Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Well, I mean... wouldn't Servant!Apeiron be a separate entity from our Apeiron, and thus not have the Mental Fortress Perk? I mean, if our Apeiron is in Earth-Bet then Servant!Apeiron can't be our Apeiron. I don't think there have been any instances in the Fate world of the Servant-version of somebody and that same person existing at the same time.
Gray, technically as recognised by the World.
I think the Fae thing has a mental effect as well.
EMIYA kinda? I mean he is specifically Shirou. A different timelines Shirou but he is Shirou. I also think that they are supposed to be completely identical until the grail war starts. So there doesn't really seem to be anything stopping a servant existing at the same time as a living counter part to them, they just generally diverge when that servant is summoned because the servant self never experienced meeting themselves.
Yes, Servant summoning only includes a fragment of the Heroic Spirit, crushed shard that fit into that one role. The memories that are incoherent with the timeline are not included.
The Servants are generally also weaker than their real counterparts (not ironclad). In order to get a Class with absolute Mental Protections, there'd have to be some legend out there of Apeiron having Master and Thinker immunity. This might not be farfetched since the Protectorate leaking documents like a sieve about Apeiron's capabilities seems to be the norm, and Thinkers are sure to be butthurt enough over it to try to make sure everyone knows that Apeiron's just built differently.
That depends, they are weaker than their HS counterparts, but are stronger than in life. Increasingly so for more modern ones.
Notable exceptions include Gilgamesh, Solomon and Arturia. Mana limitation/mentality, limitation of Servant container and weird Living Servant exception.

Techically speaking Arturia's parameters come from her Mana Burst and link to master, without those she's actually weaker than Rin.
Which is probably why she relies overly on that instead of developing Muscles after 15, Caliburn/Rhongomyniad/Avalon also affects her physiology.
It's been a while so maybe I'm remembering wrong, but wasn't Apeiron's Servant legend based on the unknown/unnamed craftsmen of the world or something? The people who may have created great works but never really got the credit or prominence; background characters to the hero's legend.

I could see a mythos like that offering some degree of information defense. Certainly not absolute, and probably more geared toward protecting his identity and predicting what he may do or make, rather than protecting his mind, but maybe broad enough to help in other ways. Plus being a sort of pseudo-gesalt could add another layer, having many identities and mindsets to draw from.

That said, the benefit of being a craftsmen is being able to make what you lack; if he doesn't have a needed mental defense, then just make something that can give it. Doormat behavior? Ring of Charisma/Confidence/Courage, etc.
Yes, sort of like 40k God Emperor. A mental gestalt of the unnamed mortal crafters of every legend in the Throne.

Archer Gil: *says as Archer Gil says*

Crafter: .....Remind me, Archer. Do you recall the people who crafted all "your" "originals"?

Archer Gil: Why would I-?

Crafter: Gooooood *golden blacksmith hammer appears in his hand* because we came for our paycheck. And, oh boy, are you late on your monthly fees.
Improvements maybe. Gil would respect the crafters. Given the number, a good chunk of his memories should be from Mesopotamia
In the great tradition of BCF fandom :

I ship them.
Tantric Rituals for the win?

I guess his stepmother would be proud though.


The real weakness is against Shards individually, but Joe's finally working on it.


How long would Joe take to become a True Magician in Nasu terms using only Nasu derived methods and passive boosts?
 
Coil already has Joe's identity. In his interlude he referenced the number of dropped timelines in which he studied Joe including when he sent his mercs at him while in his civies. All of which resulted in the same reaction of Joe fleeing with his tail between his legs which helped reinforce his believed supremacy over Apeiron and TT's control over him.
He doesn't. That's the entire point of Joe and Tattletale's discussion of his curse and whether Coil ever did find out about his secret identity. Coil had the opportunity to try and find out early on, but by then Joe hadn't been that big of a deal for Coil so he didn't bother. By the time Joe was meeting Tattletale in person but still weak enough to be taken down by his mercenaries, either Joe wasn't carrying his ID or his precautions kept him alive or escaping from Coil's grip in the throwaway timelines.

And it inadvertently saved Coil from the curse the moment Joe applied it to his secret identity. If Coil even had a hint of Apeiron's secret identity, he would've used it to setup a contingency in the scenario where Apeiron became his enemy, and just even making such a contingency would've triggered the curse. Joe even joked that it was a shame that Coil didn't know about his identity since it would've saved him the need to actually do anything to take down Coil.
 
It is kinda weird that Coil doesn't know. That kinda thing is what he keeps Tattletale around for, and she does know. In none of his timelines he tried to get it out of her? I guess he could be going with the philosophy of plausible deniability; he genuinely doesn't know so no tricks (like the curse, but he was more likely to assume thinker) could catch him out on breaking the rules, but he assumes he can get it anytime by just forcing Tattletale.

Downside of a 2 million word story is I don't really remember any reason he wouldn't have gotten Joe's identity from Tattletale early on before Apeiron was a big scary name.
 
Curious what Joe could do if he had access to Eden's corpse/the Garden?
It would certainly make correlating things in shardspace easier. Maybe access to shardflesh would let him figure out how they do what they do.
Could he even find Eden's Sting shard?

As for Joe's ID; does Lisa know? I get she has a Reputation, especially in fandom, but she isn't capable of guessing someone's last name and family relationship from zero. If she could, Coil would never have let her out of the base. Not least because she would have known he was Thomas Calvert by then.
 
It is kinda weird that Coil doesn't know. That kinda thing is what he keeps Tattletale around for, and she does know. In none of his timelines he tried to get it out of her? I guess he could be going with the philosophy of plausible deniability; he genuinely doesn't know so no tricks (like the curse, but he was more likely to assume thinker) could catch him out on breaking the rules, but he assumes he can get it anytime by just forcing Tattletale.

Downside of a 2 million word story is I don't really remember any reason he wouldn't have gotten Joe's identity from Tattletale early on before Apeiron was a big scary name.
Curious what Joe could do if he had access to Eden's corpse/the Garden?
It would certainly make correlating things in shardspace easier. Maybe access to shardflesh would let him figure out how they do what they do.
Could he even find Eden's Sting shard?

As for Joe's ID; does Lisa know? I get she has a Reputation, especially in fandom, but she isn't capable of guessing someone's last name and family relationship from zero. If she could, Coil would never have let her out of the base. Not least because she would have known he was Thomas Calvert by then.

Lisa has been shown to have pieces of info narrowing it down significantly but hasn't been confirmed to know his surname or even his full first name beyond knowing Joe is an abbreviation of it. With Coil his hands have been tied on searching for it for a while because of the chaos the ABB were causing and he has been unable to torture Lisa since she was given the watch.

The key thing to remember is Coil is very dumb and arrogant even in canon he did things like string along the travelers with promises of healing Noelle (which he is also doing in bcf with promises he can get Apeiron to heal her) and showed off Dinah only to be made to bargain for questions and then scream at her the numbers must be wrong when they were lower than before (because they were the odds of his success and he'd just revealed Dinah and made that pathetic display).

Joe's repeated drop everything and run strategy in his limited early attempts only inflated his ego and combined with the time he successfully killed Joe with a sniper made made him believe Joe isn't a threat to him which he hasn't entirely shaken off.
 
It is kinda weird that Coil doesn't know. That kinda thing is what he keeps Tattletale around for, and she does know. In none of his timelines he tried to get it out of her? I guess he could be going with the philosophy of plausible deniability; he genuinely doesn't know so no tricks (like the curse, but he was more likely to assume thinker) could catch him out on breaking the rules, but he assumes he can get it anytime by just forcing Tattletale.

Downside of a 2 million word story is I don't really remember any reason he wouldn't have gotten Joe's identity from Tattletale early on before Apeiron was a big scary name.
Lisa doesn't know the specifics of Joe's identity either, because there was a distinct lack of trying on her part unlike with Coil's. Early on, I imagine that like Coil she didn't see the need to, but after the locker fight I imagine that she kept herself from looking for fear of Joe's reprisal and things getting worse for the Undersiders if Joe ever found out.
 
It is kinda weird that Coil doesn't know. That kinda thing is what he keeps Tattletale around for, and she does know. In none of his timelines he tried to get it out of her? I guess he could be going with the philosophy of plausible deniability; he genuinely doesn't know so no tricks (like the curse, but he was more likely to assume thinker) could catch him out on breaking the rules, but he assumes he can get it anytime by just forcing Tattletale.

Downside of a 2 million word story is I don't really remember any reason he wouldn't have gotten Joe's identity from Tattletale early on before Apeiron was a big scary name.
Lazy basically, he's too reliant on Dinah's power.
Curious what Joe could do if he had access to Eden's corpse/the Garden?
It would certainly make correlating things in shardspace easier. Maybe access to shardflesh would let him figure out how they do what they do.
Could he even find Eden's Sting shard?

As for Joe's ID; does Lisa know? I get she has a Reputation, especially in fandom, but she isn't capable of guessing someone's last name and family relationship from zero. If she could, Coil would never have let her out of the base. Not least because she would have known he was Thomas Calvert by then.
Yes, maybe like in that omake he could create a happy ending for everyone by creating a mini universe with limitless energy from the Kaleidoscope or his various Fiat abilities, as a home for all of the Entities
Lisa has been shown to have pieces of info narrowing it down significantly but hasn't been confirmed to know his surname or even his full first name beyond knowing Joe is an abbreviation of it. With Coil his hands have been tied on searching for it for a while because of the chaos the ABB were causing and he has been unable to torture Lisa since she was given the watch.

The key thing to remember is Coil is very dumb and arrogant even in canon he did things like string along the travelers with promises of healing Noelle (which he is also doing in bcf with promises he can get Apeiron to heal her) and showed off Dinah only to be made to bargain for questions and then scream at her the numbers must be wrong when they were lower than before (because they were the odds of his success and he'd just revealed Dinah and made that pathetic display).

Joe's repeated drop everything and run strategy in his limited early attempts only inflated his ego and combined with the time he successfully killed Joe with a sniper made made him believe Joe isn't a threat to him which he hasn't entirely shaken off.
Yes, it is strange to see his excessive arrogance. The assured confidence of someone's whose power will keep growing
Lisa doesn't know the specifics of Joe's identity either, because there was a distinct lack of trying on her part unlike with Coil's. Early on, I imagine that like Coil she didn't see the need to, but after the locker fight I imagine that she kept herself from looking for fear of Joe's reprisal and things getting worse for the Undersiders if Joe ever found out.
Joe specifically asked her, now I imagine she's weary of the PJO curses.
 
It is kinda weird that Coil doesn't know. That kinda thing is what he keeps Tattletale around for, and she does know.

Coil got unlucky. He killed Apeiron early on, but he didn't had his ID on him.

Next time he tried, Joe had Garment + Fashion protecting him.

Then March happened, and Coil / Tattletale got very occupied.

Then Joe cursed his name.

At no point could Tattletale or Coil learn Apeiron secret identity. They do know his diminutive (Joe), rough age and backstory (college drop out) thanks to Tattletale, but that's about it.
 
Coil got unlucky. He killed Apeiron early on, but he didn't had his ID on him.

Next time he tried, Joe had Garment + Fashion protecting him.

Then March happened, and Coil / Tattletale got very occupied.

Then Joe cursed his name.

At no point could Tattletale or Coil learn Apeiron secret identity. They do know his diminutive (Joe), rough age and backstory (college drop out) thanks to Tattletale, but that's about it.

Not sure if I'd call it unlucky when the wog implies it was the passenger steering things to minimise data Coil gained especially since those atks may have just been shard simulations from faulty data since lord has avoided confirming it and I'm fairly sure Joe avoided carrying id because of Tattletale. Joe also had fashion right from the start since it's what made him confident enough to go out as a cape and even when in his civvies he had something like a shinpad on to give some durability which is how he withstood Racheal setting her dogs on him.
 
Not sure if I'd call it unlucky when the wog implies it was the passenger steering things to minimise data Coil gained especially since those atks may have just been shard simulations from faulty data since lord has avoided confirming it and I'm fairly sure Joe avoided carrying id because of Tattletale. Joe also had fashion right from the start since it's what made him confident enough to go out as a cape and even when in his civvies he had something like a shinpad on to give some durability which is how he withstood Racheal setting her dogs on him.
This right here is the truth.

You have to remember that from the beginning, Joe had things that broke the rules of Worm completely. Fashion was Fiat backed so not even capes capable of negating powers could do anything to it. So the idea of someone having such a ability that was not linked to a Shard or identified by one would give faulty data.

And that shinpad was remade out of better materials if I remember right before the meeting with the Undersiders.

Afterwards, well events and Coils own choices screwed him over from directly identifying Joe himself. And Tattletale/Lisa was growing afraid of him and didn't want to have a reason for Joe going after her.

Because keep in mind, Joe's growth and actions have made her terrified so badly that she can't see him not having some reason to screw her over despite him not having one. He is annoyed with her choices and at himself because of those knives he made for them, but not enough to become enemies.

He just doesn't really trust her as much as he did before.
 
Each update happens two Wednesdays (or Thursdays depending on your time zone) after the previous, unless there's an Informational threadmarked delay announcement that says otherwise.
 
Each update happens two Wednesdays (or Thursdays depending on your time zone) after the previous, unless there's an Informational threadmarked delay announcement that says otherwise.
Same message, but I think clearer:

"Updates post every other Wednesday around 10-11 PM Eastern time. If something will disrupt that schedule, LordRoustabout nearly always posts a threadmarked delay announcement to explain."
 
Same message, but I think clearer:

"Updates post every other Wednesday around 10-11 PM Eastern time. If something will disrupt that schedule, LordRoustabout nearly always posts a threadmarked delay announcement to explain."

I normally see it drop here around 1AM EST (12:30 - 1:30) on Thursday so roughly 1 day + 3-4 hours from now. You can verify dates on previous chapters so 99.1 Tetra shows up for me as Sept 28 a Thursday. Are you getting it sooner than that somehow, or are you in a different time zone?
 
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This right here is the truth.

You have to remember that from the beginning, Joe had things that broke the rules of Worm completely. Fashion was Fiat backed so not even capes capable of negating powers could do anything to it. So the idea of someone having such a ability that was not linked to a Shard or identified by one would give faulty data.

And that shinpad was remade out of better materials if I remember right before the meeting with the Undersiders.

Afterwards, well events and Coils own choices screwed him over from directly identifying Joe himself. And Tattletale/Lisa was growing afraid of him and didn't want to have a reason for Joe going after her.

Because keep in mind, Joe's growth and actions have made her terrified so badly that she can't see him not having some reason to screw her over despite him not having one. He is annoyed with her choices and at himself because of those knives he made for them, but not enough to become enemies.

He just doesn't really trust her as much as he did before.
He trusts her fine. She's just super paranoid because of Thinker trigger reasons.

I can't believe I'm saying this, she's very terminally stupid. She doesn't put his faith in him and assumes he can't break the code, when even Uppercrust can. She's paranoid about kindness! What was wrong with her home life?
 
FYI,

New chapter will post at 4:30am UTC Time, Friday October 13th

plus or minus 10 minutes if the last few chapters are an indicator
 
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He trusts her fine. She's just super paranoid because of Thinker trigger reasons.

I can't believe I'm saying this, she's very terminally stupid. She doesn't put his faith in him and assumes he can't break the code, when even Uppercrust can. She's paranoid about kindness! What was wrong with her home life?
Actually Joe does not as much as he used to.

But yeah, Lisa is stupid but she is a cape. Her Trigger Incident was trying to figure out why her brother committed suicide with her parents not caring about that at all. And after she Triggered, she was used for her powers to make them rich while knowing that they didn't give a damn about her at all.

Combine that with living on the streets for a while and Coil's job offer being to either work for him or take a bullet to the head from the convenient gun held against it.

She pretty much cannot see people doing kind things because of what happened, what she experienced, and triggering. And remember this, Capes are insane by default. The sanest that we have seen is Aisha, who is a highschool student working with the Celestial Forge.

Who got sanity beaten into her by necessity of working with them!
 
He trusts her fine. She's just super paranoid because of Thinker trigger reasons.

I can't believe I'm saying this, she's very terminally stupid. She doesn't put his faith in him and assumes he can't break the code, when even Uppercrust can. She's paranoid about kindness! What was wrong with her home life?
Doctor: I'm sorry Lisa. You have a case of stupid, it's terminal.
Lisa: No!
 
I had the opposite impression. Mental Fortress dealt with the remaining trust issues on Joe's end.
He's not close and Mental Fortress does help him out.

Doesn't mean he is going to be providing gear anywhere close to what Taylor gets and has restrictions on what he provides the Undersiders. It isn't just Lisa but them as well.

Also, just to add this in. Mental Fortress further screwed Lisa up since he can tell every form of manipulation she can use. And hates not having some form of control over anyone that she can.
 
He's not close and Mental Fortress does help him out.

Doesn't mean he is going to be providing gear anywhere close to what Taylor gets and has restrictions on what he provides the Undersiders. It isn't just Lisa but them as well.

Also, just to add this in. Mental Fortress further screwed Lisa up since he can tell every form of manipulation she can use. And hates not having some form of control over anyone that she can.
It's more like he can't trust Taylor with any more weapons. Although she somehow managed to use his completely non-lethal protective armour to destroy a building with cultural heritage.

Professor Hebert would be so disappointed, although Joe's new enviromental nanobots should be able to negate the damage.

For the Undersiders, it's a combination of caution towards Coil, not trying to escalate their status further and maintaining their image as not being totally carried by Apeiron.
 
It's more like he can't trust Taylor with any more weapons
He absolutely can trust Taylor with any weapon! He can trust absolutely that she will use them with the same brutally effective efficiency she always has.
He just hasn't quite internalised that she's a student of those old school Kung Fu fight directors who understood that anything is a weapon if you can pick it up and hit someone else with it, even your enemy…
 
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