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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Vysirez said:
Loved the Accord perspective. It makes sense that he would be one of the first people to get past all the confusion/misunderstanding about Apeiron. I do wonder a bit about Othello's initial appraisal. Joe and crew are already walking on eggshells in order to not freak everyone out. Why is the the initial thought that this is yet another power play. Does he need it? Why would that be the default interpretation. I mean it's not hugely out of scope, just seems odd that he defaults to yet another power move as opposed to testing new technology or abilities. I mean Joe is a tinker. The concept of testing is pretty much built in. I know I had out of context knowledge as a reader, but the idea that they might be testing something by removing a pointless annoying meme makes a lot more sense then yet another power play. Now that doesn't really make the ability less scary, but it changes the perception of CF's actions.

I want to argue that they should have left the meme gone. Bringing it back adds nothing positive. PRT and everyone is still going to figure it out, and bringing it back seems to add nothing to humanities collective intelligence.
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I think it's the perception of society at the time coloring how it's received. Any normal cape with such power, in their mind, obviously would do something like that. As a warning and tool to crow to the world "Look what I can do, now imagine what I can actually do." It's a product of their times.

Also, Focused (TM) Accord is scary smart. Even for a Thinker.
 
Accord instantly became my favorite non joe perspective which is pretty crazy considering the competition he has in this fic because everyone is written well, it's purely because he's one of the few that see's through the bs while also having a much bigger perspective then almost anyone else
 
LordRoustabout said:
And then you had the potential for the same trick I had been pulling with Dionysus, only instead of using libations to boost my skill at alcohol production to make better libations to further boost my skill at alcohol production, now Demeter could be included in that enhancement chain. The further I boosted her blessing of cultivation, the better the quality of the plants I could grow, and the better the quality or the wine, beer, or liquor that could be produced.

I don't think anyone really would have considered Dionysus and Demeter to be drinking buddies, but there was some serious overlap between their abilities. Aisha was right, Demeter seemed a lot more like a gin aunt, great aunt in my case, compared to Dionysus's frat bot reputation.
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You called dionysus a frat BOT, instead of a Frat Boy
 
Vysirez said:
Does he need it? Why would that be the default interpretation
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I mean what else would it be in their eyes? if the only thing you knew was that leethe is the most powerful stranger around and her leader...another stranger uses his vast stranger power to add a forced title in every person on earths thoughts who thinks about him? If the enigmtic tinker thing had not happened I would agree with you easier
 
LordRoustabout said:
Othello's explanation carried sound reasoning based on the most accurate models and assessments of Apeiron's behavior. It made perfect sense as the actions of a powerful ascending cape acting in opposition to established power blocs.

So of course, it was completely wrong.
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LordRoustabout said:
"Established analysis had consistently failed to predict Apeiron's motives, actions, or objectives." Accord smiled to himself.
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LordRoustabout said:
Models founded on precognition consistently failed when applied to Apeiron, or to any member of the Celestial Forge. What's more, they failed in a consistent manner. Unlike most sources of obstruction, Apeiron's organization did not represent a blank space in predictions, it presented consistently false data. Data sufficient to assure even the Boogeyman of Cauldron of their security against any action by the Celestial Forge.
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Finally, someone is using his brain. Congrat Accord, you're the first one to understand Apeiron is not just a powerful cape, he is an Outside Context Problem.

Okay, the anti-precog part need Accord resource to be pierced, but the other organisations should have realized by now that the current models about Apeiron are consistently wrong (which means they are not using the right hypothesis to begin with).

LordRoustabout said:
It was more surprising that Cauldron had so definitively failed to recognize what they were facing. Honestly, Accord was somewhat disappointed. What he had assumed to be competence was obviously buoyed by the prodigious abilities of the Boogeyman. The inability to even consider the possibility of subversion of that asset spoke poorly of their operational structure, but did suggest the driving parahuman behind their organization was as powerful as would be expected.
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Yeah, Cauldron is relying way too much on the Path for their own good. And the good of the rest of the world, if Worm's author can be trusted : Path to Victory is more like Path to Pyrrhic Victory, subtly sabotaging Cauldron to make the world as shitty as possible.
 
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Nimeroni said:
Yeah, Cauldron is relying way too much on the Path for their own good. And the good of the rest of the world, if Worm's author can be trusted : Path to Victory is more like Path to Pyrrhic Victory (subtly sabotaging Cauldron).
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Well, if you guys remember well, without it, it would be something more like No Path To Victory At All.

People talking shit about Cauldron trusting PtV too much, even if it was literally everything they had.

Its like saying to a man that has nothing but the stars to guide his way that he shouldn't trust in it because it could be wrong. Nothing much to do when it's the only thing they have.

More than that, as said before, is not like Apeiron ever acted outside of what their fake parameters say, at least nothing that they could see/sense, so it's like expecting a normal person to randomly not trust it's eyes without any warning or clue that something could be wrong with it.
 
So, with the new additions, Cultivation & Unnatural Skill: Naturecraft that boosts it.

Others cite Jurai Tree Ships.

But will he grow a World Tree Yggdistral ( sp )

As in a mobile world all based with Washu Hometech?

Does the Warhammer Servo Skulls see God Trees as Blasphemy?
 
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Anemic said:
More than that, as said before, is not like Apeiron ever acted outside of what their fake parameters say, at least nothing that they could see/sense, so it's like expecting a normal person to randomly not trust it's eyes without any warning or clue that something could be wrong with it.
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I'm not saying they should automatically deduce that Apeiron have anti-precog that feed false data. Accord only got that part because he had access to the precogs of multiple organisations and found the common points behind all of them.

But when you are consistently wrong in your predictions (as Accord said), it's a sign your model don't work, so you go back to the drawing board.

Loki_silver2 said:
Aisha is now Lord let's Joe interact with us.
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Aisha is the most "normal" character.
 
It was fantastic to read about Director Armstrong. It's really nice to have someone that Apeiron can talk with.

It continues to be fun when casual acts from Apeiron and company overshadows what Apeiron actually mean to what they think he mean.

It was very refreshing that Accord managed to take a step back to see through the illusion of having a 'handle' on the situation. Everything from Apeiron's altruistic intentions and the precog obstruction effect. Fantastic!
 
LordRoustabout said:
It was more surprising that Cauldron had so definitively failed to recognize what they were facing. Honestly, Accord was somewhat disappointed. What he had assumed to be competence was obviously buoyed by the prodigious abilities of the Boogeyman. The inability to even consider the possibility of subversion of that asset spoke poorly of their operational structure, but did suggest the driving parahuman behind their organization was as powerful as would be expected.
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Accord discovers one of the fundamental truths about Worm.
 
LordRoustabout said:
"We're going to end up with a giant tree, aren't we?"
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TerraBull said:
So, with the new additions, Cultivation & Unnatural Skill: Naturecraft that boosts it.

Others cite Jurai Tree Ships.

But will he grow a World Tree Yggdistral ( sp )
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But what sort of seed would Joe choose to grow a Yggdrasil ShiftShip from?

LordRoustabout said:
'Top Ten Memes of 2010'
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MEMES CONTROL HISTORY!
 
Vysirez said:
Why would that be the default interpretation. I mean it's not hugely out of scope, just seems odd that he defaults to yet another power move as opposed to testing new technology or abilities. I mean Joe is a tinker. The concept of testing is pretty much built in. I know I had out of context knowledge as a reader, but the idea that they might be testing something by removing a pointless annoying meme makes a lot more sense then yet another power play. Now that doesn't really make the ability less scary, but it changes the perception of CF's actions.
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They believe that because of a mix of things.

The first is Joe's anti thinker measures are causing thinkers to develop an incredibly incorrect model of Joe.

Next they're not willing to go back on their wrong assumptions and our trying to make them fit the new information they're still convinced Joe's a mad scientist tinker and testing doesn't really fit a mad scientist I mean there's a reason miss I put bombs in people's heads and don't even know what they do has cancer.

A bad model plus a wrong classification means they're ending up with garbage in garbage out. Which is further exacerbated by their overreliant on thinkers.
 
BananaBuddy said:
It makes me think, that now the PRT know that Apeiron worked with the elite. if they find out about Uppercrust's healing they might assume the deal was help with dealing with the hostage situation in exchange for healing, Instead of Uppercrust selling out completely.

I have been looking forward to the call with Armstrong for a while and loved it.

also love seeing Accord being the only guy on the outside understand whats going on and instead of panicking he calming figures out what he needs to do and it working on "self improvement"

Also Aisha only you could come in closer contact with an eldritch memory monster and use its power to delete a meme.
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Yeah, not all that unexpected of the man with homicidal levels of OCD to put two and two together from just seeing the whiteness of Aperions's gloves and his cloaks behavior. There is a BIG difference between extrospective and introspective OCD. It primarily lies in the expression of how you react to your surrounding. Are you playing to make everything square in your head 'fit' and thus manifest it into your environment (Aperion), or the opposite (Accord). We are seeing the interplay between both poles. Game recognizes game.

Aisha is really good at breaking the chain of thought that sort of self-referential bounded behavior finds typical from those sort of maladjustments. The no nonsense attitude and focus on functional results is refreshing and lets Aperion breathe when he is about to fall into himself. Its really quite endearing.

Survey is willing and does create reports specifically tailored to make comprehension easier for Aisha which is a nice show of humility for an AI tacitly acknowledging that for all Aisha's failings and shortcomings, she is is still the closest thing to Aperion, and is willing to work around her proclivities if only so to help Aperion on a tangential path.

Or allegorically, "Survey has forgotten the road. But she is not above arming an allied force with a chainsaw sword and pointing them at a defenseless jungle. The sword also shoots fire for some unfathomable reason; for efficiency, probably? She will be along later to follow the new road."
 
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So unless the addendum earned points which I doubt the bank is currently 500 making the next roll for 700. Pretty good chapter and hopefully no-one will start up the nothing happened claims over it again but one thing I didn't get was Joe considering renaming the healed Case 53s as Case 122s given they are linearly labelled I could understand if it were 71 or even a few higher if others had been created but this implies there's some significance to 122 that I'm missing anyone know what that is?
 
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So what happens if/can Aisha zap Scion's memory of the Cycle?
Because that seems like something that would throw a mighty big spanner into the works…

The interactions with the secondary characters are always fun and a good insight into how people without our level of access feel about the situation.

Accord is interesting because while he seems to be aware that his past actions would annoy Apeiron, he doesn't seem to have related that to the Travellers, or selling out Perdition, or how that will look when Joe finally reads through Coil's dossiers.

(some have been spotted already):
LordRoustabout said:
shrugged. "It was a bit of a pardine shift."

More than a bit of a pardine shift, really
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Paradigm, probably.
LordRoustabout said:
more fidelity that should really be possible.
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Than
LordRoustabout said:
everything that Uppdecrust had been doing
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Uppercrust
LordRoustabout said:
"A regrettably accurate." Director Armstrong said.
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Accurate…? Summary or description I'd guess.
LordRoustabout said:
something should have been done about their situation by not, but between the
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Now
LordRoustabout said:
Not on sight.
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Pretty sure this should be "site" as in location rather than vision.
LordRoustabout said:
As Ashai squeezed down
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Aisha
LordRoustabout said:
The glow from her hand had. Energy flowed from her eyes
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Had what? Moved? Spread out?
LordRoustabout said:
A merger price to buy their silence on the matter
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Not sure about this one, maybe "meagre" price?
 
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Tackyseven said:
Accord instantly became my favorite non joe perspective which is pretty crazy considering the competition he has in this fic because everyone is written well, it's purely because he's one of the few that see's through the bs while also having a much bigger perspective then almost anyone else
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He's always been my favorite perspective just because he gives a good view of the situation outside Brockton, as best it could be understood. The only time we had better was when the Chubster interlude's told us what the national PRT was thinking.
 
Tackyseven said:
I mean what else would it be in their eyes? if the only thing you knew was that leethe is the most powerful stranger around and her leader...another stranger uses his vast stranger power to add a forced title in every person on earths thoughts who thinks about him? If the enigmtic tinker thing had not happened I would agree with you easier
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I kind of suggested a more likely interpretation. They have already decided Joe is a power tinker, so I would assume that him doing something with Lethe's powers would be high up on the list of possibilities. Though I guess there isn't any reason it can't be both.

tvo770 said:
They believe that because of a mix of things.

The first is Joe's anti thinker measures are causing thinkers to develop an incredibly incorrect model of Joe.

Next they're not willing to go back on their wrong assumptions and our trying to make them fit the new information they're still convinced Joe's a mad scientist tinker and testing doesn't really fit a mad scientist I mean there's a reason miss I put bombs in people's heads and don't even know what they do has cancer.

A bad model plus a wrong classification means they're ending up with garbage in garbage out. Which is further exacerbated by their overreliant on thinkers.
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I hadn't thought about it possibly being something pushed by Joe's anti thinker measures, that is possible. As far as doubling down on assumptions, it would be more plausible if this was a PRT analyst, but Othello isn't with the PRT. I guess it's possible that the PRT groupthink has infected him somewhat, since he clearly has access to at least some of their data.

I want to note that this isn't intended as an objection to the writing or story on this point, just wondering about why everyone is so mono focused on one perspective for Joe. I can see it with ENE PRT, with Piggot pushing that idea constantly, and I can see it spilling over to the rest of PRT a bit, but it seems like everyone is sold on this barely supported perspective. Though like I said, I didn't think about spoofed thinker support causing it.
 
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