "Ash" and IWA as "Ice" - but you can also say that AS is actually "Storm", AE is actually "Abyss", PLR is actually "Revel", or any number of things. Therefore, I don't think that archive 1 arts having concepts in their names/description is in some way indicative of them having special elements - because practically every art can be associated with one or more such concepts.

Furthermore, take a look at FSA. Yes, it has "Star" in its name. However, in practice, I can't think a deep association between the concept of stars and what FSA does. I mean, I suppose our arrows look like falling stars as they come down - but that seems to be an asthetic point more than anything, and there is nothing about the qi we use for the technique or how we use it that is evocative of the astral concept as far I can tell. More objectively, we have also clearly seen that FSA is NOT an introduction to using Astral Qi - as evidenced by the fact that we've finished FSA and there is no such special element upgrade in sight.

I'm not sure why you'd think that there is no possible AS upgrade toward 'Storm element', or AE toward 'Abyss Element'. The former is more or less subjugated by the Argent element, arguably, but I don't doubt that many cultivators that didn't focus on the Argent way instead found a mastery of the Storm.

About FSA, it does have a astral concept, and we do use some of it. It is, however, not something Ling Qi focused about or had breakthrough about. Like how you could have FVM mastered without ever unlocking the music element, you can totally master FSA without unlocking the Star element, or IWA without Ice, or ASA without ash.

If, however, you are trying to unlock star/ice/ash, those arts should, I believe, provide a foundation to help with doing so. It probably isn't something many do before FSA+, or even there, but it's also something some would.

EDIT: You seem to be saying "themes don't matter", which is I think the opposite of the lesson we should be taking, here, which would be "themes matter".
 
I'm not sure why you'd think that there is no possible AS upgrade toward 'Storm element', or AE toward 'Abyss Element'. The former is more or less subjugated by the Argent element, arguably, but I don't doubt that many cultivators that didn't focus on the Argent way instead found a mastery of the Storm.

About FSA, it does have a astral concept, and we do use some of it. It is, however, not something Ling Qi focused about or had breakthrough about. Like how you could have FVM mastered without ever unlocking the music element, you can totally master FSA without unlocking the Star element, or IWA without Ice, or ASA without ash.

If, however, you are trying to unlock star/ice/ash, those arts should, I believe, provide a foundation to help with doing so. It probably isn't something many do before FSA+, or even there, but it's also something some would.

EDIT: You seem to be saying "themes don't matter", which is I think the opposite of the lesson we should be taking, here, which would be "themes matter".
I'm not saying it is impossible for AS to unlock the Storm Element or AE to unlock Abyss Element. I'm saying that by this metric you can point to literally any art and say that it encapsulates a hidden element.

You had previously claimed that "a lot of archive 1 art are meant as foundations", which implies that early archive arts are somehow special in that respect, and used the fact that the names matched concepts as evidence. I'm saying that the criteria by which you've done said matching is wide enough that you could find something for EVERY art - which challenges the idea that archive arts are in some way special.



Now, I don't know how easy it is to learn special elements. For all we know, the right paradigm could give us a Mist element and improve FVM, or a Storm element and improve AS, and so on. We haven't seen enough of the world to know. What I contest is the idea that the low level arts we've seen are somehow special along this axis, being more pedagogically useful for unlocking such elements than typical other arts would be.
 
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I'm not saying it is impossible for AS to unlock the Storm Element or AE to unlock Abyss Element. I'm saying that by this metric you can point to literally any art and say that it encapsulates a hidden element.

You had previously claimed that "a lot of archive 1 art are meant as foundations", which implies that early archive arts are somehow special in that respect, and used the fact that the names matched concepts as evidence. I'm saying that the criteria by which you've done said matching is wide enough that you could find something for EVERY art - which challenges the idea that archive arts are in some way special.



Now, I don't know how easy it is to learn special elements. For all we know, the right paradigm could give us a Mist element and improve FVM, or a Storm element and improve AS, and so on. We haven't seen enough of the world to know. What I contest is the idea that the low level arts we've seen are somehow special along this axis, being more pedagogically useful for unlocking such elements than typical other arts would be.
Ah, I expressed myself badly. I picked up archive level 1 art there for 2 reasons: because they are the ones we saw, and because we know that to go directly to archive level 3 we need significant mastery in related elements/theme not to get penalties.

So, there is a possibility that some archive level 3 arts already either need specific exotic elements unlocked, or need one to be fairly close to be able to unlock them. This was less to say 'archive level 1 is special' and more because I feel we have seen archive level 1 arts having such foundational arts.

As for "by this metric you can point to literally any art and say that it encapsulates a hidden element.", that's the point. My point was that most arts actually can have more specificity in their elemental make up, and someone with enough mastery of those specific themes could either unlock special elements thanks to breakthroughs or, if they have already done so, modify those arts to be slightly strong.

We know from @yrsillar that when we learn new music art they would have music meridians replacing some of the art's meridians, and I see no reason why someone who unlocked the 'Current' meridians thanks to a breakthrough he had when learning AC couldn't do the same with other melee art with a current theme.
 
Ah, I expressed myself badly. I picked up archive level 1 art there for 2 reasons: because they are the ones we saw, and because we know that to go directly to archive level 3 we need significant mastery in related elements/theme not to get penalties.

So, there is a possibility that some archive level 3 arts already either need specific exotic elements unlocked, or need one to be fairly close to be able to unlock them. This was less to say 'archive level 1 is special' and more because I feel we have seen archive level 1 arts having such foundational arts.

As for "by this metric you can point to literally any art and say that it encapsulates a hidden element.", that's the point. My point was that most arts actually can have more specificity in their elemental make up, and someone with enough mastery of those specific themes could either unlock special elements thanks to breakthroughs or, if they have already done so, modify those arts to be slightly strong.

We know from @yrsillar that when we learn new music art they would have music meridians replacing some of the art's meridians, and I see no reason why someone who unlocked the 'Current' meridians thanks to a breakthrough he had when learning AC couldn't do the same with other melee art with a current theme.
Alright. My disagreement was with that idea that the low-level archive-arts were somehow special in terms of pedagogical value.

If you are restrict your claims to the idea that most arts have the potential for a special element - well, I don't have any objection to such a conjecture. I don't think we have any evidence that this is indeed the case, but there is nothing refuting it either; it seems like a perfectly coherent way for the setting to work.
 
I'm not saying it is impossible for AS to unlock the Storm Element or AE to unlock Abyss Element. I'm saying that by this metric you can point to literally any art and say that it encapsulates a hidden element.

You had previously claimed that "a lot of archive 1 art are meant as foundations", which implies that early archive arts are somehow special in that respect, and used the fact that the names matched concepts as evidence. I'm saying that the criteria by which you've done said matching is wide enough that you could find something for EVERY art - which challenges the idea that archive arts are in some way special.



Now, I don't know how easy it is to learn special elements. For all we know, the right paradigm could give us a Mist element and improve FVM, or a Storm element and improve AS, and so on. We haven't seen enough of the world to know. What I contest is the idea that the low level arts we've seen are somehow special along this axis, being more pedagogically useful for unlocking such elements than typical other arts would be.

I can't find the relevant quotes from yrsillar, but we know that all arts are not equal, and not just in rarity and raw power:
Successor Arts (ie: FSA+) behave differently in how the power they grant is distributed relative to where you are in cultivating in (on the "beginning to mastery" axis).
The second category of "special" Arts are Cultivation Arts (ie: Argent Soul). I don't think i need to explain how different they are compared to regular fighting arts like FSA...

If there already are two category of Arts with specific proprieties then i don't see why there can't be a third special category of "Fundamental" Arts that have it's own specificity.
 
I can't find the relevant quotes from yrsillar, but we know that all arts are not equal, and not just in rarity and raw power:
Successor Arts (ie: FSA+) behave differently in how the power they grant is distributed relative to where you are in cultivating in (on the "beginning to mastery" axis).
The second category of "special" Arts are Cultivation Arts (ie: Argent Soul). I don't think i need to explain how different they are compared to regular fighting arts like FSA...

If there already are two category of Arts with specific proprieties then i don't see why there can't be a third special category of "Fundamental" Arts that have it's own specificity.
It would require there to be a hidden category involved that we have no evidence of at present. It isn't impossible, but we have absolutely no reason to believe such is the case at this time.

By Occam's Razor, simpler models are better, assuming they match our observations equally well. A model that has a divide between arts that are "Fundamental" and "Not Fundamental" is possible, but it has increased complexity, without matching our observations any better than a model without said divide. Accordingly, I don't see much reason to consider it.
 
If there already are two category of Arts with specific proprieties then i don't see why there can't be a third special category of "Fundamental" Arts that have it's own specificity.
I think the existence of "Fundamental" Arts depends a bit on how you define Fundamental. Does it mean, arts which are in Red, which lead into Successor Arts? Is it some kind of super generalized art based on some combination of the Imperial Eight which is meant to be taught to literally anyone, even a metaphorical talentless hack? The problem I see with a Fundamental Art set is that what fundamental is will vary depending on the Cyan who first made it.

Alright. My disagreement was with that idea that the low-level archive-arts were somehow special in terms of pedagogical value.

If you are restrict your claims to the idea that most arts have the potential for a special element - well, I don't have any objection to such a conjecture. I don't think we have any evidence that this is indeed the case, but there is nothing refuting it either; it seems like a perfectly coherent way for the setting to work.
In a completely different topic jump started by this, I thought of a question. If you are Cyan and trying to make Baby's First Art, why would you not use an art you already know to start?

An example would be FVM, but flipping Water for Fire, or Wind, and modifying the techniques to fit with those elements.

An additional thought I had about Art Construction in Cyan was an idle curiosity of: do we need to have a handful of blank meridians to act as a framework for the Art while we forge it in our Dantian?
 
I think she's the tallest of the new kids, yeah. Chu Song was taller, iirc. But she's old and doesn't count.
Ling Qi 's first impression of the other girl was that she was tall almost as tall as herself. It had been years since Ling Qi had had to look up didn't have to look down to meet the eyes of a girl in her age group. The second was that the other girl was big, in a way that Ling Qi wasn't. Ling Qi was pretty sure the dark skinned girls biceps were as thick as her own thighs.
@yrsillar had made a couple of typos there.
 
I think she's the tallest of the new kids, yeah. Chu Song was taller, iirc. But she's old and doesn't count.

Huh. Think I might look that up.


Ling Qi's first impression of the other girl was that she was tall. It had been years since Ling Qi had had to look up to meet the eyes of a girl in her age group. The second was that the other girl was big, in a way that Ling Qi wasn't. Ling Qi was pretty sure the dark skinned girls biceps were as thick as her own thighs.

I had forgotton about this. Still, Ling Qi has gotten a little taller since then.

Edit: Ling Qi'd
 
Year 43, week 43, Part 2
AN: This one scene got pretty long, and I figured folks would appreciate getting it sooner, rest will be up in couple days.


She was being ridiculous, Ling Qi knew. She had rushed down here, only to falter at the finish. There was no reason to hide and wait. She wasn't so awkward and lacking in social grace that she she couldn't even greet her Mother in public without causing a scene.

...Besides, as much as she might like to hug her Mother, looking at her now, mortal and frail… Ling Qi was pretty sure that she wouldn't want to do anything too sudden anyway. So, with that in mind, Ling Qi took a deep breath, composed herself and resumed walking forward. The guards noticed her approach first, to their credit. There was a fraction of a second where the two men watching the street she was approaching from tensed, but they seemed to recognize her. When the two clapped their fists together and bowed, it drew the attention of the others, including her Mother.

She almost hesitated at the sudden attention, and the shows of respect from men years older than her, but then her attention went back to her Mother, and she saw the alarm and fear in the older woman's eyes. The tension in her muscles as she prepared to kowtow was obvious. It might have hurt a little, but Ling Qi was sure that she wouldn't have recognized herself either.

"Mother, it's so good to see you again!" She called as cheerily as she could, as she swept past the bowing guards.

Her Mother's previous alarm dissolved into confused disbelief as the older woman froze in the middle of bowing her head. Ling Qi could practically read her thought process as her eyes flicked back and forth, searching for anyone else who Ling Qi's words could have referred to. Of course, her Mother was a well composed woman, so the whole thing only took a second or so. It made Ling Qi even more aware of how much her senses had changed.

"Ling Qi?" Her Mother asked, daring to raise her eyes slightly, she was still worried and disbelieving, and her words were quiet and hesitant.

She wasn't surprised that her Mother was so worried about giving offense. Her only experience with cultivators… as far as Ling Qi knew, were those rough types that actually made use of the establishment she had worked at. "I know I've changed quite a lot," Ling Qi replied, instead of voicing any of that, as she came to a stop in front of the older woman, her gown swaying in the phantom breeze. "...Please raise your head," she added more quietly as, after a moment's hesitation, she reached out to take one of her Mother's worn hands in her own.

Finally, her Mother straightened enough to look up and meet her eyes, and though there was still a mix of emotion there, she could see the recognition as well. "Ling Qi," the older woman breathed for a second time. "You are truly…"

"Momma?" Ling Qi's attention was drawn downward as a much younger voice spoke up. Looking down, she saw the little girl half hidden behind her Mother looking up at her with wide eyes. "Is that a fairy?" Her grammar and pronunciation was still childish and poorly enunciated, but in a way Ling Qi found cute.

Ling Qingge glanced helplessly at her, a shadow of her worry still present, but Ling Qi just smiled back, and after a moment, her Mother smiled back, even if the expression was a wan thing. It seemed to help that introducing her younger daughter seemed to give her something concrete to fall back on. "Biyu, this is your Elder Sister Ling Qi."

Ling Qi reluctantly released her Mother's hand, in favor of lowering herself into a crouch to meet the younger girl eye to eye. "Hello Little Sister, I'm sorry we haven't met before," she said lightly, briefly glancing back up to meet her Mother's eyes. There was more than one layer to that apology.

Biyu blinked shuffling a step away from Mother to look at her more closely, her lips turning down in a childish frown. "Pretty Sister," she said proclaiming her judgement. "Will Biyu sparkle?"

She was never going to hear the end of that was she? "Maybe someday," she said, patting the little girl on the head, with as feather light of a touch as she could manage. She stood up again, meeting her Mother's eyes. "Why don't we go inside. There is no reason for us all to stand outside in the sun, while these g… fellows take care of the luggage," she almost slipped into more casual speech there.

"If it will not be any trouble," her Mother hedged, glancing at the guards, who appeared to be studiously not paying direct attention to them. There were few curious civilian stragglers… and at least one gray robed outer disciple that Ling Qi could see, though. "I do not wish to impose on anyone." The words seemed almost mechanical, a wrote response often repeated.

Ling Qi looked to her right, meeting the eyes of one of the two men directly guarding her Mother, they were both mid second realm, with more potent qi than similarly ranked disciples she knew. The benefit of experience she supposed. The rest of the entourage was still taking care of the carriage and luggage. "It will not be any trouble, right?"

The man bowed carefully one hand clasped in the other. "Of course not Lady Ling, we will stand guard where ever you have need of us."

Ling Qi pretended not to notice the flicker in her Mother's eyes, it seemed that she was having a rough time processing the situation still. "Well, then, I know a nice little teahouse in only a few streets from here. I think you deserve to have something nice after such a trying journey Mother," the better part of a week stuck in a small place with a child Biyu's age. Ling Qi did not feel that she was exaggerating.

"...Of course, thank you very much Ling Qi," Ling Qingge replied with a hesitant smile. Ling Qi hoped a nice, mellow blend would help calm her nerves.

Cai was already getting to her, wasn't she?

Acquiring a private room at the nearby establishment was the easy part, Ling Qi mused. Figuring out how to talk to her Mother again was much harder, even once they had left the guards to stand outside the door. Mother seemed as unsure as she was, and Ling Qi did not miss the glances the older woman stole at her now and then, in what was probably the closest the older woman could really come to fidgeting.

Biyu was the only one not particularly affected by the atmosphere, quickly distracted by the flowering plants and silk painting decorating the rooms walls. "There's nothing dangerous in here," Ling Qi said, noticing her Mother about to call Biyu back. It would take more than a three year old mortal girl to damage anything in a room meant for cultivators as well, not that she was particularly concerned by that.

"As you say," her Mother said quietly, the instinctive air of submission her Mother gave off irked her a little, but that feeling wasn't directed at the woman beside her. "Ling Qi, I do not…"

Whatever she was going to say was cut off as Ling Qi wrapped the shorter woman in a hug. Ling Qi was careful, she was never more aware of the power her cultivation than this moment, with her arms wrapped around a woman who was no more durable than a bundle of sticks to her. "I'm sorry Mom," she said softly.

Ling Qingge had stiffened in alarm at first, but those words seemed to erase her tension, and after a moment, Ling Qi felt her Mother return her embrace. "Foolish girl, what have you to apologize for?" Her voice was choked and uneven with emotion.

"Not appreciating the things you did for me. Leaving you alone," Ling Qi said, closing her eyes. It seemed so obvious in hindsight, teaching her to read, the strict education, those were not the actions of an uncaring parent, even her Mother's fretting over Ling Qi's feminine lackings were hardly unreasonable in that light

"I did little enough, and you have grown beyond my every expectation," her Mother replied, defeated, leaving unsaid the fact that Ling Qi had done it almost totally without her. "Your choice was the right one. I could not have…"

"Maybe not, but you would have tried," Ling Qi replied firmly, reluctantly letting go of her Mother. "And… I appreciate that, now." She glanced over to Biyu, but the little girl was busily peering between the fronds of the potted plant in the far corner. "Let me be the one to do so now."

Her Mother sighed, stepping back from their embrace as well, a touch of moisture at the corner of her eyes. "Have I truly grown so old already?" She asked, a touch of real humor in her voice. "That I must give myself over to my daughters care?"

"Of course not," Ling Qi replied with a smile of her own. "Your daughter merely wishes to share her great fortune."

There was a faint knock at the door then, in the style Ling Qi recognized as the attendant arriving to take their order. "Let's… sit down then, we have quite a lot to talk about."

Well, Ling Qi did at any rate, after they had given their order, Ling QI began to explain in more detail, her experience over the past months, and her situation as things stood now, her vassalage to Cai Renxiang, and everything else, pausing only for as long as it took their attendant to lay out the tea and leave.

"Such things are difficult to comprehend," Ling Qingge said, looking down at her cup, as Ling Qi finally fell silent. Biyu had since fallen asleep on the padded bench that lined the wall, the fatigue from the trip catching up to her. "That you would speak directly to the heiress of such an exalted house, let alone be recruited by her… You must excuse me, such things are beyond my experience."

Ling Qi was glad that she had not references Meizhen or their… interpersonal troubles. Her mother was too young to have heart troubles yet. "Yet, I did notice that you had some knowledge of nobility," Ling Qi replied carefully. "You have not said as such directly, but…"

Her Mother's expression grew more tired, but she nodded without looking up. Ling Qi hoped that her Mother could unlearn that habit one day. "It is… a long tale, but you deserve to know of such matters. I cannot rightly consider you a child any longer."

"There is no need to get into painful details Mother," Ling Qi replied, she didn't want to burden the older woman even more on her first day. They had plenty of time to talk.

"I will spare such things," Ling Qingge replied, falling silent as she considered her words. She sipping quietly from the cup in her hands before finally raising her eyes. "I was born under the name He," she began self deprecation visible in her eyes. "They were no family of import, just one of the many servant clans beneath the Liu family that govern Tonghou and the surrounding regions."

Ling Qi nodded, that explained why her Mother would have the education she clearly did. Bigger clans usually had a bunch of unranked mortal and common cultivator clans beneath them after all, taking care of day to day minutiae, or so she was learning as she slowly educated herself on such matters. "Were any of them cultivators?"

"A bare handful, but I was never considered for such things," Ling Qingge replied shaking her head. "So I was not educated in such matters. I will not bore you by speaking of that life… but one day I caught the attention of a young master of the Liu. My father was overjoyed of course, and quickly began moving to have me recognized as a concubine, but being a foolish, rebellious girl… I ran," her Mother actually met her eyes then, a slightly bitter smile on her lips. "You see why I could not be angry at you, Ling Qi?"

"I suppose so," Ling Qi said, glancing away uncomfortably. "If I may ask, what happened?"

"I lived freely for a few months," her Mother replied wistfully. "I made questionable choices… though I do not regret you Ling Qi, some of the decisions involved were not my best." She shook her head, her eyes dropping back to the tabletop. "I could escape notice forever though. My father expelled me from the family, in hopes of limiting the Liu's retaliation. He succeeded I suppose, the man who had wanted me was satisfied with ensuring that that the only occupation I could find was the one which he felt I deserved."

Ah, her teacup had frozen, she would have to apologize to the owner, Ling Qi thought absently. Thankfully the effect was localized, so Mother hadn't been disturbed. One thing stood out to her though, an opening to a question she had never really considered, beyond assuming the answer to be 'one of her clients'. "If I may ask, Mother, you said that came, before…"

"Your Father was an entertainer from the south, who came to the city with a trade caravan," Ling Qingge replied, understanding her question immediately. "He promised me that he would help me leave the city," she continued, closing her eyes. "A lie of course, he vanished the day before father found me, let that be a lesson Ling Qi, not to accept the promises of men without assurances."

Ling Qi sighed. She hadn't expected anything happy of course, but it was a little depressing. "It doesn't matter now," she replied firmly. You are my Mother, and anyone who wants to cause you trouble will have to go through me," she continued with confidence. She supposed that was one certain benefit of Cai Renxiang's patronage. She doubted such a small grudge would be worth crossing that line for a viscount family.

For them anyway. Ling Qi wasn't sure how she felt yet.

Mother seemed less sure, but she simply accepted Ling Qi's word with an acknowledging dip of her head. Their conversation turned to lighter things after that, avoiding more serious topics. By the time they left the teahouse more than an hour had passed, and Biyu had stirred from her nap, full of energy once more. She escorted her Mother to the house the Sect had arranged for them, a tasteful two floor building with a small garden and a couple of servants to take care of things. After looking over the defensive formations and giving the guards a quick review, she left, promising that she would return to help her Mother with arranging things the following day.

Ling Qi felt lighter than she had in some time
 
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That was a great scene, @yrsillar. Mom's continued confusion and wariness interplayed with Ling Qi's concern well.

Also, while our dad has at least been ID'd, him "disappearing" is such a fucking obvious story setup I'd be more surprised if he wasn't story relevant than not.

Still, poor mom...
 
how about no? We simply ignore their existence and not do something stupid like that.

I mean I'd like it for the plot hook of one of them running into Ling.

"Your Father was an entertainer from the south, who came to the city with a trade caravan," Ling Qingge replied, understanding her question immediately. "He promised me that he would help me leave the city," she continued, closing her eyes. "A lie of course, he vanished the day before father found me, let that be a lesson Ling Qi, not to accept the promises of men without assurances."

Dad was a Carnie...
 
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*Hrk* my heart...

9/10, needs more headpats and hugs.

Kinda want to write an omake from the guard's PoV, their thoughts on the job, the meeting, and the advice Ling Qi gives them about the defences of the place that are obviously coming from someone used to bypassing them.
 
Ahhhh. So do we ignore the bug, or crush it with impunity? Do we include Mother in the decision makin process, or leave her in the dark? And most important of all, is little sister a possible cultivator and can she sparkle like her older sister?

These things stress Ling Qi too much. She should give little sister and zengui more head pats.
 
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