Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

Yeah, the first solid piece of evidence that enlightenment and superhuman intellect doesn't help you make good decisions. It's one thing to rebuke a powerful clan once in a while. It's another thing entirely to frame one of their top up and comers to get them executed unless you intend to walk that line forever. Because the Bai have long memories, and they're not likely to forget those who tried to gutstab them while they were down.

Well, that, or having a solution to them waking Grandmother Serpent when they realize that their enemies will never allow them to rise again.
I kind of think you're looking at this backwards. The Bai are a solid piece of evidence that enlightenment and superhuman intellect doesn't make you make good decisions.

As a clan the Bai have a reputation for never forgetting a slight, seemingly coming from their snake heritage. By that measure repeatedly kicking them when they're down is a perfectly sensible move if you've ever offended them in some way, because the Bai will fuck over everyone who 'insulted' them if they get back to the top, and will devote themselves over years, decades or centuries to doing so.

Plus grandmother snake is not something you wake lightly. Given what we've seen of Cui it's perfectly possible that Grandmother snake horribly kills anyone who wakes her up for the insult of poking her hard enough to wake her. I think it was also implied that she was powerful enough that waking her causes natural disasters, possibly wiping out anyone of her own side who happens to be in the area. Finally, she isn't the only sublime ancestor in the empire, she could eventually be brought down.

So maybe you can't actually wipe out the Bai. But keeping them as far down as possible without convincing them it's bad enough to risk MAD makes a fair degree of sense once you're their enemy. Plus fear based reputation, someone, somewhere probably had their mother/father/grandfather/cousin horribly killed and is just as devoted to revenge as any Bai.

Waking Grandma Snake always struck me as the 'we're all gonna go anyway let's take them with us' and despite everything, they're still a ducal family. Still immensely powerful and feared/respected. They aren't exactly in Chu Song's situation, they have plenty more space to fall.
 
Personally I'm glad to establish a precedent that Meizhen has to justify it to Ling Qi before she murders/maims somebody on Qi's behalf. It'll be interesting to see if she adjusts her approach in the future now that she realizes "he tried to hurt Zhengui" is a more effective argument than "you need to be feared."
I mean, if we had evidence he was going after people we care about, reactions would both be stronger and we would be far more justified. Doesn't matter if it's Zhengui, SuSu, or so on. It makes a lot of sense given Ling Qi's personality.
 
Both Meizhen and Ling Qi thought it would work. That's probably the closest thing we can get to an informed expert opinion, so I believe them.
Snrk, oh I'd love to see an omake of Meizhen trying to pull her "I just collapsed his residence on him without warning. He didn't make it out? So sad, but not my fault." story to an Elder's face.
 
On an unrelated tangent. As breakthrough rolls seem to always be done by throwing d100s, Cyan really needs more requirements for a breakthrough.

Can you imagine losing like 34 successes from peak green, while we throw a three digit amount of dice for a cultivation role? We could likely hit that with passive successes. The higher you get the less the success penalty matters.

Losing reagents like moon dew or the dragon fruit? That is going to suck. I wonder what vegetable we will need to gather.
 
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I mean, if we had evidence he was going after people we care about, reactions would both be stronger and we would be far more justified. Doesn't matter if it's Zhengui, SuSu, or so on. It makes a lot of sense given Ling Qi's personality.
Yes, my point goes to Meizhen and the heavy do-what-Meizhen-says partisans. When the conversation goes like it did:

LQ: What's up?
BM: I'm gonna go kill that guy that's been bothering you.
LQ: Please don't.

And Meizhen had some dialogue choices available:
--> Sometimes you have to kill a chicken to scare the monkeys.
--> He tried to hurt Zhengui.
--> There'll be some shiny loot involved.
--> I've already planned out like 9/10 of the murder, come on.

It's neither the voter's nor Ling Qi's fault that Meizhen didn't pick the option that would convince Ling Qi to approve the hit. There are a lot of things where we take direction from Bai Meizhen because she's an expert who doesn't have time to explain her reasoning to us. Killing a guy specifically because of the things he's done to Ling Qi is not one of those things and I don't think it should be one of those things.
 
She's a Bai. I think "poker face" may be her only face. :lol
And against someone in her 15 year old age group no one would gainsay her. But we're talking about Sect Elders. I wouldn't be surprised if Jiao has an interrogation Art that lets him peruse a person's very soul if he's willing, let alone detecting a lie from a 15 year old girl.

Meizhen was relying on her status as a high noble and Renshu's as an unliked commoner to get her through with a slap on the wrist. The thing is, unlike maiming under specific circumstances, this is one of the only things the Sect cannot afford to let happen. Because if the precedent of being able to get away with murdering other disciples if they're unconnected enough starts, then nearly all commoners and minor nobles would get whacked early on by high nobles who don't like them for whatever reason. And the Sect/Empire suddenly loses their only source of new blood/Talent.
 
An omake where she walks away clean because the Elders saw she did her due diligence on setting up alibis would be pretty nice.
Apart from what I just posted, what alibi are you talking about? She wasn't going to pretend she wasn't involved, she was straight going to own up to bringing down his base.

"I had intended to collapse the structure," Meizhen replied simply. She stood on a thin branch, which somehow flawlessly held her weight without bending. "Then trace the trail of his escape method, should he have one."

Ling Qi grimaced. "Wouldn't that have good odds of, well… killing him?" She pointed out.

"A terrible tragedy indeed," her friend replied without looking away from the lake. "I of course had intelligence indicating that he was elsewhere at the time, and that a cultivator of the earth element would be hardier."
 
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Apart from what I just posted, what alibi are you talking about? She wasn't going to pretend she wasn't involved, she was straight going to own up to bringing down his base.
Ah, I phrased things poorly. I think the Elders absolutely let that excuse go and say that Meizhen did her due diligence. I assumed that was the topic of such an omake, the Elders all doing a bit of wink wink nudge nudge and letting the prodigy go instead of throwing a fit over some dead commoner that didn't even make inner sect.
 
Ah, I phrased things poorly. I think the Elders absolutely let that excuse go and say that Meizhen did her due diligence. I assumed that was the topic of such an omake, the Elders all doing a bit of wink wink nudge nudge and letting the prodigy go instead of throwing a fit over some dead commoner that didn't even make inner sect.
You really think any of the Elder's we've seen would be amused by such a half-assed excuse to avoid punishment rather than irritated? More like "Half of this punishment is for doing exactly what we said not to. The extra half is for being a cheeky git about it."

This isn't the Naruto chunnin exams where you're expected to cheat and not get caught. There's serious repercussions that the Sect has to take into account.
And against someone in her 15 year old age group no one would gainsay her. But we're talking about Sect Elders. I wouldn't be surprised if Jiao has an interrogation Art that lets him peruse a person's very soul if he's willing, let alone detecting a lie from a 15 year old girl.

Meizhen was relying on her status as a high noble and Renshu's as an unliked commoner to get her through with a slap on the wrist. The thing is, unlike maiming under specific circumstances, this is one of the only things the Sect cannot afford to let happen. Because if the precedent of being able to get away with murdering other disciples if they're unconnected enough starts, then nearly all commoners and minor nobles would get whacked early on by high nobles who don't like them for whatever reason. And the Sect/Empire suddenly loses their only source of new blood/Talent.
On top of this, we've just learned more about how Meizhen doesn't even have that much political clout with her family.
 
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Folks are taking Meizhen line out of context, and assuming it's the totality of her plan rather than a somewhat flippant answer to a specific question. I'm on the phone right now, but when I'm home I'll do a post about this.
 
Because if the precedent of being able to get away with murdering other disciples if they're unconnected enough starts, then nearly all commoners and minor nobles would get whacked early on by high nobles who don't like them for whatever reason.
Not true. This case is an extreme: Scion of a ducal house vs a commoner with literally no backing at all, disliked by the sect as a whole.

Everyone is either his enemy or at the very least dislikes him. Who would come forward?

That was how she put it originally, "let me show you what happens when someone with no connections goes up against someone with all the connections."

That sounds perfectly plausible to me. :D
"I was told Earth Cultivators would be far more hardy."
"His spirit was a giant worm, how could he not escape that?"
This isn't the Naruto chunnin exams where you're expected to cheat and not get caught. There's serious repercussions that the Sect has to take into account.
Well, it seems we have two choices:
1) Trust Meizhen, trained from birth in politics IC, knows what she is doing.
2) Trust NaanContributor, provider of delicious flat bread, knows Meizhen is wrong.
 
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You really think any of the Elder's we've seen would be amused by such a half-assed excuse to avoid punishment rather than irritated? More like "Half of this punishment is for doing exactly what we said not to. The extra half is for being a cheeky git about it."
Yes. I absolutely think the Elders would have let her go with very little punishment, possibly with none at all. When you hide off the beaten path the consequences are less when people maim or kill you. This has been brought up multiple times during the quest. Meizhen did her due diligence in setting up excuses and had political backing that Yan Reshu completely lacked.
 
You really think any of the Elder's we've seen would be amused by such a half-assed excuse to avoid punishment rather than irritated? More like "Half of this punishment is for doing exactly what we said not to. The extra half is for being a cheeky git about it."

This isn't the Naruto chunnin exams where you're expected to cheat and not get caught. There's serious repercussions that the Sect has to take into account.
The reputation of the sect is the only reason the sect rules exist. Cai and Meizhen have both indicated that people without backing have no protection even despite the rules. Cai in particular outright told us that the game is one for nobles with influence to play, not for commoners with talent. The sect reputation is affected when someone like grandfather Gu or Sun Shao comes and asks why their daughter was imprisoned/crippled. The sect reputation is affected when two dozen low noble families band together and come ask why their children are getting injured at an unsustainable rate. The sect reputation is affected if the graduating class of cultivators lacks talent in general (refer to the very first post of the thread). The sect reputation is affected if their set of inner and core disciples don't compare favorable to other sects.

The sect reputation is not affected if Yan Renshu disappears but they still can point to Ling Qi and Ji Rong as talented commoners they've raised up from nothing at Imperial expense. The sect reputation is not affected if some uppity commoners / less than a dozen low nobles get an eye gouged out in the outer sect, totally healable, all her fault, ala Suyin. The sect reputation is not affected if some foolish outer disciples go missing on the outer sect mountain. The sect reputation is not affected if less talented commoner disciples like the Ma Sisters get robbed of 20 rss every month.

The rules are a veneer the sect uses to cover up that they only care about certain things that make them lose face either to Very Important Nobles or to The Empire Itself. The "rules" are a camouflage the sect throws over the real rules: don't do anything that negatively affects the sect's reputation to the big boys. The text of the rules means nothing, they're just the excuse the sect would use if something they did want to punish happens.


Yan Renshu, for all his resources and ability, is beneath the sect's real notice, as is Ling Qi. Poisoning Zhengui wouldn't have drawn any heat from the sect, nor would "accidentally" killing Yan Renshu by collapsing his base in with him in it. That's because the sect rules mean nothing unless the specific actions and their specific consequences negatively affect the sect's standing in the Empire.
 
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The reputation of the sect is the only reason the sect rules exist. Cai and Meizhen have both indicated that people without backing have no protection even despite the rules. Cai in particular outright told us that the game is one for nobles with influence to play, not for commoners with talent. The sect reputation is affected when someone like grandfather Gu or Sun Shao comes and asks why their daughter was imprisoned/crippled. The sect reputation is affected when two dozen low noble families band together and come ask why their children are getting injured at an unsustainable rate. The sect reputation is affected if the graduating class of cultivators lacks talent in general (refer to the very first post of the thread). The sect reputation is affected if their set of inner and core disciples don't compare favorable to other sects.

The sect reputation is not affected if Yan Renshu disappears but they still can point to Ling Qi and Ji Rong as talented commoners they've raised up from nothing at Imperial expense. The sect reputation is not affected if less than a dozen commoners / very low nobles get an eye gouged out in the outer sect, totally healable, all her fault, ala Suyin. The sect reputation is not affected if some foolish outer disciples go missing on the outer sect mountain. The sect reputation is not affected if less talented commoner disciples like the Ma Sisters get robbed of 20 rss every month.

The rules are a veneer the sect uses to cover up that they only care about certain things that make them lose face either to Very Important Nobles or to The Empire Itself. The "rules" are a sheet the sect throws over the real rules: don't do anything that negatively affects the sect's reputation to the big boys. The text of the rules means nothing, they're just the excuse the sect would use if something they did want to punish happens.


Yan Renshu, for all his resources and ability, is beneath the sect's real notice, as is Ling Qi. Poisoning Zhengui wouldn't have drawn any heat from the sect, nor would "accidentally" killing Yan Renshu by collapsing his base in with him in it. That's because the sect rules mean nothing unless the specific actions and their specific consequences negatively affect the sect's standing in the Empire.
These are all good points, and I accept the rebuttal more than the "wink wink nudge nudge" stuff. Or the straw manning...

My only issue I suppose is that we were in a similar position early in the Quest when Huang Da threatened our and SuSu's lives. And even he was going to leave it as mysterious deaths blamed on mountain beasts. He wasn't going to claim responsibility for it and go "Who cares?"

But if yrsillar is going to give more of an explanation then I'll shut up about it and wait. Another example of Meizhen's communication I guess, since I inferred a flippant attitude from a flippant answer.
 
And against someone in her 15 year old age group no one would gainsay her. But we're talking about Sect Elders. I wouldn't be surprised if Jiao has an interrogation Art that lets him peruse a person's very soul if he's willing, let alone detecting a lie from a 15 year old girl.
During Elder Jiao's training Xin appeared to basically read our mind, though we don't know how much she already knew.
 
Folks are taking Meizhen line out of context, and assuming it's the totality of her plan rather than a somewhat flippant answer to a specific question. I'm on the phone right now, but when I'm home I'll do a post about this.
They're also assuming Meizhen told us the truth about his trying to poison Mr. Cuddles, rather than a white lie that would stop her friend from being worried about morality and start being more careful of both her life and reputation.


Just saying...
 
They're also assuming Meizhen told us the truth about his trying to poison Mr. Cuddles, rather than a white lie that would stop her friend from being worried about morality and start being more careful of both her life and reputation.


Just saying...
If she was able and willing to manipulate us that well she would have said that beforehand.
 
I don't find the argument "bai is noble, trained from birth, knows all " to be a good one. If that was the case I wonder what cai and Han jians opinion on the whole "let's totes murder the guy and cover it up as an accident and get away with it cus of our status" plan would go....

Again there is a reason the bai clan isn't the go to model of a clan you want to emulate and they have very very few friends if any.

The only thing keeping them afloat at this point is recourses built up from past generations, their reputation and grandma snake.

I'm sure the infighting doesn't help
 
I don't find the argument "bai is noble, trained from birth, knows all " to be a good one. If that was the case I wonder what cai and Han jians opinion on the whole "let's totes murder the guy and cover it up as an accident and get away with it cus of our status" plan would go....
They'd probably say she'd get away with it. Cai was quite open about how the ascension of talented commoners isn't really the point of the sect.
 
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