With how the Gargant consumes fuel, it makes more sense as an assassination thing than an endurance battle thing though. Which is itself very silly in a different way.
For us? Yeah, using it for the shortest possible amount of time is the only real way to use it. Assassination is questionable however given that moving it into place while deactivated and keeping it unnoticed will be tough. Even then I am sure there are more cost effective options.
Used properly however it isn't a short term tool at all. The entire point is that its powered by human sacrifice, thus allowing it to last a long time without actually spending anything presuming you have some prisoners lying around you aren't particularly attached to.
So where we in war might be able to personally keep one up for like 10 minutes for a whopping cost of 500 yellow, using it properly you could just sacrifice a dozen prisoners a few days (hours?) earlier and have a dozen Gargants for the entire battle without needing a strong cultivator to control it.
Actually, I went back to read the fluff of FVM, and I noticed it specifically talks about "mischievous and hungry spirits that wait in the dark, and the loneliness of the wanderer's path". So FVM and PLR could actually harmonise really well, with a kind of theme of lonely traveller ensorcelled by mischievous spirits at some kind of fairy dance. Like those stories where fairies literally make the poor sod dance to exhaustion or even death. Or being all alone in a crowd of playfully malicious spirits.
With how the Gargant consumes fuel, it makes more sense as an assassination thing than an endurance battle thing though. Which is itself very silly in a different way.
Presumably the human sacrifice method is more efficient, because if you're powering it with human lives then it's going to be functioning like an Avatar of Khaine. Keeps going until it runs out of shit to murder.
For more moral cultivators they'd need some other power source.
No matter," he made a sharp gesture, dismissing the subject. "I am Liao Zhu, practitioner of the Soaring Sanguine Crescent, the Twinned Star Discourse, and the Sable Moon's Veil. Introduce yourself."
Ling Qi straightened her shoulders unconsciously, the young man's words felt odd, they were commanding, but she couldn't manage to muster up any offense at the blatant demand. She supposed sharing the names of her arts was fine.
Someone speculated that this was a social art that forced us to speak, but if that's the case it looks like there's a certain requirement needed: namely that the user proffer their own information first.
Someone speculated that this was a social art that forced us to speak, but if that's the case it looks like there's a certain requirement needed: namely that the user proffer their own information first.
It's possible, it doesn't seem to be a necessarily malicious one since it is facilitating benign communication though if it is an art it could likely easily be turned to interrogation situations or possibly used as a taunt/challenge art.
Though there are several other explanations, including the one that jumps out at me; which is he's a Senior Brother and if he sounds commanding then Ling Qi is knowledgeable enough to instinctively respond.
I will jump in before the seed gets planted in anyones heads and say that social arts are not any kind of mind control, anymore than a highly charismatic speaker is.
I will jump in before the seed gets planted in anyones heads and say that social arts are not any kind of mind control, anymore than a highly charismatic speaker is.
Huh, I know strong cultivators are normally pretty good at smashing mooks, but I wonder how good is normal? I hope Ling Qi gets a chance to kill a literal army during her military service. She would be stupendously good at holding a pass I think.
I have to admit that those scenes tend to be one of things I dislike the most about Xianxia. They tend to be fun the first time you encounter them but I at least have long since grown tired of them and the ever escalating power phenomena (as well as a general ineptitude when it comes to scale/numbers) they stand for where anybody a level or two below you is as important/influential as a speck of dirt. And I am always wondering why anybody even bothers with said armies if a single "high-level" individual (and it is not like people of that power-level are that rare in this genre) can destroy them without an issue.
Basically, perception is not one attribute, but 2, Wits + Composure. So a resolve test is 'resolve', as well as any bonus dice to resolve tests (AM, TRF). Perception tests, OTOH, are Wits + Composure + any bonus dice to perception (AM, AE). bonus to perception also seem somewhat easier to get in passives, and have dedicated techs for it too (Discerning Gaze).
PLR in particular almost certainly is an illusion, and so gets another +3 from passive of AM, and another +4 from discerning gaze compared to normal perception tests.
I feel like this might mean that Illustrious Phantasmal Festival needs a (fairly) small buff, given it's an early green art with an extremely high entry barrier, both in terms of successes and qi. As it is whilst the passives are nice I can't see us using it much.
Of course I can't see enemy dicepools, so we may be overestimating peer types, or underestimating the qi cost of green arts in general.
I have to admit that those scenes tend to be one of things I dislike the most about Xianxia. They tend to be fun the first time you encounter them but I at least have long since grown tired of them and the ever escalating power phenomena (as well as a general ineptitude when it comes to scale/numbers) they stand for where anybody a level or two below you is as important/influential as a speck of dirt. And I am always wondering why anybody even bothers with said armies if a single "high-level" individual (and it is not like people of that power-level are that rare in this genre) can destroy them without an issue.
Well, it's not too bad if things are done appropriately.
Like, we're really good against large groups of lower level enemies, because we have a lot of arts that are really good there. If we achieve that by being worse in single combat against peers, that's arguably a reasonable tradeoff. Similarly, you could have many cultivators who are specced for duels, and as such would be much worse against large groups.
The problem comes when we can do both things at the same time without too much effort.
I feel like this might mean that Illustrious Phantasmal Festival needs a (fairly) small buff, given it's an early green art with an extremely high entry barrier, both in terms of successes and qi. As it is whilst the passives are nice I can't see us using it much.
Of course I can't see enemy dicepools, so we may be overestimating peer types, or underestimating the qi cost of green arts in general.
IPF is essentially dodge, which is really strong as long as it can have a minimal of impact. PLR1 is only 50 successes, so it being lacklustre against non-mooks makes sense, and LW is still fairly strong (but gated behind IPF).
As long as IPF scale very well with levels of the art, and FVM itself increases its perception debuff, it should at least not be useless, and probably be very strong. Hell, current IPF actually is not horrible against Perception 15 enemies, which should be what a weak peer that has just the one perception art not focused on illusion could have ( composure 4 + Wits 4 + Passive 3 + Tech 4) even after using a tech. The problem is that mostly anyone we'll fight won't be like that.
I'm being a wimp however, as IPF not being useless against peers is really important considering that all other PLR techs are gated behind it, and PLR seems like an art that deals with peers. As such, using a tech that we know is useless in the current fight just for using another tech next round is something that we probably won't ever want to do. I guess it could be a kind of "one tech to deal with the minion of the enemy and all others against the enemy", but even that is counter productive if PLR is going to be our go to for peer root/control.
And I am always wondering why anybody even bothers with said armies if a single "high-level" individual (and it is not like people of that power-level are that rare in this genre) can destroy them without an issue.
IPF is essentially dodge, which is really strong as long as it can have a minimal of impact. PLR1 is only 50 successes, so it being lacklustre against non-mooks makes sense, and LW is still fairly strong (but gated behind IPF).
As long as IPF scale very well with levels of the art, and FVM itself increases its perception debuff, it should at least not be useless, and probably be very strong. Hell, current IPF actually is not horrible against Perception 15 enemies, which should be what a weak peer that has just the one perception art not focused on illusion could have ( composure 4 + Wits 4 + Passive 3 + Tech 4) even after using a tech. The problem is that mostly anyone we'll fight won't be like that.
I'm being a wimp however, as IPF not being useless against peers is really important considering that all other PLR techs are gated behind it, and PLR seems like an art that deals with peers. As such, using a tech that we know is useless in the current fight just for using another tech next round is something that we probably won't ever want to do. I guess it could be a kind of "one tech to deal with the minion of the enemy and all others against the enemy", but even that is counter productive if PLR is going to be our go to for peer root/control.
I admit I'm going mostly off my gut, but it feels just a bit off. I'd have less problem if this were a late yellow art, or if the qi cost was less prohibitive, or even if it had the water or darknes element mixed in (it has fog EDIT: "Mist" in the description after all).*
And 50 successes isn't cheap. It's two actions or so without tutoring, and the next level is 4(ish) actions away unless we get reliable access to green stones. When we already have an action shortage.
Honestly I think my issue is partly due to the origins of the art. It has really, really nice passives, but and I like the idea behind it, but it fells like another hodgepodge art to add to our build. It's pure yang/moon, which Ling Qi isn't really specced for and we have no cost reductions for. It has a massive initial cost both in terms of Qi and Meridian occupancy, and is not very useful for fighting anyone who isn't weaker than us already. More dodge is nice but it's prohibitively expensive as anything but a mass mook mulcher.
The theme and passives work, but for an art specifically gifted to Ling Qi I'd have hoped the techniques would fit her specialties a bit better.
I also wonder if the problem is that the only 'peers' we see are the monsters and ourselves (and Ji Rong once). It makes it really, really dificult to gauge how good something is.
Also, we should upgrade our flute again now we're green. We haven't added to it for ages.
*For example with our current equipment, a water element would reduce the qi cost by 4, making a combined total of the two techniques 7 qi. A darkness art would actually push this to 6, which would make it extremely attractive.
The other problem with the Test system is how it doesn't encourage build synergy. Because Test DC are flat values purely dependent on the tech itself, there's nothing we can do to improve them (unless we can start picking up arts with Test DC boosters?). Compare this to, say, OwS and Elegy's Despair of the Lost. Because these scale off stealth, they encourage us to improve our stealth and get other arts to boost this. This also means we sacrifice other things and focus our build, giving it character.
There is also an asymmetry here compared to defensive arts - which do boost test dice. Like, look at Elegy's resolve test. Powerful at the start, but as people get more resolve and train things like AM it rapidly gets left in the dust.
... that being said, if we could get, say, spiritual buff arts that increase Test DC then that could change things. That being said, tests can be pretty varied, so it can be hard to say what things would apply to them.
I admit I'm going mostly off my gut, but it feels just a bit off. I'd have less problem if this were a late yellow art, or if the qi cost was less prohibitive, or even if it had the water or darknes element mixed in (it has fog EDIT: "Mist" in the description after all).*
And 50 successes isn't cheap. It's two actions or so without tutoring, and the next level is 4(ish) actions away unless we get reliable access to green stones. When we already have an action shortage.
Honestly I think my issue is partly due to the origins of the art. It has really, really nice passives, but and I like the idea behind it, but it fells like another hodgepodge art to add to our build. It's pure yang/moon, which Ling Qi isn't really specced for and we have no cost reductions for. It has a massive initial cost both in terms of Qi and Meridian occupancy, and is not very useful for fighting anyone who isn't weaker than us already. More dodge is nice but it's prohibitively expensive as anything but a mass mook mulcher.
The theme and passives work, but for an art specifically gifted to Ling Qi I'd have hoped the techniques would fit her specialties a bit better.
I also wonder if the problem is that the only 'peers' we see are the monsters and ourselves (and Ji Rong once). It makes it really, really dificult to gauge how good something is.
Also, we should upgrade our flute again now we're green. We haven't added to it for ages.
*For example with our current equipment, a water element would reduce the qi cost by 4, making a combined total of the two techniques 7 qi. A darkness art would actually push this to 6, which would make it extremely attractive.
Yeah, the element spread makes things really awkward. Not just when it comes to Qi reduction, but we actually get +7 to dispel clash with water/darkness. This would make PLR much stronger.
As is, you are right that it's going to take quite a few actions for it to maybe be worth using at all during the tournament (with a probable 'no'), which means we'll be gambling on throwing away something like 6 actions (7 if we count the one we just took, more if we count the Tower there, though getting the art at all is probably really great for inner sect) considering we need 3 meridians too.
Success wise, our current PLR cultivation speed is Talent 6 + YSS 35 + Friends 5 + Site 5 + EPC 10 + Pills 10 + Lung 10 = 81 dice + 5 autos (Moon 5), so it's an average of 49.995 successes.
The theme and passives work, but for an art specifically gifted to Ling Qi I'd have hoped the techniques would fit her specialties a bit better.
I also wonder if the problem is that the only 'peers' we see are the monsters and ourselves (and Ji Rong once). It makes it really, really dificult to gauge how good something is.
Well, part of it is I think that we're still in the "working out our foundation" stage, and the spirits are helping us there. I mean, it won't be a problem once we get more moon arts (which we will) it's just awkward right now.
I have to admit that those scenes tend to be one of things I dislike the most about Xianxia. They tend to be fun the first time you encounter them but I at least have long since grown tired of them and the ever escalating power phenomena (as well as a general ineptitude when it comes to scale/numbers) they stand for where anybody a level or two below you is as important/influential as a speck of dirt. And I am always wondering why anybody even bothers with said armies if a single "high-level" individual (and it is not like people of that power-level are that rare in this genre) can destroy them without an issue.
A high level cultivator is good, and powerful, and able to hold a pass. But an army is numerous, redundant, flexible, and durable. If you have an army you can guard an entire mountain range and the cities it stands over, while providing patrols for groups of travelers moving through your territory. You can do a thousand things at once with an army, while with a high level cultivator you can only do one thing.
Well, part of it is I think that we're still in the "working out our foundation" stage, and the spirits are helping us there. I mean, it won't be a problem once we get more moon arts (which we will) it's just awkward right now.
Well yes to a degree but we have at least something of a foundation established, and it would be nice if the superpowerful, insightful, moon spirit had given us something that fit into our elemental build a bit more. It especially irritates when 'mist' is literally in the technique description and it's already taking up three meridians. Having one be water or darkness wouldn't really hurt it and would make narrative sense.
It'd actually be pretty good technique wise despite relatively low test DC if it fit into our price reduction elements.
Well yes to a degree but we have at least something of a foundation established, and it would be nice if the superpowerful, insightful, moon spirit had given us something that fit into our elemental build a bit more. It especially irritates when 'mist' is literally in the technique description and it's already taking up three meridians. Having one be water or darkness wouldn't really hurt it and would make narrative sense.
It'd actually be pretty good technique wise despite relatively low test DC if it fit into our price reduction elements.
A high level cultivator is good, and powerful, and able to hold a pass. But an army is numerous, redundant, flexible, and durable. If you have an army you can guard an entire mountain range and the cities it stands over, while providing patrols for groups of travelers moving through your territory. You can do a thousand things at once with an army, while with a high level cultivator you can only do one thing.
And that would matter if those cultivators couldn't typically sense a butterfly a "thousand li" away, clone himself or throw up a formation that covers that area with little more than a handwave (or if those cities and the people in it had any sort of importance beyond being numbers in the first case!) etc... And besides that I wasn't talking as much about the mechanical balance side of things as much as of the narrative and character development/interactions (as well as general believability) which in my eyes tend to get crippled precisely because of those developments/trends.
But I don't really want to argue this point sinc eI am pretty tired so it is probably best to put it down to me generally having grown to dislike xianxia...
The other problem with the Test system is how it doesn't encourage build synergy. Because Test DC are flat values purely dependent on the tech itself, there's nothing we can do to improve them (unless we can start picking up arts with Test DC boosters?). Compare this to, say, OwS and Elegy's Despair of the Lost. Because these scale off stealth, they encourage us to improve our stealth and get other arts to boost this. This also means we sacrifice other things and focus our build, giving it character.
There is also an asymmetry here compared to defensive arts - which do boost test dice. Like, look at Elegy's resolve test. Powerful at the start, but as people get more resolve and train things like AM it rapidly gets left in the dust.
... that being said, if we could get, say, spiritual buff arts that increase Test DC then that could change things. That being said, tests can be pretty varied, so it can be hard to say what things would apply to them.
I for one wouldn't be surprised if the Perception test became a clash versus our stealth at some point, although probably not next level and thus probably not before the tournament.
Note however there IS build symmetry even without this in that FVM decreases perception dice for our opponents.
The other problem with the Test system is how it doesn't encourage build synergy. Because Test DC are flat values purely dependent on the tech itself, there's nothing we can do to improve them (unless we can start picking up arts with Test DC boosters?). Compare this to, say, OwS and Elegy's Despair of the Lost. Because these scale off stealth, they encourage us to improve our stealth and get other arts to boost this. This also means we sacrifice other things and focus our build, giving it character.
There is also an asymmetry here compared to defensive arts - which do boost test dice. Like, look at Elegy's resolve test. Powerful at the start, but as people get more resolve and train things like AM it rapidly gets left in the dust.
... that being said, if we could get, say, spiritual buff arts that increase Test DC then that could change things. That being said, tests can be pretty varied, so it can be hard to say what things would apply to them.
The imbalance runs deeper than you imply. Besides Dispels which have been rebalanced with the latest changes, the other test mechanics we've seen are either too strong or too weak. Grapple and Perception in particular:
Grapple/strength:
For most people grapple escape would be a pure str test. Net arrows impose a DC12 grapple, which is all but impossible to escape for even Late Yellows since escape arts are far from trivial (we currently have a 46% chance to escape one, 78% if we equip PLR)
Perception:
Base pool scales off of wits+composure. We're currently rolling 16-20 dice without trying too hard (more against illusions), whereas someone like Liling's spirit rolled 30 dice while tracking us down. If we're inside FVM then enemies may suffer another -3 perception from Diapason and -1 from Low Light. Our woodwind specialty effectively rises some of these by 1.
Compare this to our offensive perception tests:
Diapason prevent escape - DC3. Basically useless against anyone but chaff. Even Yan Renshu's mid-yellow Worms could clear this one with a bit of luck.
Illustrious Phantasmal Festival - DC5. Better, but still mostly useless against peers, at least compared to the next one.
Elegy single-target - DC based on our stealth roll. With current dice-in-mist of , we're talking about 21 dice+2 autos, which averages at imposing a DC10.4, or DC12 if we include the debuffs as effective dice. Basically inescapable for weaker targets and effective against peers.
Basically, our "pass DCX test" techs and tools are either overpowered or useless in practice. FVM and PLR being weak against peer-level opponents is fine, but the problem is that "peer level" is a moving target, and for FVM at least we're at the point where even chaff can break out of something which by all rights should be a death sentence.
EDIT: so dot dice are apparently still a thing, this affects grapple escape numbers; correct ones are 72% and 90% respectively. Net arrows aren't a big threat to us, but an early Green without an escape tech is gonna be screwed still.
You know... looking at all the numbers people are quoting and people's complaints that the test is too easy to pass got me thinking. Those numbers don't seem quite right. I seem to be correct. The numbers aren't right. So here's my attempt at breaking down Ling Qi's perception and what my expectations are for what our peers will have in regards to perception.
First off, Perception tests are a combination of Wit and Composure, along with passives, actives, and talismans. Ling Qi has a passive from AE that grants +4 towards targets touching the ground. Everything else comes from AM. So lets look at AM.
Attributes: Mountain, Lake, Balanced
Current Meridians: Headx2, Spine
Needed Meridians: Head(5)
Max Level: 5
The early form of the Sects defensive and perceptive arts. Through inner tranquility and surety of self, allows the user to defend against and dispel enemy illusions and crippling techniques as well. Through clarity of mind it allows the user to judge with world with sharp and clear eyes.
Passive Effects
-Adds three dice to all tests and clashes to resist or bypass illusion effects
-Adds three dice to all perception tests
-Adds two dice to composure and resolve tests as well as dispel clashes
-Adds four dice to survival, investigation, and empathy tests
-Adds two dice to spiritual defenses
-Allows the user to sense qi, out to one hundred meters away. The user may tell the cultivation realm of living things of their own stage or lower, and the realm of those higher.
-Allows the user, on a successful perception test, to determine a living things primary elemental alignments, spirit binding connections and overall level of qi.
Serene Reflection: oo
Cost: 5 qi
Instant
The user balances and cycles their qi, expelling external influences. Dispels up to two negative effects from the user after a successful clash, and grants three additional die to spiritual defense against the effects caster for three turns.
Discerning Gaze: oo
Cost: 4 Qi
Instant, response
Channeling qi into their senses the user greatly enhances their ability to discern the truth of the world, gaining four additional dice on all perception and empathy tests for the length of a scene, in addition if the user is under the effects of an illusion or other sense affecting technique, they receive an immediate attempt to break out of it, with a four die bonus.
Tranquil Rebuke: ooo
Cost 6 qi
Instant, response
Centering themselves, the user finds serenity, and in doing, rises above the world, as the mountain stands above the earth. Though this state is short lived, any spiritual technique which targets the user suffers harsh repercussions if their technique fails to find purchase. When used, adds four dice to the users spiritual defense. If the user wins such a clash, the attacker suffers one point of perfect lethal damage, as well as suffering a three die penalty to their own defenses for the next turn.
So looking at it, AM provides another +3 to perception passively. This means that Ling Qi's perception, passively, is
Wit + Composure + AE + AM = ???
4 + 5 + 4 + 3 = 16.
Should we use Discerning Gaze, a technique in AM, then our perception is increased by another 4 making it
4 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 4 = 20.
So... where are people coming up with 25 or 27 dice? It seems that there is confusion regarding the first passive of AM and what Discerning Gaze actually does that leads to these numbers because if we got trapped in PLR, we would have 20 dice to work with at the moment, and no more.
If we were to try to resist or bypass the PLR illusion, then these dice would apply, but at that point, we wouldn't be doing a perception test imposed by the illusion, it would be a separate test entirely. I don't know what the check for that test would be, but adding dice to "all tests and clashes to resist or bypass illusion effects" does not mean that we get +3 dice when we are playing the same game as the illusion, which is what the 5 perception success test in PLR seems to be.
Discerning Gaze: oo
Cost: 4 Qi
Instant, response
Channeling qi into their senses the user greatly enhances their ability to discern the truth of the world, gaining four additional dice on all perception and empathy tests for the length of a scene, in addition if the user is under the effects of an illusion or other sense affecting technique, they receive an immediate attempt to break out of it, with a four die bonus.
Should a person use this when under the Effect of PLR, then they would receive a 4 dice bonus to perception for the length of the battle, as well as a separate bonus for breaking free of PLR's effects. I don't know how this would work, but I imagine that they would get one free shot and the illusions would assert themselves. Or they would get a chance to destroy PLR's effects and we would have to recast it. What they don't get, is an additional 4 dice bonus to perception through illusions.
AM's additional illusion bonuses apply to tests or clashes to resist, dispell, or bypass illusion attempts. They do not give a bonus to perception tests imposed by the illusions. If we are to use Ling Qi's perception as the standard, where there are two arts that give passives to perception as well as a strong technique to improve it, then I'm going to say that the average perception for the tournament will be 20 dice or lower. Sure, Sun/Cai/Bai might have more, but I don't think Chu Song/Ji Rong/Kang/GG will have more than 20.
If we were to try to resist or bypass the PLR illusion, then these dice would apply, but at that point, we wouldn't be doing a perception test imposed by the illusion, it would be a separate test entirely. I don't know what the check for that test would be, but adding dice to "all tests and clashes to resist or bypass illusion effects" does not mean that we get +3 dice when we are playing the same game as the illusion, which is what the 5 perception success test in PLR seems to be.
I don't read it like that. I would read that as basically applying to all anti-illusion rolls. "resist" means we get the bonus when we're trying to resist having an illusion be cast on us in the first place (i.e. initial clash), while "bypass" would basically be all attempts to see through illusions. If you're going to say that perception rolls against illusions are something different, then I don't know how you'd be interpreting that at all.
I don't read it like that. I would read that as basically applying to all anti-illusion rolls. "resist" means we get the bonus when we're trying to resist having an illusion be cast on us in the first place (i.e. initial clash), while "bypass" would basically be all attempts to see through illusions. If you're going to say that perception rolls against illusions are something different, then I don't know how you'd be interpreting that at all.
Yeah... I'm not following you on that interpretation. I honestly can't see how you would come to that interpretation.
Sure, resisting an illusion attempt is resisting being affected by one, but that doesn't apply to PLR as there is no clash or test to not be affected by it. If you are in the area, you are affected by it.
As for "bypass" the illusion, that would mean to ignore all effects of the illusion that has already taken root, or that already exist. So that it doesn't affect you. If you bypass an illusion, then that illusion can't affect you.
The perception test implied by PLR is clearly something different, as even upon a success the illusion still affects you. Evident by the -2 to dice even upon a successful pass of its test.
In other words, resisting and bypassing an illusion is something you do to an illusion, while the perception test of PLR is something the illusion imposes upon you.
