Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Wonder how Joe would do in Warhammer 30 or 40K, assuming that Joe has ways to resist or be immune to the Warp. Where and when would be the best place to put Joe in?
Well, if we're talking about Full Forge Joe, anywhere would be fine. He'd probably retake the galaxy in a few days at most. That being said, I'd honestly want to put him on some Feral World a couple of hundred years before the fall of Cadia, have him advance it to unimaginable heights, and ride to Cadia's rescue with an entire fleet of ships that dwarf the largest and mightiest Battleships in the Imperium.

Those are his fightercraft. Each one of them can delete a star system. On the low end.
 
LOL, Actually I'll believe it when I see it.
The author has already explained what happened with the last the chapters. He had scheduling troubles due to IRL stuff. Also, the interludes ended up longer then they should have been. There's no need to be snarky about this. The next chapter is confirmed to be focusing on Joe and plot progression. I can understand being disinterested and disappointed in the interlude length, but please keep the toxicity to minimum.
 
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Alright, seeing as everyone seems to be at each other's throat right now, I think it's time to give my two cents as well. So, constructive criticism time!

1. Considering the sheer amount of negativity on this thread currently, it's probably best if I start with the positive side of things. I really, truly enjoyed the Interludes, not only from a purely entertainment perspective, but from a narrative one as well. I genuinely do not understand those who say that they added nothing of import, they were actually choke full with absolutely vital information. Let's start from the top:

a. Victoria's character development is put front and center. Honestly, she has changed so much that, were I lacking the inner monologues given in her Interludes, I probably would've been shocked and raised a massive stink due to the sheer shift she has undergone. Since it should be obvious by now that she is going to be a major character from now on, or at the very least in the near future, establishing her new personality is very much vital to prevent future confusion.​
b. Outside perspectives are given on Joe. Thanks to this we now have a far better grasp on his public image, as well as all of the theories people are putting out to try and understand him. This gives us a better idea of how the various movers and shakers, as well as the general public are going to react to the events of Chapter 41. It also shows that Victoria is surprisingly adept at gauging the differing opinions on Joe, proving that she is quite perceptive.​
c. The Interludes serve as "fix-it" for Chapter 41, as they seem almost tailor-made to clear up uncertainties and give a greater context to the events occurring. Off of the top of my head there are:​
I. The readers are reminded that while neither they nor Joe care for Lung, everybody else very much does. Just about everyone else is absolutely terrified of the man, with the whole ABB essentially existing only due to his sheer strength.​
II. It's shown that Joe does in fact only backhand March, rather than hitting her full force, making her survival more tolerable and believable.​
III. We are shown exactly how Joe's overwatch got taken out.​
d. Lastly, the most important part of it all, Victoria meets the Fragile One.​
Overall, I'd rate the Interludes rather highly. They add further worldbuilding, character development, put past events into perspective, offer explanations for contentious occurrences, and set up a positively ludicrous amount of future content I am quite genuinely rather hyped for. How are the local PRT going to be punished for failing to prevent further kidnappings of civilians? How will everyone react to Joe's so aptly demonstrated strength? Is Cauldron going to get involved? What will happen at Somer's Rock?
I have absolutely no idea but by God am I looking forwards to finding out.

2. However, there remain flaws within the recent chapters, and it is my hope, that by pointing them out, as well as offering ways how they could have been avoided, that Lord will be able to avoid another such contentious chapter. Please remember that this is in fact writing practice for him, not pointing out the negatives isn't going to help anyone. So, without further ado, in no particular order:

a. Showing Joe's altered state of mind through changes in writing. Lord himself has already addressed this point, stating that it would've taken to much time to implement and would've required further delays, which he didn't want to happen, wishing to keep as close to schedule as realistically feasible.​
Now, while this is very much commendable, it really didn't help the controversy. Because the fact that Joe is essentially too angry to think clearly is told to us, but not shown, it doesn't really register and thus makes his following decisions seem stupid. I recommend that next time such an event happens within the story, Lord simply delays and spares himself the stress.​
b. Secondly, Lung wasn't build up enough to serve as a satisfying final boss of this arc. I'm not going to complain that it should've been March, that wasn't what happened and we have to deal with it. We simply lacked an emotional attachment to him to truly rejoice at his defeat and the downfall of the ABB that it spelled, because he was so utterly dismissed.​
Personally, I would've added some monologue or dialogue on Joe's part, showing us just how formidable of a threat Lung normally is, as well as showing us the consequences of his mere existence. Maybe have Joe stumble onto footage from Lung's operations regarding human trafficking, showing us just how much of a blight he truly is, eliciting disgust at him and at least giving us some measure of catharsis at his defeat.​
c. Alright, this is going to be the most controversial part of it all. Let's talk plot-holes, namely March not dying and Joe focusing so much on Lung. And I think this ties in neatly with point a.​
If we were truly shown just how out of it Joe actually is, than him not managing to punch in the most effective way or not being able to hit March full force would be quite believable. Show a barely conscious Joe just blindly lashing out, and March's survival becomes much less of a sticking point.​
Similarly, his absolute focus on Lung rather than March after seeing Garment hurt and deciding to hurt the one responsible stops being such a "Wait, what?"-moment if he is shown to be so utterly furious, that he simply goes after whoever is closest, rather than responsible. Again, if Joe is just lashing out rather than acting rationally, a lot of things make much more sense. And I think that that was Lord's goal, but it just doesn't come off well at all in this case.​
Nonetheless, I still greatly enjoyed the last installment, and having been one of the people brandishing my pitchfork after chapter 41, I can assure Lord that his efforts at fixing what some of his readers didn't like has been noticed and is greatly appreciated.

Have a nice day everyone.
 
statistically, it's a logical point. Even just assuming that we are only considering the AI and the clones, she shouldn't be alive, especially considering that they could have taken a few seconds to check while Joe was keeping Lung busy.

Statistically, thats not a logical point at all, because the percentages are not independent. For each of them, the probability of focusing on Lung given that Joe focuses on Lung is either near or equal to 100%. Acting like they are in any way independent given the status of Joe as 'near death and actively fighting a giant monster' completely undermines the argument, especially since Joe acts as the vector for most of them. (Why is Tetra, the blind mildly-sentient alien attached to Joe, treated as an independent entity? Or his shard? What the hell?)
 
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If this isn't a quest, and the author isn't using percentile dice to determine events, you are pulling percentages from thin air and thus are not arguing from any basis in fact. Thanks for the middle school math, but it's not exactly relevant to any argument here.

You're ruining your other more legitimate points by doubling down on it.
You're welcome.

But here's the thing:
Plug. In. Your. Own. Numbers.

You think what I estimated is unrealistic? GREAT!
I literally just wrote a 1,000 word document on how to DO THE TEST YOURSELF.

So PROVE ME WRONG.
Make up your own numbers, whatever you think is realistic for each character, run the test I gave you, and post the results.

My point is that (even by die-hard apologist people's standards) there are 3 fully functional individuals that could and should have killed March.
Give. Me. YOUR. Odds.
 
So PROVE ME WRONG.
Make up your own numbers, whatever you think is realistic for each character, run the test I gave you, and post the results.

My point is that (even by die-hard apologist people's standards) there are 3 fully functional individuals that could and should have killed March.
Give. Me. YOUR. Odds.

My point is trying to calculate any Watsonian odds when fundamentally it's a Doylist issue is pointless, my man. You're charging at windmills here with all the math.
 
@yellingbrian2 numbers are not applicable to this story. If you want to analyze plot holes, think more about character motives, the circumstances of the story, and the characters' capabilities, rather than probabilities.
 
Hey when the Butcher eventually comes to BB and Joe probably wins via ripping out their soul do you think it'll be 14 individual souls or some kind of weird amalgam?
 
My point is trying to calculate any Watsonian odds when fundamentally it's a Doylist issue is pointless, my man. You're charging at windmills here with all the math.
numbers are not applicable to this story. If you want to analyze plot holes, think more about character motives, the circumstances of the story, and the characters' capabilities, rather than probabilities.
And you're all dodging the question.

My point was never "These are the correct numbers" but rather "All the characters get Idiot balled at the same time? That's a plot hole"

Everything everyone has argued claiming "March CLEARLY should have survived" is almost exclusively "proven" by just listing out a few reasons why each character could have been distracted.
These are not dumb characters, and given the information they had at the time they should have prioritized March. Both from a Logical and Emotional perspective.
She HURT their Dad, and she's the one who could hurt him again. "Big Dragon" was distracting doesn't make sense, for any character that isn't (or attached on) Joe.

For me to be correct I just need to prove that a FEW characters had at least a decent chance to finish her, and that their in character response SHOULD have been to do so.
For someone to prove that "it's NOT a plot hole", they have to prove that's there's a sound reason that EVERY character didn't just push a button to launch a missal at March.
And there just ISN'T a sound reason for everyone.

EDIT: I'm going to drop this. I kind of had fun making my arguments at the start of yesterday, but just feels like talking to a brick wall at this point with everyone repeating "all character's were distracted and couldn't be bothered" over and over again. I'm sure talking to me just feels the same way. I still would like to see an apologist's numbers, at some point. But I'll stop resounding.
 
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@yellingbrian2 numbers are not applicable to this story. If you want to analyze plot holes, think more about character motives, the circumstances of the story, and the characters' capabilities, rather than probabilities.

Actually, he may be onto something! Literary criticism thru math! I remember from school that mathematical proportions are useful in creating and, presumably, critiquing art, since some proportions are more aesthetically pleasing than others. This could be a whole new career path! Maybe he could create a proof of concept, like critiquing a Mark Twain novel, his choice of Shakespeare play, or his favorite book of poetry, using Math! And Math charts and graphs, and Percentages!!

And, he could take all the time he needs. As much as he wants! Pity that would keep him busy from other activities for awhile, but sacrifices must be made...For Math! and Literature!
 
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Give. Me. YOUR. Odds.
Odds that the duplicates are close enough? 0%
Oddd that Joe would want to in his blind "attack biggest visible threat" rage? 0%
Odds that the AI have anything to actually get to March with, let alone the time to do so? 0%

There are only two plausible actors who could of taken March out; Aisha and Victoria, both of whom are children, so sub-10% odds of them doing it either.

Now kindly stop ranting on like imaginary numbers pulled from nowhere count as proof.
 
On a lighter note, since the motoroid is finally gone, maybe we get a tiny gundam as the new transformer of choice. or a full size gundam. or he connects to a new node and all of a sudden we have the unicorn, or gurren lagann, or something else.

Basically, what do you think is gonna be the new Motoroid replacemet? another motoroid? a titan? an adamantium sky/volcano forged kamui symphogear motoroid?
 
My point was never "These are the correct numbers"



I agreed with you that it's a fucking long shot that shit lines up that March manages to not die. There's a quote from OOTS - 10% is unlikely, but a million to one odds are practically a certainty. Stories like this fucking thrive on the fantastical and the unlikely. Lung gets past the shield, somehow. Joe gets picked out of the blue with the Celestial Forge instead of a Shard power. Luke hits the Death Star.

But fine. Let's ignore all that. Let's get down to characters. Forgive me if others have made the same points before.

At least you've finally agreed that not all eight of the characters you've listed were in the position to do something about March. Really, in my humble opinion, there are indeed three characters who possibly could've done something. Joe, his clone, and the AI. Others have brought up how Garment and Tetra are not in the shape to even consider March, and Aisha is explicitly following instructions at this point. And the passenger, well, he can only give off vibes. And that is dependent on Joe on being able to interpret those vibes correctly. Never mind how the passenger has explicitly reigned in his manipulation of Joe in the wake of the Bank, and that Joe is wary of the passenger now.

Anyway.

Joe, despite the style of writing not changing to reflect it, is hopped up on clashing instincts, new powers, an immediate threat in his face, lots of pain, blood loss, etc. Arguably the most understandable in forgetting about March when, by the time he was out of the blood rage, he was facing down a city-killer Lung. And by the time he beat Lung, he passed out from blood loss. He's not gonna get to March anytime soon.

The AI. Survey and Fleet, as others have said before, have their priorities in helping Apeiron. Not ending threats to the world. Their only methods of interacting with the world without further compromising the Warehouse are 1) The clone's motoroid 2) The giant mecha and 3) Lethe. The clone's motoroid was focused on making sure that Lung would go down and that Joe didn't die from blood loss. The mecha, similarly, is engaging Lung. And Lethe as mentioned, is a teenager with zero combat experience no matter how kickass the suit. No one, not the AI, not Joe's clone, no one is going to have her do anything other than S&R. She barely got the suit functions down enough to make it out there even with Fleet's help.

And like I said before, Joe did not develop the AI to kill lightly.

Finally, Joe's clone. He got there after Lung became a city-killer. He was piloting the mecha against Lung, the city-killer.

Why, you might ask, did they not notice March was still a threat, and judge Lung to be the more immediate one?

It's almost like March is a timing thinker who can intuit how long to play dead to get people's attention off of her when she knows that Lung is on the ascent into a city-killer. Timing isn't just about moving, it's also about knowing when to not move. And not moving to play dead is easy enough for anyone, let alone a timing thinker.

So there. Low fucking odds, but March fudges the die cause she wasn't dead yet. And even then, she lobotomized herself.
 
Christ these arguments are ridiculous. God people can we just move on and talk about the potential outcomes of this new chapter and just let this topic die? For the love of god.
I agree, I think I'm not going to get involved any further in the arguments.

Joe is currently in a coma, but given his healing tech, he'll be fine in a few hours. With that in mind, he has now fully, properly debuted onto the cape scene, so I imagine that PR is going to be a bigger concern for Joe next chapter. I suspect that he's going to have a meeting with his "inner circle" about what to do next.
 
Sooooo anyone want to talk about Joe being inserted into other verses? I asked about Warhammer, but only one person answered :(
Fate/Grand Order would also be a fun insert, or just Fate in general, mainly because of his Master Craftsman perk that's made him and blessed by Gaia, or rather, he shapes Gaia's will into his own when making Divine Constructs. Are there any expansive and fair verses Joe can be put into?
 
Basically, what do you think is gonna be the new Motoroid replacemet? another motoroid? a titan? an adamantium sky/volcano forged kamui symphogear motoroid?

I don't believe he will have to start with a mundane motorcycle and then rebuild it...definitely he has enough resources to do it from scratch. I'm hoping he has learned his lesson about making a few extremely powerful objects and instead makes a bunch of very powerful ones, but that hasn't been Joe so far, so he will probably try to make something that uses every single perk he can..something that is vehicle, clothing, weapon, and armor all at once. And, of course, there'll be five of them, so at least there's that.


Sooooo anyone want to talk about Joe being inserted into other verses? I asked about Warhammer, but only one person answered :(
Fate/Grand Order would also be a fun insert, or just Fate in general, mainly because of his Master Craftsman perk that's made him and blessed by Gaia, or rather, he shapes Gaia's will into his own when making Divine Constructs. Are there any expansive and fair verses Joe can be put into?


Game of Thones/ASOIAF. Uplift the whole shithole place and rule it his own self. Or maybe the Wheel of Time series...another rather loooong piece of literature, Jozef should fit right in.
 
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I've been wondering about how the clones treat pre-existing conditions. How are the clones going to be that are formed from an unconscious and Life Fiber infused Joe? Cause we saw that even when not causing blood loss, Life Fibers can cause changes to the body that even the nanobots couldn't deal with leading to Joe being practically starving. And then we also saw how if Joe is hungry when his clones are formed, his clones will be hungry as well. So I think it would be fair to assume that the clones from an unconscious, starving, and ravenous Joe would not be in the best place to help him, and that's assuming that they aren't unconscious when formed as well.
 
Game of Thones/ASOIAF. Uplift the whole shithole place and rule it his own self. Or maybe the Wheel of Time series...another rather loooong piece of literature, Jozef should fit right in.
Where do you want to drop Joe, and at what point in the timeline? How do you think he'll get along with the factions/characters? Which chapter Joe do you want this to be? Current Joe or another chapter Joe so it isn't too hard of a curbstomp? And the most important question... best waifus for Joe?
 
With ASOIAF..current Joe would be fine, he wakes up from his coma in Essos, right about the time Dany walks out of the fire with the baby dragons. Maybe he could fix some of her issues, so that she could be bit more in touch with reality rather than acting kind of like Cauldron. As far as Wheel of Time...drop him on that treasure pile the Aiel have been hoarding since time immemorial, supposedly for the Aes Sedai. Let's see what he can make of that magitech.

Edit: How about this. To make the ASOIAF scenario a bit more interesting. He has all his current powers and abilities, but none of his tech, no access to the warehouse, no further access to the Forge, so no new powers. In reality, he is actually a clone that formed here somehow due to Jozef being so injured, but he has a permanent body. Hell, lets make it Khal Drago's body since it's nice and handy. Jozef in Drago's body arises from the flames with Dany and the dragons. How fast can he advance Planetos when starting with their tech level, but his knowledge, power, and skill?
 
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