- Location
- United States of America
... Musical barriers.
An opponent hits the barrier and a prerecorded song plays out which is also a technique. They get debuffed from hitting our barriers!
Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
An opponent hits the barrier and a prerecorded song plays out which is also a technique. They get debuffed from hitting our barriers!
The problem with formations is that as a high talent cultivator, we have a significant comparative advantage in training arts as compared to training skills or supplementary skills.
A) High Talent means we can safely open more meridians, and therefore equip more arts simultaneously.
The value of training arts falls off massively once you don't have room to equip them. Sure, you can train several arts that use the same meridians and then swap between them - but that is still considerably less effective than having both arts equipped, only being able to benefit from one passive at a time, and suffering from the inability to adjust within an event when your loadout is fixed.
As a result, a lower-Talent cultivator is liable to find their art portfolio "capped" by their ability to open meridians. At that point, it makes sense to transition to learning a side occupation or earning money for a high-level talisman or generally finding a non-art method of improving their strength. As a higher-Talent cultivator, we don't suffer these difficulties - and thus our time is spent on art cultivation and not e.g. formations.
B) High talent advances quickly at cultivation, but normally at other tasks.
Two cultivators with the same strength can collect sect points or stones at the same rate, improve their skills at the same rate, and do research and the like at the same rate. This is regardless of the relative talent of the cultivators.
Thus, since a higher-Talent cultivator can gain more strength per action by cultivating, methods that yield strength based on time/action commitment instead of cultivation are generally less attractive to such cultivators than they would be to their lower-Talent peers.
For example, consider spending an action three weeks in a row earning money for a high level talisman. For Ling Qi, this is probably a bad idea; she could have used the same time to e.g. get SCS4->5, and that is better than the benefit a 300RSS talisman would bring us. In contrast, someone lower-talent might only be able to make half as much art progress, so for them the talisman might be more tempting.
The same applies to Formations. Formations are time/action intensive - they require time for skill improvements, more time to learn individual arrays, and MORE time to develop your own techniques. Sure, it is a path that can make you strong - but thanks to our Talent, it just isn't competitive with our alternatives.
A) High Talent means we can safely open more meridians, and therefore equip more arts simultaneously.
The value of training arts falls off massively once you don't have room to equip them. Sure, you can train several arts that use the same meridians and then swap between them - but that is still considerably less effective than having both arts equipped, only being able to benefit from one passive at a time, and suffering from the inability to adjust within an event when your loadout is fixed.
As a result, a lower-Talent cultivator is liable to find their art portfolio "capped" by their ability to open meridians. At that point, it makes sense to transition to learning a side occupation or earning money for a high-level talisman or generally finding a non-art method of improving their strength. As a higher-Talent cultivator, we don't suffer these difficulties - and thus our time is spent on art cultivation and not e.g. formations.
B) High talent advances quickly at cultivation, but normally at other tasks.
Two cultivators with the same strength can collect sect points or stones at the same rate, improve their skills at the same rate, and do research and the like at the same rate. This is regardless of the relative talent of the cultivators.
Thus, since a higher-Talent cultivator can gain more strength per action by cultivating, methods that yield strength based on time/action commitment instead of cultivation are generally less attractive to such cultivators than they would be to their lower-Talent peers.
For example, consider spending an action three weeks in a row earning money for a high level talisman. For Ling Qi, this is probably a bad idea; she could have used the same time to e.g. get SCS4->5, and that is better than the benefit a 300RSS talisman would bring us. In contrast, someone lower-talent might only be able to make half as much art progress, so for them the talisman might be more tempting.
The same applies to Formations. Formations are time/action intensive - they require time for skill improvements, more time to learn individual arrays, and MORE time to develop your own techniques. Sure, it is a path that can make you strong - but thanks to our Talent, it just isn't competitive with our alternatives.
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Qi cards exist. Setting a trap with formations to set off a recorded technique doesn't seem too complicated, but it is likely quite situational.
- Location
- scrabbling
Ugh. I would vote for one of the leading plans but they have ZB+ and War training, which is still a total waste and a deal-breaker for me. Other than that one section of Elder training the leading plans line up...approximately with my priorities, since they do stealth alone, look at the book, and share AC primarily with Su Ling.
When I asked about 'why War/ZB+', the explanation was that War is hard to train and might be useful someday, which makes no sense and justifies Bureaucracy and a Bureaucracy-related art from the archive exactly as well, and I don't see people wanting that.
Moreover I'm, let's say, unconvinced about the usefulness of any version of ZB+ compared to the myriad of other, more impressive arts that Ling Qi needs to train. The fact is that some things will need to fall to the wayside before breakthrough. Ling Qi and the thread need to accept that some things won't be trained all the way because she doesn't have enough time. The arts that don't enforce Ling Qi's skillset in a way unique and strong enough to justify will simply need to fall away from her focus. For me, ZB+ is in that category.
I certainly don't want Elder Jiao's impression of Ling Qi to be colored by her novice mistakes in tactics more than they already are, and he's already unimpressed by her rather hohum Formations abilities. I want Ling Qi to put her best foot forward to her sect's Elders. When you come to a music lesson you better have practiced and shown effort, and I don't see how one-dot WAR does that. TRF was 'this is an area I'm lacking in, please provide guidance', which is fine. ZB+ would be 'I wanna do this thing but have no concrete plans related to it', which is not. Ling Qi is 'half a spymaster' in the opinion of Sima Jiao. If she goes and hares off into a distinctly separate discipline like War then it shows a lack of focus.
Honestly, I'd even prefer if that half of the Elder lessons were Formations of all things, over War. Even though he's already disparaged her abilities and lack of inspiration and passion there, and stated he has no intention to teach her fully, I'd prefer showing that dedication and hard work that made Ling Qi into the little tireless training munchkin that she is.
You can't simply run away from practice because you show no talent in that skill. Xianxia has two major themes in its reverance for improvement, and while talent is one, hard work and stubbornness and strong will is the other. If you want something then you can get it.
And Ling Qi has that desire to be stronger and better, and Formations is a skill sure to give her great returns. Even more so than War, for which she has no concrete plans or uses, unlike Formations.
She has ambition and hunger and want. She has no intention to be a 'merely average' cultivator with no focus, and she won't let merely disparaging words dissuade her from gaining capability in the arena of Formations.
That's what I want Ling Qi to showcase to Elder Jiao.
When I asked about 'why War/ZB+', the explanation was that War is hard to train and might be useful someday, which makes no sense and justifies Bureaucracy and a Bureaucracy-related art from the archive exactly as well, and I don't see people wanting that.
Moreover I'm, let's say, unconvinced about the usefulness of any version of ZB+ compared to the myriad of other, more impressive arts that Ling Qi needs to train. The fact is that some things will need to fall to the wayside before breakthrough. Ling Qi and the thread need to accept that some things won't be trained all the way because she doesn't have enough time. The arts that don't enforce Ling Qi's skillset in a way unique and strong enough to justify will simply need to fall away from her focus. For me, ZB+ is in that category.
I certainly don't want Elder Jiao's impression of Ling Qi to be colored by her novice mistakes in tactics more than they already are, and he's already unimpressed by her rather hohum Formations abilities. I want Ling Qi to put her best foot forward to her sect's Elders. When you come to a music lesson you better have practiced and shown effort, and I don't see how one-dot WAR does that. TRF was 'this is an area I'm lacking in, please provide guidance', which is fine. ZB+ would be 'I wanna do this thing but have no concrete plans related to it', which is not. Ling Qi is 'half a spymaster' in the opinion of Sima Jiao. If she goes and hares off into a distinctly separate discipline like War then it shows a lack of focus.
Honestly, I'd even prefer if that half of the Elder lessons were Formations of all things, over War. Even though he's already disparaged her abilities and lack of inspiration and passion there, and stated he has no intention to teach her fully, I'd prefer showing that dedication and hard work that made Ling Qi into the little tireless training munchkin that she is.
You can't simply run away from practice because you show no talent in that skill. Xianxia has two major themes in its reverance for improvement, and while talent is one, hard work and stubbornness and strong will is the other. If you want something then you can get it.
And Ling Qi has that desire to be stronger and better, and Formations is a skill sure to give her great returns. Even more so than War, for which she has no concrete plans or uses, unlike Formations.
She has ambition and hunger and want. She has no intention to be a 'merely average' cultivator with no focus, and she won't let merely disparaging words dissuade her from gaining capability in the arena of Formations.
That's what I want Ling Qi to showcase to Elder Jiao.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
I'm not actually sure about that part.
Su Ling and others are often talking about how Ling Qi isn't just improving her arts quickly, but her skills too. That might be due to all he dangerous activities we are doing, but there seems to be some kind of benefit to skill training from Talent.
We need a solid foundation in formations before we can develop them.
Jiao basically told us this: we need to learn the formations in the archive, then improve upon them. We can't develop them without first learning basic versions.
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- Location
- United States of America
I mean, that is the point. Something that we could do with the knowledge of formations that we could easily acquire.
Another thought is the fractal barrier. I mean we know qi cards exist, we can store techniques in qi cards, and we can presumably find a way to trigger the qi cards through a separate input. That means we could activate a qi card that has a formation barrier technique in it. Then the trigger for activating the next part of the qi card is breaking the first barrier. If we do this we can create a loop with two qi cards. As long as the first activation barrier has multiple uses (which we know that qi cards can be made to have), then it's possible to have two activation sequences: manual activation and activation by breaking the second barrier. It would mean that you have to break each barrier as many times as we placed the barrier in the qi cards, twice. And we would only have to activate it once.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
How about Knife training then? Knives tend to have a lot of synergy with Swords, it's currently the only weapon we have that's effective at all ranges, and it's comaptible with ZB+ for those who want to develop it?
War is hard to raise, but we're also shitty enough with it that using an Elder's training is like using a cannonball to swat a fly. We could simply ask an Inner Sect Disciple for tutoring on the topic if we must.
We'd also be able to use it to train ZB+ too, and it's a lot more constructive to train our daggers that way then it is to use rare and precious Elder Training on something that we could just talk to an Inner Sect Disciple for training in.
War is hard to raise, but we're also shitty enough with it that using an Elder's training is like using a cannonball to swat a fly. We could simply ask an Inner Sect Disciple for tutoring on the topic if we must.
We'd also be able to use it to train ZB+ too, and it's a lot more constructive to train our daggers that way then it is to use rare and precious Elder Training on something that we could just talk to an Inner Sect Disciple for training in.
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You. I like you.
Codex
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Except nobody wants to commit to Formations.
Formations is a skill that you either have a basic understanding of, or one that you at least specialize in. Ling Qi does not specialize in any area in formations, and unless we decide to actively pursue an area, we are going to continue being uninspired and lack passion and drive. We don't spend any actions on archive formations (other than that one time), we don't train formations with Xuan or Suyin, we don't take Formations lessons, we don't spend any actions on it.
Our entire time we've spent a ton of omake points on formations, but we've never put in the effort to actually go through with it. Jiao rebuked us because of that lack of drive. Unless we actually start training formations OUTSIDE of his lessons, then he's going to continue seeing us as uninspired. You can't expect a tutor to be satisfied with a student who stubbornly pursues something they're not willing to put the effort in training, and simply asks the tutors for answers and shortcuts.
If you want to train formations, go hard or go home. Choose a specialty, spend actions in the archive, cooperate with Xuan and Suyin, take Formation lessons and spend time working on it.
But people won't choose to take that option, because it requires too much time and investment for Ling Qi to do when she's already busy with so many things. My opinion is that it's worse to half-ass formations than it is to simply ignore it.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
On a further note in regards to "Try getting close combat training with our knives". Jiao is supposed to be a prodigy of swords, which are a related enough weapon (A small sword is just a big knife after all!) And it'd be a great way to push for a Close Quarters Combat specialty with our knives.
Which gives us a valid close combat option, since we won't be able to avoid it forever--especially not when we start adding Argent Current, and it'd give us the options to abuse our silly level of Speed to weave in and out of range. Or discourage people from closing because then we're hammering them with Current.
Which gives us a valid close combat option, since we won't be able to avoid it forever--especially not when we start adding Argent Current, and it'd give us the options to abuse our silly level of Speed to weave in and out of range. Or discourage people from closing because then we're hammering them with Current.
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- Location
- scrabbling
My point isn't actually to push Formations. You'll notice I'm of two minds on Formations—it's not something Ling Qi really excels in the way that she's such a great sneak or such a great archer, but at least it demonstrates something worthwhile about her to the Elder. (Though just about anything can be taken wrongly, so grain of salt and all that.) What's really appalling is WAR.
Seriously.
What does War do for Ling Qi? 'Well, she'll be in the military eventually...' Such a timid and unsupported reasoning won't get Ling Qi anywhere. Does every soldier know every strategem or tactic they would participate in? No. They're good fighters, or good formations engineers, or good scouts, or good saboteurs, not good commanders. That's for the commanders—the people who lead, like Han Jian and Cai Renxiang. Ling Qi has no family and while she'll probably have an imperial writ sometime soon, that doesn't make her influential or give her command.
Even Formations is better than War, is my point.
ZB+ is an extension of War, really. We have no concrete information that it will be more worthwhile than Ling Qi pursuing what she already has better access to. Yes, it's of some benefit to ranged attackers; yes the first level was perfectly serviceable in Red fights and even okay in a Yellow fight. But I'd rather train Argent Current, an art of the same quality as the excellent Argent Mirror, or train a Cloud Tribe-related art if there is one available, or train Argent Whatever if Ling Qi trades Argent Mirror to Han Jian for it. Like, even if those don't match up perfectly to Ling Qi's specialty, they're stronger than ZB+ and they push and support Ling Qi's skillset in more directions than 'you are better at range'.
Like. Even the horrifically vague 'Cloud Tribe-related art' that isn't even confirmed is more appealing to me than ZB+ now. That's how much I don't think ZB+ is worth the time.
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Codex
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In case anybody's wondering about what Alectai is saying in regards to Jiao and swords, here is an excerpt:
Jiao's formation in Zhou's test has also been emphasized by Yrsillar on Discord to be the "Blade Memory Formation".
So he's supposed to be skilled at the use of blades.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
If you would change it to Knives, I would consider that perfect. It's a weapon that we're good with, that fits in with our style, and it's extremely versatile and can be trained with ZB+.
It counts as a 'Ranged' Weapon too, for the purpose of our training acceleration.
And once we learn Argent Current, we'll have an incentive to weave in and out of close combat as necessary--and more importantly, we can shift to our knives at any point without interrupting our music, unlike our bow, which requires both hands.
And finally, Jiao is a blade prodigy, it's one of his things along with his Formation Work. And unlike the latter, it's something we've put a lot of work into.
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Not for melee we can't. It only works for throwing knives, since we can get rid of the knives immediately after taking them from our space ring (by throwing them).
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
We were explicitly told that Ling Qi can conceal her knives in her sleeves when we got our new outfit, and more importantly, we can technically hold a song for two full turns before we need it again. Deploying our daggers for one or two blows, then grabbing our flute again is within our means.
- Location
- United States of America
Ahh... we're talking about weapons now aren't we? Which weapons to train and all of that for ZB and AC?
I'm ah, going to go and sit over there and sit this one out.
I'm ah, going to go and sit over there and sit this one out.
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You realize that when we stop playing the flute, we can't pick up the melody again?
Like, if you play all of FVM's techs and then stop for 2 turns, then pick it up again, you have to spend 4 qi all over again because you have to start from scratch. You can't "pick up" a melody.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
To be fair.
+2 turns on what already takes 4 turns to fade is going to be enough to win most battles.
- Location
- scrabbling
I thought that was the point of the 'holding' parts of the flute and FVM? That they could be unplayed for a round and then resumed without repaying activation.
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